WCMUT....what cheered me up today

sphexx said:
Many/most of the“wild animals”they sell in the markets are captive bred :(.
Click to expand...

I find documentaries about it (often undercover) distressing ..distress coupled with anger. There's such a disregard for animals and bird life in SE Asia.

Indonesia. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...bird-markets-pet-trade-songbirds-iucn-traffic

The huge bird market.. Pramuka..which is in the north east of the capital ,Jakarta. http://flightprotectingbirds.org/te...rapped-in-this-manner-at-pramuka-bird-market/

It happens nearer home,too https://www.responsibletravel.com/holidays/malta/travel-guide/malta-bird-hunting

Cyprus. Much carried out on our MoD land There's been such an outcry here that the MoD have cut swathes of the trees the poaches hang fine net on to catch them. . https://www.theguardian.com/environ...lly-killed-on-british-military-base-says-rspb

France June 28 2021 https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-court-outlaws-glue-trap-hunting-of-songbirds
 
Is the netting of nest site bushes/hedges here in the UK any better? Or the (now outlawed but still continuing) hunting of foxes?

It's not nationalities that are the problem, it's a species.
 
Nod said:
Is the netting of nest site bushes/hedges here in the UK any better? Or the (now outlawed but still continuing) hunting of foxes?

It's not nationalities that are the problem, it's a species.
Click to expand...

I don't agree that fox hunting, as abhorrent as it is, compares in any way with what we see is going on in many other countries. Same for netting by builders here in the UK. That's done to stop birds nesting. It shouldn't be done but in Cyprus ,for example, (the Guardian article above) ..and Malta it's done to trap birds (they also use glue on branches) so the birds can be sold on the black market to restaurants or kept as pets. Regarding the sale of exotic birds in Indonesia it's done on such a scale, not that any scale is acceptable, that some bird species are at risk of extinction. The practice in Malta and Cyprus has had a devastating affect on song bird populations in Europe. It absolutely is nationalities that are the problem. At least here in the UK we've banned fox hunting , although, as you say, it goes on and the government has sent a letter to the building industry re netting https://www.gov.uk/government/news/protect-birds-when-building-says-james-brokenshire

Re your point about natioinalities here's a league table. Of course the common denominator is mankind, I appreciate that but beyond that the attitude in variouis countries plays the major role.

www.worldatlas.com

Best Countries for Animal Welfare

Austria, New Zealand, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom are the best countries for animal welfare. Learn more about world ranking for animal welfare.
www.worldatlas.com www.worldatlas.com
 
JohnC6 said:
I don't agree that fox hunting, as abhorrent as it is, compares in any way with what we see is going on in many other countries. Same for netting by builders here in the UK. That's done to stop birds nesting. It shouldn't be done but in Cyprus ,for example, (the Guardian article above) ..and Malta it's done to trap birds (they also use glue on branches) so the birds can be sold on the black market to restaurants or kept as pets. Regarding the sale of exotic birds in Indonesia it's done on such a scale, not that any scale is acceptable, that some bird species are at risk of extinction. The practice in Malta and Cyprus has had a devastating affect on song bird populations in Europe. It absolutely is nationalities that are the problem. At least here in the UK we've banned fox hunting , although, as you say, it goes on and the government has sent a letter to the building industry re netting https://www.gov.uk/government/news/protect-birds-when-building-says-james-brokenshire

Re your point about natioinalities here's a league table. Of course the common denominator is mankind, I appreciate that but beyond that the attitude in variouis countries plays the major role.

www.worldatlas.com

Best Countries for Animal Welfare

Austria, New Zealand, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom are the best countries for animal welfare. Learn more about world ranking for animal welfare.
www.worldatlas.com www.worldatlas.com
Click to expand...

So how do you feel about bird-ringers using netting?
 
