Ways to make money

As I expected, politicians answers. Let them eat cake!

It's pointless doing the point for point - because we're going round in circles. Hopefully when new photographers question whether they should join, enough of them will find this thread and they can make their own mind up. You had your say (y)

Just trying to be open and honest and answer your questions :(

Of course, I will discuss this thread in full with the other Directors on their return from Malta, (currently attending the Malta Institute of Professional Photography Convention).

We like you want to see an improvement in photography and we are constantly finding new ways to do this. All your suggestions will be taken on board and discussed properly. :)
 
So what does the SWPP have to offer the "really professional" wedding photographer?

Whilst I'd love to answer this question, I really don't want to step on the toes of the board administrators and break any advertising forum rules (perhaps I may have already stepped over the mark) :shrug:

Perhaps a moderator would be kind enough to let me know if I'm ok to answer this? :)
 
So what does the SWPP have to offer the "really professional" wedding photographer?

well you'll get to go to their 2013 convention which will be "the most memorable event in this history of proffesional photography" (yeah erm okay, if you say so)

this will feature many masterclasses which will be of (bugger all) use to proffesional wedding photographers such as

'nudes , whats the point'

'how wildlife photography can help your social skills'

how to create a proffesional blog in 90 minuites (i'm sure i saw that one as an article in digital photography a few months ago)

and

' sports photography'

The reason for this jack of all trades approach is that SWPP has umpteen sister societies covering just about every feild of photography and this convention will be for all of them - which is why when you click on the convention tab on any of the other society pages it takes you to the SWPP site :thinking:

Personally I dont think i'll bother
 
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well you'll get to go to their 2013 convention which will be "the most memorable event in this history of proffesional photography" (yeah erm okay, if you say so)

In fairness the conventions are always good, although due to the amount of alcohol consumed I wouldn't describe the last one as memorable. Infact my memories decidedly hazy after about 4.30 on the first day
 
well you'll get to go to their 2013 convention which will be "the most memorable event in this history of proffesional photography" (yeah erm okay, if you say so)

this will feature many masterclasses which will be of (bugger all) use to proffesional wedding photographers such as

'nudes , whats the point'

'how wildlife photography can help your social skills'

how to create a proffesional blog in 90 minuites (i'm sure i saw that one as an article in digital photography a few months ago)

and

' sports photography'

The Convention isn't and has never been specifically for wedding and portrait photographers. The same can be said for Professional Imagemaker magazine, we have had many different issues covering all aspects of photography from, monochrome issues, landscapes issues, architectural special, sports photography issues etc.

I really can't see why this is a problem? The Convention is the largest event in Europe for photographers of all genres to attend, learn, share, talk direct to the trade and of course meet like-minded photographers to build their network.
 
Radiohead said:
Out of interest how many directors need to attend a convention in Malta.

More than 1?

Maybe we do need to start our own org if we get jollies to foreign conventions. I hadn't considered that, like a numpty I was just thinking about protecting professional photography in the uk.
 
colintjones said:
The Convention isn't and has never been specifically for wedding and portrait photographers. The same can be said for Professional Imagemaker magazine, we have had many different issues covering all aspects of photography from, monochrome issues, landscapes issues, architectural special, sports photography issues etc.

I really can't see why this is a problem? The Convention is the largest event in Europe for photographers of all genres to attend, learn, share, talk direct to the trade and of course meet like-minded photographers to build their network.

And we end up with so called professional wedding photographers who advertise themselves as 'award winning' because they won a prize in a wildlife competition.

It's not just at the very bottom that the members take the mick.
 
The Convention isn't and has never been specifically for wedding and portrait photographers. The same can be said for Professional Imagemaker magazine, we have had many different issues covering all aspects of photography from, monochrome issues, landscapes issues, architectural special, sports photography issues etc.

I really can't see why this is a problem? The Convention is the largest event in Europe for photographers of all genres to attend, learn, share, talk direct to the trade and of course meet like-minded photographers to build their network.

so basically its not a convention for wedding photographers - its a convention for pretty much anyone who owns a camera.

and by the same token you arent really a society for wedding and portrait photographers, you are a society for pretty much anyone who owns a camera broken up into 'chapters' according to interest.

I've no particular problem with that , i just wonder why you seem to be pretending to be something you arent, is it just marketting ?

and because you don't limit your membership in anyway other than ability to pay the subscription fee, there is no particular kudos in displaying the badge, as you let even people like the OP do so

So all in all its hard to see what you offer to the serious proffesional who wants to network with other serious proffesionals, but does not want to be associated with walter mittys who claim to be proffesional but barely know one end of the camera from the other
 
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Maybe we do need to start our own org if we get jollies to foreign conventions. I hadn't considered that, like a numpty I was just thinking about protecting professional photography in the uk.

I think it's only right we support other organisations, especially when they heavily support us and continue to give so much to our UK based members.

Unfortunately, it's not a "Jolly" and whilst over there, there is plenty of meetings and work.
 
