Wedding photographer problems and how to escalate

sorry, you say dust is visible in detail areas? that must be pretty bad dust!
 
andyrap said:
No I haven't. Will look into this as a third party view would be good. I've not requested every single image with issues be fixed (there was a lot), just the ones where it is in detail areas.



We advised our album choices in mid-January. It took another 2 months to receive low-res PDFs of the album to review, which were supposed to be fixed. First week of April, we requested full-res proofs of the album as it was not possible to review the lower-quality proofs for the problems. 2 weeks later we receive that. 1 week later when I've finished (again) reviewing them, we have the discussion about how displeased we are. That was 3 weeks ago.
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I think you do need a professional assessment. There are 3 issues here - the quality of the photographs, secondly - the management of dealing with the complaint, and thirdly the timescales involved

This isnt a critisism, it is some advice on how a judge or other professional will view this.. being fair to both sides - I think you also need to not say it is 7 months, although the weding was 7 months ago, it took till mid Jan to choose the prints... I have 2 clinets from last year who still havent chosen thier album images - its nearing a year now. One of the albums for those customers will take atleast 6 weeks to produce after the design is OK'ed. The design isnt done yet, as the images are not chosen etc. etc. From the point the customer says ZYX, it may easily take another 2 months, and that is assuming we dont reject the album, or have to re-work the design

When were YOU first aware of the visible dust issue?

To take the issue of copyright, the album maker, the design and the PDF's out of the loop, why not request a sample from say 5 of the images at full high res - i.e.request this: please email me: ... corrected image, at 100% size, as a quality = 100% JPEG, of crop of RHS of brides face in image 456 etc.. choose images that were used in your album. If the correction work has been done by the photographer, it will normally only take a hour or so to retrieve crop and e-mail the files, assuming he isnt mad busy on something else

What make album is it? There is a posibility the design work is being done by the album maker. Some companies are notoriously slow, but then equally the work they do is pretty painstaking and excellent

On the other hand - visible dust, in images presented to a clinet is pretty bad. Popping the captain fair hat on again - it is possible to be caught by it, even if you are the most careful photographer. I certainly have started the day with a squeaky clean sensor, and then had a dust issue from 1.00PM onwards. It isnt something you know about untill you get home.. and that was on a camera with no lens changes. On the otherhand, it only normally shows badly at F22 etc. which is the least often used end of the scale at a wedding

Also - in the cases where I have had a speck of dust appear, They have allways been edited out before the client was even aware of them. That is the normal ususal realistic face of photography

What does your contract say about delivery and quality?
 
I'm also courious about the dust, what is it your actually seeing, is it lots and lots of dust spots, a few big ones or what exactly? another question are they in the same places on each shot or different.
One last question did you ask him to fix all the images or just the album selection, and how many was that?
Wayne
 
I would like to see one photo with the dust on please.

My opinion is if it was really bad I would of just deleted the pic end of prob.

I only show what I consider my best ones.
 
Andy,

The letter looks pretty good to me. Just a couple of things - I'd change what you're asking for and the timescale in 3.

We request the following from you:

1) supply an acceptable set of edited and restored proofs to be provided within 28 days of the mark on this letter.
2) confirm a delivery time for the album once proofs are agreed.
3) confirm the above requirements within 36 hours of receipt of this letter.

Failure to comply with any of the above may result in legal action taken to refund all or part of all fees paid.
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to

We request the following from you:

1) supply an acceptable set of edited and restored proofs to be provided within 28 days of the mark on this letter.
2) confirm a delivery time for the album once proofs are agreed.
3) confirm the above requirements within 3 days of receipt of this letter.

Failure to comply with the above will result in legal action taken to ensure your compliance with the terms of our agreement

Cheers

Hugh
 
This image is one of the clearest examples of how the dust affected quality. Check out 1 o'clock
large-2.html


EDIT: OK cant get image to work. Follow link below and look at image 2

For reference, I've uploaded a couple of others http://homepage.mac.com/andyrapkins/wedding/index.html. Look around my wife's head on the door frame.