JohnC6 said:
Re your point about natioinalities here's a league table. Of course the common denominator is mankind, I appreciate that but beyond that the attitude in variouis countries plays the major role.

www.worldatlas.com

Best Countries for Animal Welfare

Austria, New Zealand, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom are the best countries for animal welfare. Learn more about world ranking for animal welfare.
www.worldatlas.com www.worldatlas.com
Click to expand...

It's interesting that Thailand is lowly ranked but there are still a lot of organisations and people doing good work. Street dogs are everywhere but people feed and look after them, play with them even, ditto monkeys and elephants and just about everything else. It would be wonderful if the sizeable active minority could become an overwhelming majority.
 
JohnC6 said:
I find documentaries about it (often undercover) distressing ..distress coupled with anger. There's such a disregard for animals and bird life in SE Asia.
Click to expand...
You're quite right.

It's very nearly as bad as the way we treat impecunious humans here in Britain...

Tramp on bench.jpg
 
woof woof said:
I wonder if the person taking the picture offered help?
Click to expand...
No, I didn't.

But I'm sure these guys would have if they'd been there...

Salvation Army band at Guildhall precinct Exeter IMG_3553.JPG
 
Getting directly involved is something I've done in pre C19 times. You don't have to leave it to someone else.
 
sphexx said:
So how do you feel about bird-ringers using netting?
Click to expand...

Tried to get on earlier, Richard but something was wrong then I saw why. The server changeover.I see there's no 'Underline' option now.. Bold,Italics Text size/colour but no 'U'.

I wasn't actually aware of the process involved about how birds are ringed so I had to check on that. Having said that, thinking about it, I vaguely recall watching birds being trapped in a section of mist net of a TV documentary..like Countryfile or maybe the Spring-Autumn-Winter Watch programme . On an organised wildlife trip to Scotland years ago (Mull included) the group I was with were taken to an old-timer in the middle of nowhere..out in the hills and he looked after barn owls and showed us how he rings the youngsters. We were told that only those licensed can do it.... after training.

Here's what I found. The findings, by the author,Erica Spotswood, were published in 2011. It was the first research carried out into the the activity.
Here's how she came to carry out her research

Spotswood first discovered the lack of research into mist-netting while applying to study the Grey-green Fruit Dove in French Polynesia. When concerned officials denied her permit and questioned the safety of capturing birds with mist-nets, Spotswood realised that no comprehensive study quantifying the frequency of bird injuries during mist-netting existed.

She said...."I was very surprised to find that no study of this kind existed, because mist-netting has been around since the 1950s and is an extremely widely used and common technique for monitoring bird populations"


The research, led by Erica Spotswood, from the University of California at Berkeley, used data from organisations across the United States and Canada to assess the risk factors which could increase rates of injury or mortality including bird size, age, frequency of capture and the role of predators.

The results revealed that birds are rarely injured or killed by mist nets. Of 620,997 captures the percentage of incidents of injury amounting to 0.59% while only 0.23% of captures resulted in mortality. The authors then began to analyse risk factors which could lead to increased incidents.

Finally the team found that birds which were released with an injury were just as likely to be recaptured as birds without, meaning that injured birds continue to survive in similar numbers to uninjured birds, meaning the long term impact of mist netting is minimal.

Another source:
Mist netting is widely used as a method for the capture of birds (Figure 1). In recent years, for example, around a million birds annually have been captured for ringing in Britain and Ireland; most of these (85%–90%) are passerines caught in mist nets and, additionally, there are usually over 200,000 recaptures of ringed individuals (Robinson, Leech, & Clark, 2017). Mist netting is considered among researchers and bird‐ringing organizations to be safe and effective when carried out by trained and experienced individuals who follow published guidelines (e.g., Busse & Meissner, 2015 Gustafson, Hildenbrand, & Metras, 1997; Redfern & Clark, 2001)

I've used bold type to highlight particualr data..it's not shouting at you as bold lettering can come sometimes across as.

A third source stated:
Incidents of mortality occur before handling. We recommend that all Ringing Schemes should collate and make available data on capture‐related mortality. Overall rates of mortality associated with capture were low and support the use of mist netting as a safe capture technique, without undue bias from mortality, when used by appropriately trained individuals.