And we end up with so called professional wedding photographers who advertise themselves as 'award winning' because they won a prize in a wildlife competition.

It's not just at the very bottom that the members take the mick.

When they win the award "Wildlife Photographer of the Year" or "Architectural Photographer of the Year"...I think it's pretty clear which award and category they have won. :shrug:
 
you are a society for pretty much anyone who owns a camera broken up into 'chapters' according to interest.

I've no particular problem with that

One of the reasons for expanding the BPPA into different societies is for the exact reason Phil mentions above.

If someone was in the past to qualify with a landscape panel they would have been labeled the same as someone that had submitted and passed a sports photography panel (LBPPA).

Now we have very distinct Societies which clearly show what genre the member has achieved a qualification in.
 
Whilst I'd love to answer this question, I really don't want to step on the toes of the board administrators and break any advertising forum rules (perhaps I may have already stepped over the mark) :shrug:

Perhaps a moderator would be kind enough to let me know if I'm ok to answer this? :)

Any time there are complaints over service we always give the provider the right to reply. You've been challenged and called on what you're offering so feel free to defend yourself.

yeah but you let a completely untrained halfwitt use your logo to lend himself proffesional legitimacy he doesnt deserve - so why should he bother getting trained, and you clearly don't care whether he does or not

Totally out of order, along with a couple of other comments today.
 
Any time there are complaints over service we always give the provider the right to reply. You've been challenged and called on what you're offering so feel free to defend yourself.

Thanks Dod.

I know it's a busy forum and hard to keep on top of every post, so appreciate you replying :)
 
When they win the award "Wildlife Photographer of the Year" or "Architectural Photographer of the Year"...I think it's pretty clear which award and category they have won. :shrug:

Seriously?

We all know we can see what they've won - but if a very keen wildlife photographer wins some awards, then becomes a wedding photographer (lets say he's still learning but there's room for improvement;)). He's perfectly entitled to show your logo and proclaim himself 'award winning'. :cautious:

You're not interested in how that looks to potential customers,:eek: because it's 'clear' to you what awards he's won, and all of your members are entitled to show the logo.... etc. etc.
 
So what does the SWPP have to offer the "really professional" wedding photographer?

Thanks Dod for letting me reply, I will try and keep this as brief as possible.

In short we offer a range of services for professional wedding photographers, such as

  1. Training
  2. Mentoring
  3. Qualifications by submission of work.
  4. Business listing on our website
  5. Online Exhibition
  6. 24 hour legal advice line (UK Only)
  7. Sample Contracts
  8. Reduced insurance rates (UK Only)
  9. Free to join Bump to Baby leads schemes (UK Only)
  10. Discounts on accepting Credit and Debit Card (UK Only)
  11. Discounts from various Trade Suppliers
  12. Access to Monthly Image Competitions
  13. Professional Imagemaker magazine
  14. Forum
 
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1. Again many members do not wish to go down the qualifications route, it is not our intentions to discriminate against these members, so this benefit of membership will be continuing in its current form.
I have no recognised qualifications, but wouldn't expect to be accepted into an organisation without being able to demonstrate competence.

However, the guy in question doesn't understand the most basic of terminology, doesn't know what half the controls on his camera do, and - judging by his other threads - doesn't even know when he's using flash or not.

There's a significant difference between capable without formal qualifications, and shooting blindly on Auto, and to support those who are so willingly ignorant of such basic knowledge is irresponsible.
 
The whole point about this guy having the logo on his website is that it's misleading the public. These people could reasonably assume, by having an apparently recognised 'kitemark' on his website, that he is competent enough to me a member of a legitimate trade body. He appears not to be so.

Therefore, the unwitting public are being duped. And that's the bottom line.

Oh, and one more thing. What's this stuff about the "BPPA"? I'm a member of the BPPA - and that means the British Press Photographers Association. Is this another deliberate attempt to confuse unwitting buyers?
 
British Press Photographers Association was founded in 1984. Has some serious entry requirements.

SWPP-BPPA merged in 2000, with their version being (rather vaguely IMO) quoted as being established in the 1980s. For just £99, anybody can join for 12 months.
 
Thanks Dod for letting me reply, I will try and keep this as brief as possible.

In short we offer a range of services for professional wedding photographers, such as

  1. Training
  2. Mentoring
  3. Qualifications by submission of work.
  4. Business listing on our website
  5. Online Exhibition
  6. 24 hour legal advice line (UK Only)
  7. Sample Contracts
  8. Reduced insurance rates (UK Only)
  9. Free to join Bump to Baby leads schemes (UK Only)
  10. Discounts on accepting Credit and Debit Card (UK Only)
  11. Discounts from various Trade Suppliers
  12. Access to Monthly Image Competitions
  13. Professional Imagemaker magazine
  14. Forum

Wonders if my work is good enough to join. What is mildly annoying that I have often have brides saying "I booked with a qualified photographer" to find out that there have been no exams sat or qualifications earnt, merely a payment paid to be a member of what essentially looks like a club
 
Wonders if my work is good enough to join. What is mildly annoying that I have often have brides saying "I booked with a qualified photographer" to find out that there have been no exams sat or qualifications earnt, merely a payment paid to be a member of what essentially looks like a club

I wonder how many of us have photography qualifications but never used them as a marketing lever?
There's clearly an element within the industry that believe that badges and qualifications make for good marketing.
 