258 out of the 500+ images were affected in various levels of seriousness by this issue. Some more obvious than others.
 
Any chance of a few more examples (and larger if poss.) looks to me like the guy didnt clean his camera gear before shooting :nono: easily fixed though.

Would need/like to see a few more
 
Well, there is definately something there and looking at them you can see how some images would be more affected than others depending on what area the 'patch' falls on. From the three you have shown [and taking any cropping into account] it does seem the worse area is in the same place, with a few odd single bunnies in others. You have to assume its dust, though as already said, its rare you see too much of it at the apertures generally used in wedding photography...but if its bad enough it will show I suppose :shrug:

Good luck Andy, hope you get it sorted. The letter seems totally appropriate at this stage and I think you are right not to be naming him here where he cannot be defending himself or his actions.
 
Disappointing and that dust/dirt spots seem to be in the same place.

I was once at an airfield day and had a professional photographer take photo's of my car next to an Apache helicopter, plus other shots during the day.

The dust on those were so bad they couldn't be edited out - so bad it ruined all the shots, so I understand completely how you feel. I hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction.
 
I haven't got time to put any larger shots or extras on now - late for work already! It is visible on pretty much the first images of the day through to the end.

Agree, it looks like it wasn't cleaned properly or at all before hand. Also agree it should be easy to fix which only adds to the frustration of how long it's taking!

Thanks for the support everyone.
 
Am gutted it has come to this but will be sending the letter today. Was discussing with my wife last night and we feel it is the only choice available. It was the photographer who made the mistake and we are the ones who are suffering as a result of that. Why should we continue to receive poor service?

Will add a sentence about referring to the SWPP/BPPA as well. Hopefully the letter will prompt some action and an appropriate response to save us having to take things further.

Will keep you posted as to what happens.

Thanks, Andy
 
exif intact, and visable dust at f6.3?!?

that pretty bad isnt it, or would this be inside the lens or something??
 
Sorry just got back to this one again.
Great that you have been able to gain some good advice and lets hope it sparks your photographer into providing a satifactory conclusion.Please keep us informed of any updates. 'm sure we would all like to know how it ends.(y)
 
I think your letter is good.

The whole situation baffles me. I just can't comprehend how a tog can be so unprofessional. I clean all my gear the night before a wedding, but god forbid I had a dust problem like this I'd be up late every night to get the pics sorted ASAP. I'd be absolutely mortified to receive a letter like the one above (he deserves it though) and if this doesn't work then the guy clearly is a ****.
 
Hello all. Thought I'd give a quick update on where we are with this.

I received a phone call from the photographer on Saturday morning when he had just picked up the letter from the Post Office. He talked at me non-stop for 6/7 minutes (nervous I think), explaining reasons for delays, problems with fixing the dust issues, etc. He also told me that he had sent off for the album to be delayed the Monday of that week.

One excuse which really grated me was that he hadn't been able to devote a section of time to fix the issue because he had been busy with other work. My thought of course was that you should finish your existing jobs before taking other stuff on and further delaying customers who have already paid.

Anyway so, the album has been sent off to be manufactured. I gave the feedback that had we been told that instead of me chasing again, it would have removed the need to send the letter and that our main issue aside from the time delay is the handling of the case. Previously, I had suggested a refund for the cost of the images on disc (£300) would seem reasonable as compensation. He said he would 'meet me half way' on that but I told him I'll stick by what I originally suggested. It's ridiculous to haggle over it. He should just want it over with.

He also sent an email which was equally waffley covering the same points and had a slight apology in it.

So, it seemed relatively positive; he seemed to take on the feedback and the good news is the album is being progressed with the manufacturer now. He has suggested we discuss face-to-face to resolve amicably when the album is done. Unfortunately he is on holiday this week so has not been able to contact the manufacturer for a firm date but I feel we've made progress.

Will keep you posted.

Andy
 
andyrap said:
Will keep you posted.

Andy
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Hi Andy,

What a story! I'm fairly adept at restoring images without blowing the trumpet too hard, I'd be more than happy to have a go at restoring the images at no cost. Raw would be preferable.