Ringing allows us to study how many young birds leave the nest and survive to become adults, as well as how many adults survive the stresses of breeding, migration and severe weather. Changes in survival rates and other aspects of birds' biology help us to understand the causes of population declines. Alongside other surveys and data, helps us to build up a picture of each population and whether they're struggling or thriving.

Data collected over the last few decades indicates a severe population decline of many UK bird species. Understanding which threatened species we need to support and protect, as well as the underlying causes behind their decline, has never been more important.

I also read that most deaths inside the netting are caused by predators in the form of raptors so recommendations were made on how to reduce this along with other recommendations to reduce injury or mortality.

We use this data in our practical conservation work, helping to create the habitats and circumstances that will help these bird populations recover, and hopefully thrive once again.

It seems to me that, weighed up against the data collected, not only for gaining knowledge of the habits of birds but putting that knowledge to use in conservation measures for particular species in the form of intervention be it here in the UK or wherever a species migrates to outweighs the minimal loss of life caused at the time of capture with mist netting. So..there's my answer to your question,Richard.
 
JohnC6 said:
I see there's no 'Underline' option now.. Bold,Italics Text size/colour but no 'U'.
Click to expand...
Click the 1st 3 dots in the reply box for more options its there...
 
JohnC6 said:
Tried to get on earlier, Richard but something was wrong then I saw why. The server changeover.I see there's no 'Underline' option now.. Bold,Italics Text size/colour but no 'U'.

I wasn't actually aware of the process involved about how birds are ringed so I had to check on that. Having said that, thinking about it, I vaguely recall watching birds being trapped in a section of mist net of a TV documentary..like Countryfile or maybe the Spring-Autumn-Winter Watch programme . On an organised wildlife trip to Scotland years ago (Mull included) the group I was with were taken to an old-timer in the middle of nowhere..out in the hills and he looked after barn owls and showed us how he rings the youngsters. We were told that only those licensed can do it.... after training.

Here's what I found. The findings, by the author,Erica Spotswood, were published in 2011. It was the first research carried out into the the activity.
Here's how she came to carry out her research

Spotswood first discovered the lack of research into mist-netting while applying to study the Grey-green Fruit Dove in French Polynesia. When concerned officials denied her permit and questioned the safety of capturing birds with mist-nets, Spotswood realised that no comprehensive study quantifying the frequency of bird injuries during mist-netting existed.

She said...."I was very surprised to find that no study of this kind existed, because mist-netting has been around since the 1950s and is an extremely widely used and common technique for monitoring bird populations"


The research, led by Erica Spotswood, from the University of California at Berkeley, used data from organisations across the United States and Canada to assess the risk factors which could increase rates of injury or mortality including bird size, age, frequency of capture and the role of predators.

The results revealed that birds are rarely injured or killed by mist nets. Of 620,997 captures the percentage of incidents of injury amounting to 0.59% while only 0.23% of captures resulted in mortality. The authors then began to analyse risk factors which could lead to increased incidents.

Finally the team found that birds which were released with an injury were just as likely to be recaptured as birds without, meaning that injured birds continue to survive in similar numbers to uninjured birds, meaning the long term impact of mist netting is minimal.

Another source:
Mist netting is widely used as a method for the capture of birds (Figure 1). In recent years, for example, around a million birds annually have been captured for ringing in Britain and Ireland; most of these (85%–90%) are passerines caught in mist nets and, additionally, there are usually over 200,000 recaptures of ringed individuals (Robinson, Leech, & Clark, 2017). Mist netting is considered among researchers and bird‐ringing organizations to be safe and effective when carried out by trained and experienced individuals who follow published guidelines (e.g., Busse & Meissner, 2015 Gustafson, Hildenbrand, & Metras, 1997; Redfern & Clark, 2001)

I've used bold type to highlight particualr data..it's not shouting at you as bold lettering can come sometimes across as.