I wonder how many of us have photography qualifications but never used them as a marketing lever?
There's clearly an element within the industry that believe that badges and qualifications make for good marketing.
I am sure I am guilty of that
 
Wonders if my work is good enough to join. What is mildly annoying that I have often have brides saying "I booked with a qualified photographer" to find out that there have been no exams sat or qualifications earnt, merely a payment paid to be a member of what essentially looks like a club

Richard, from what I can gather about the SWPP, the only qualification you need is the ability to honour a cheque for £99 - exactly what mildly annoys you! As far as I can gather, you never need to have seen a camera, let alone be in the least bit competent to be a member! TBH, if I was a working pro and found something like that, I would be absolutely fuming, not just mildly annoyed! As you seem to be saying, the SWPP isn't a professional qualification, merely a fee paying (and I suspect, significantly profit making) club, run by a family, one of who is a member here.
 
I wonder how many of us have photography qualifications but never used them as a marketing lever?
There's clearly an element within the industry that believe that badges and qualifications make for good marketing.

Well I have a first class City and Guilds pass in Commercial and Industrial Photography and a second class Institute of Incorporated Photographers pass so what am I worth - all offers above £50,000 a year considered! :LOL:

.
 
Nod said:
As you seem to be saying, the SWPP isn't a professional qualification.

Just to clarify, by being a member doesn't entitle you to a qualification. To gain a qualification you need submit a panel of pictures, that are then sent off to 5 assessors, they then critique and review the panel and determine weather it is up to the standard of the qualification applied for.
 
But if you don't want to bother submitting anything, you still get the recognition those that do get. Is that right?
 
Mustardpics said:
You're right. Unless you're a working press photographer, you don't get in. And I reckon about 1% of members put the BPPA logo on their website.



Have a chat to Jeff, Eddie or Neil about the 'Societies' use of the BPPA acronym and their opinion of it! :D
 
:eek: well, I take a weekend or so way from the forum and all hell breaks loose.


Starting with the OP, who it would seem has vanished into the ether again, there really isn't anything I can add to what has been said, it has taken most of us who earn any money from photography many years of learning & practice to do that. Yes, there will be a few naturally talented people with huge drive and determination that can succeed much more quickly, but generally you have to walk before running [and in your case, possibly even crawling might be a good start]. I suspect this comment will either not be read, or will fall on deaf ears, but I can assure you that further threads of this nature posted by yourself are unlikely to be left 'live' so maybe you really should make the most of the advice offered in this one.

/mod hat off

As to the rest of it - a couple of points - the RPS don't claim to be a 'professional' body, they are open to all, of any ability, so I can understand them allowing all members to use their logo. However, and this brings me onto the others too, it is all very well for us, as photographers, to have knowledge of all this. A non-photographer looking for a professional will not know it, all they see is a fancy logo and that implies some kind of standards, which plainly don't exist unless that person does actually have a qualification with that body. Ask the average person on the street if they have heard of any photographic bodies, I would be prepared to bet that most would say no, those that say yes, will more than likely mention RPS - a tiny number may mention others if they have had to look for/use a professional photographer recently. I am an RPS member, but I don't display their logo, I am not qualified with them so feel I would be misleading any potential clients that saw it. That is my choice. I am not having a go at the RPS btw, just 'unqualified' photographers that use the logo, as the inference is there, like it or not.

However, when a body is describing itself as a 'professional' body, then like nearly everyone else here, I feel that only those that have reached a desired level should be able to display a logo to that effect.

Phil, FWIW, there are bodies out there that are doing pretty much exactly as you describe [just for example, ask the BIPP about their new criteria for wedding photographers, there will be no more panel of 20 images, you have to demonstrate the consistency in the work you are offering clients month in, month out, minimum 2 full albums, workflow and working practices, etc etc] where you can join, get training if you need it, no logo display until qualified, and no membership renewal if you are not working towards a qualification. Others use different methods, such as the ISPWP mentioned by Guy, which again, have a very strict criteria - such bodies are out there.

As I see it, the problem we have currently is persuading the client to look beyond the logo and do their research into what exactly that logo means......



Of course, the various bodies could accept that people won't do that and instead ensure that their logos are used wisely and not willy nilly by anyone with a few quid to hand over.
 
Thanks Yv, I know there are alternatives, im not serious about starting a new body. it's the bloody minded assertion that there's nothing wrong with the status quo that tips me over.

Particularly given the fact that every non member shares the view that it looks like a professional seal of approval when it isn't.
 
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