A third source stated:
Incidents of mortality occur before handling. We recommend that all Ringing Schemes should collate and make available data on capture‐related mortality. Overall rates of mortality associated with capture were low and support the use of mist netting as a safe capture technique, without undue bias from mortality, when used by appropriately trained individuals.

Ringing allows us to study how many young birds leave the nest and survive to become adults, as well as how many adults survive the stresses of breeding, migration and severe weather. Changes in survival rates and other aspects of birds' biology help us to understand the causes of population declines. Alongside other surveys and data, helps us to build up a picture of each population and whether they're struggling or thriving.

Data collected over the last few decades indicates a severe population decline of many UK bird species. Understanding which threatened species we need to support and protect, as well as the underlying causes behind their decline, has never been more important.

I also read that most deaths inside the netting are caused by predators in the form of raptors so recommendations were made on how to reduce this along with other recommendations to reduce injury or mortality.

We use this data in our practical conservation work, helping to create the habitats and circumstances that will help these bird populations recover, and hopefully thrive once again.

It seems to me that, weighed up against the data collected, not only for gaining knowledge of the habits of birds but putting that knowledge to use in conservation measures for particular species in the form of intervention be it here in the UK or wherever a species migrates to outweighs the minimal loss of life caused at the time of capture with mist netting. So..there's my answer to your question,Richard.
Click to expand...
Actually, it never occurred to me that you didn’t know about netting for ringing so I only expected your last para.

it’s interesting because mist netting to catch birds for the pot is essentially the same and if done humanely arguably involves less suffering since the birds would be handled alive for a shorter time. It’s just one of those interesting conundrums ;),
 
sphexx said:
Actually, it never occurred to me that you didn’t know about netting for ringing so I only expected your last para.

it’s interesting because mist netting to catch birds for the pot is essentially the same and if done humanely arguably involves less suffering since the birds would be handled alive for a shorter time. It’s just one of those interesting conundrums ;),
Click to expand...

Birds for the pot ?? :eek: Are you trying to wind me up :D Can't give that post a like ..lol

You can't mitigate the catching of song birds to eat on the grounds that if it was done humanely it would be on a par with that for ringing. Anyway, I don't think you meant it that way :)
 
JohnC6 said:
Birds for the pot ?? :eek: Are you trying to wind me up :D Can't give that post a like ..lol

You can't mitigate the catching of song birds to eat on the grounds that if it was done humanely it would be on a par with that for ringing. Anyway, I don't think you meant it that way :)
Click to expand...

Don’t be too sure, I’ve certainly eaten thrushes on crostini in Florence though it was a long time ago, not sure if they still do them.

Better to net them and eat them rather than spray them with poison when they are a crop ‘pest’, as they do in some parts of the world — producing food for vegans no doubt :(.

I haven’t felt the same about eating rice since I saw video of the frog legs byproduct in India ‘harvested in much the same way as shark fins :(.

There are no simple answers.
 
A bit of self-congratulation.....I have finally got round to fixing our patio doors. We have sliding aluminium patio doors made by Magnet, I installed them 35 years ago and the roller bearings were shot, it was a two handed struggle opening and closing them.

I managed to locate some replacements online just before the lockdown and have been waiting until I could safely enlist the help of my son to replace them. A couple of hours effort this morning and they are smooth as silk now, requiring minimal effort. I had forgotten how easy they were to slide open.

I shall award myself a beer this afternoon after putting the cars away.
 
After getting my first telescope 2 weeks ago I finally worked out how to use it, right ascension axis and declination axis actually mean something now!. Miraculously the clouds cleared and I was able to locate stars and track them with the motor thingy, I've got a big stupid grin on my face.
Trouble is I'm knackered after looking after poorly son, daughter in law and 2 year old grandson today so I'm having a cuppa and off to bed.
 
This story is really heartening and whilst we hear ,daily, of negative news and acts of violence it's a reminder that there a some truly good people out there. I heard it on the Nolan phone-in last night and had to listen to it again to recall the facts.

It concerns a Nottingham man, Sean Reddington who has tickets for today's final and, via Twitter, offered two more to a deserving child, young person or adult . He deals with ticketing companies through his own business had taken a gamble at the time of the Denmark game which he went to, and bought 5 tickets. He was even offered £10,000 for one of them. He has a very good life and two young children and quote "wanted to give something back" He got 300-400 Emails from people in various situations. He went with one of the early Emails from a mum whose daughter,Laura , has two brain tumours. Laura has a bucket list of things she wants to do before she inevitably dies and raises money to do them. Her mum didn't just nominate Laura but a couple of other children in the same position like a 12 year old boy who she had no connection with...my thought was a child they'd met at chemo sessions. It was this that re-assured Sean that this was a genuine person. He tried to get both children to Wembly but it wasn't possible. He's spoken to the mum but not Laura.He'd sent the tickets to Laura because of the need for an address re the App. Nolan had asked him if he'd spoken to Laura. Her mum had told Nolan that she was overwhelmed and Sean said he wasn't looking for thanks but just wanted to give someone in Laura's position a special day out. Well, you know what these media people are like..they'd got Laura on the line, unbeknown to Sean but he strung Sean along saying it would be wonderful if he could speak to her knowing full well he would in a moment..infact he asked Sean if he would let him know how the conversation went if he met her and Sean promised he'd do that. Then Nolan said that they didn't need to wait that long and brought on Laura.. :rolleyes::) She thanked him profusely even said that she thought there were others that deserved it before her. Turns out that she discovered the tumours at her first year at uni..in 2018..She'd applied to join the Royal Navy Uni unit when she had an eye test and an abnormality was discovered and eventually it was found that she had two brain tumours. Grade 4 terminal brain cancer. Glioblastoma. She was given 12-18 months to live. From the end of 2018. She returned home from Uni and treatement started but they had to fund their own treatment..alternative treatment in Germany.It worked .She's at Manchester Uni now but suffers relapses.She organised a huge Christmas party for disadvantaged children in the Nelson area. She's an ambassador for the Brain Tumour charity and provides support for others who are told they have this condition. She also helps out at the local food bank in Nelson.

Kind of puts things in perspective..
 
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There's something wrong here. In the post at the bottom it has written penultimate line.. 'organised a huge...It's far too early..party for disabled children ...etc. I can't edit and delete the words 'It's far too early (no idea why thats there) because in edit mode it doesn't show.
 
JohnC6 said:
This story is really heartening and whilst we hear ,daily, of negative news and acts of violence it's a reminder that there a some truly good people out there. I heard it on the Nolan phone-in last night and had to listen to it again to recall the facts.

It concerns a Nottingham man, Sean Reddington who has tickets for today's final and, via Twitter, offered two more to a deserving child, young person or adult . He deals with ticketing companies through his own business had taken a gamble at the time of the Denmark game which he went to, and bought 5 tickets. He was even offered £10,000 for one of them. He has a very good life and two young children and quote "wanted to give something back" He got 300-400 Emails from people in various situations. He went with one of the early Emails from a mum whose daughter,Laura , has two brain tumours. Laura has a bucket list of things she wants to do before she inevitably dies and raises money to do them. Her mum didn't just nominate Laura but a couple of other children in the same position like a 12 year old boy who she had no connection with...my thought was a child they'd met at chemo sessions. It was this that re-assured Sean that this was a genuine person. He tried to get both children to Wembly but it wasn't possible. He's spoken to the mum but not Laura.He'd sent the tickets to Laura because of the need for an address re the App. Nolan had asked him if he'd spoken to Laura. Her mum had told Nolan that she was overwhelmed and Sean said he wasn't looking for thanks but just wanted to give someone in Laura's position a special day out. Well, you know what these media people are like..they'd got Laura on the line, unbeknown to Sean but he strung Sean along saying it would be wonderful if he could speak to her knowing full well he would in a moment..infact he asked Sean if he would let him know how the conversation went if he met her and Sean promised he'd do that. Then Nolan said that they didn't need to wait that long and brought on Laura.. :rolleyes::) She thanked him profusely even said that she thought there were others that deserved it before her. Turns out that she discovered the tumours at her first year at uni..in 2018..She'd applied to join the Royal Navy Uni unit when she had an eye test and an abnormality was discovered and eventually it was found that she had two brain tumours. Grade 4 terminal brain cancer. Glioblastoma. She was given 12-18 months to live. From the end of 2018. She returned home from Uni and treatement started but they had to fund their own treatment..alternative treatment in Germany.It worked .She's at Manchester Uni now but suffers relapses.She organised a huge Its far too early party for disadvantaged children in the Nelson area. She's an ambassador for the Brain Tumour charity and provides support for others who are told they have this condition. She also helps out at the local food bank in Nelson.

Kind of puts things in perspective..
Click to expand...


Had to love that post for the content. Although I didn't get any support from the Brain Tumour charity after mine (because I didn't know it existed), I do support them and their efforts.

Glad that Laura's beating the life expectancy prediction. (When I was given the consent form for my surgery, I asked the surgeon for a prognosis if I decided not to have it - 3 to 6 months was the reply... 6 months later, I celebrated passing my "deathday" and still celebrate every 6th September as my rebirthday since that was the day I was given a new lease on life!)
 
JohnC6 said:
There's something wrong here. In the post at the bottom it has written penultimate line.. 'organised a huge...It's far too early..party for disabled children ...etc. I can't edit and delete the words 'It's far too early (no idea why thats there) because in edit mode it doesn't show.
Click to expand...
It is there because you typed the C word ... ;)

... and it is far too early for that!
 
Tigger.ufo said:
It is there because you typed the C word ... ;)

... and it is far too early for that!
Click to expand...

You've lost me there,Heather. I just typed 'She organised a huge party for disadvantaged children in the Nelson area". How on Earth "It's far too early" got in there I have no idea. I do re-read a post ,sometimes twice because there are usually typos or something wrong especially a long one like that before posting and it couldn't have been there or I'd have seen it. It It just happen to catch my eye after my 'like' alerts took me to it. So, I hit edit with the intention of taking it out but in the edit version it wasn't there to b e taken outy It . was just how it was originally. I don't recognise an " I'm baffled" emotjo or I'd add it here.
 
JohnC6 said:
You've lost me there,Heather.
Click to expand...
C-h-r-i-s-t- m-a-s has been added to the swear filter it now reads post as
Christmas
 
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Tori_T said:
Maybe in a few years, Ryanspace will be offering discount orbital trips for a tenner?
Click to expand...
Get one of these, strap yourself to it and light the blue touch paper... :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:

Bloodhound on launchpad Weston Super Mare DSC01628.JPG
 
There might be a workaround for the c****mas thing...


ETA - there is! Self edited to avoid ophidian censure!!!
 
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Nod said:
There might be a workaround for the c****mas thing...


ETA - there is! Self edited to avoid ophidian censure!!!
Click to expand...
How about Chrïstmas?
 
A couple of weeks ago, I had an open reach engineer call, yet another outside line fault :rolleyes:

Today I had an email from BT, it seems they are refunding, to my account, half last months payment as they never got to me within 2 days.
I'm convinced it genuine, due to a few factors. Not least there was no click through, and half my postcode was included in the message.
Now the thing is they did get to me within 2 days...
Should I own up and refuse the refund?
But the email said, don't reply to this email, so I guess I wont :D
 
sphexx said:
How about Chrïstmas?
Click to expand...
How about rather than me keep editing the swear filter ( I really do have better things to do (y) )
Anyone I see mentioning any variation of that word before Dec. gets a ban until then ?
:p
 
Cobra said:
How about rather than me keep editing the swear filter ( I really do have better things to do (y) )
Anyone I see mentioning any variation of that word before Dec. gets a ban until then ?
:p
Click to expand...
Just testing :) :exit:
 
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