Send me a PM if it's of any help (y)
 
thats a LOT of dust
 
Andy,

By all means meet face to face, but you must keep written correspondence. You can see that your letter has sparked him into action.

For forum members:

If I were contracting a building job, I would expect to pay in instalments. Is this not the case with weddings? Its good to have a reasonable retainer until the finished product is produced.

John
 
Sorry to hear your tale and glad it's getting sorted out. I once did a shoot with a model who had a price tag on his shirt (DON'T ask!) and spent a good six to seven hours removing it from every shot it featured in. Not fun but it needed to be done. Very surprised about the lack of urgency in the photographer's response (particularly given the hefty price tag).

Hope you get it sorted. Is he on FreeIndex or anything like that? Maybe a review from you would be good to warn others of your experience.
 
Viking said:
Andy,

By all means meet face to face, but you must keep written correspondence. You can see that your letter has sparked him into action.

For forum members:

If I were contracting a building job, I would expect to pay in instalments. Is this not the case with weddings? Its good to have a reasonable retainer until the finished product is produced.

John
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This is a difficult one.. if i get a booking, then because I do only 1 wedding on any day, I then cross that day out of the diary. Because of the timescales (bookings between 2 7ears and 6 weeks before wedding) I phase payments. the most valuable thing to me is the date, the closer I am to the date, the harder it is to re-fill the date. For this reason i take 1/3 on booking, and 1/3 3 months before.

Having been stung by a couple blowing all thier savings on honeymoon, and then dragging heels on last payment for a year, I now insist on last payment to be cleared 1 calender month before the wedding

When you book a builder, the work is more immediate. Today I recieved the album order from a couple that married 14 months ago. From a sound financial planning point of view, we cant cope with such random income. Being self employed makes income random enough, having a clear payment structure helps cash flow, and keeps one in business
 
andyrap said:
One excuse which really grated me was that he hadn't been able to devote a section of time to fix the issue because he had been busy with other work. My thought of course was that you should finish your existing jobs before taking other stuff on and further delaying customers who have already paid.
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Thats what the hours between 5.30 Pm and 2.00 am are for - correcting fxx ups - or for the rest of us self employed people - doing the job properly
 
The problem the wedding tog has is it's now his busy time of year, he'll (if he's busy) have lots of new weddings to do, this takes up the time he needs to spend editing and sorting out his mistakes. If he hasn't sorted out his dust problems before long it's going to get really stupid, then he'll never catch up.
If he's time to go on holiday he's time to sort out the problem in my opinion. Wayne
 
UPDATE

We've had some progress. The good news is we now have our wedding album and it is very good indeed - beautiful. That's not quite the end of the story though.

I went to the studio yesterday to collect the album and discuss the issues relating to our problem. He acknowledged the fault with the original files, apologised for the delay to complete and again talked about some of the factors which had caused the time. He brought up the subject of financial compensation which I had suggested on the basis that my experience had been wholly affected by the amount of time I had to put in looking through the original images and album proofs in order to identify all of the issues.

As in one of our first phone conversations on the matter, he offered a couple of things as potential compensation: a studio / location session for us and some additional copies of coffee table books (we are due 1 anyway). None of this holds any appeal for us now so I stuck to my original suggestion that some financial refund is not unreasonable, again listing my reasons for doing so and my personal experience had been affected by all this (and at this stage was getting worse...).

In our phone conversation a couple of weeks ago, he had suggested I meet him halfway on the figure I had mentioned which would mean £150 back. I said we should discuss when we meet in person. It was apparent now that the £300 I had originally proposed - which was the cost of a CD - wouldn't be agreed to so I said I would be happy with £150 as he previously offered.

At this point, he started apportioning some of the blame on to me for the delays. Saying we had taken 8 to chose our original album choices whereas his workflow normally requires people to take 4 weeks, and also that there was a 3 week delay between him sending us album proofs to review and getting back to him again. I was absolutely incensed by this and had to point out that in my own spare time, I had to look at every single image in detail to identify glaring errors that remained, and in particular had the enjoyment of seeing my album taken away by looking at the high-res files again in detail on a page-by-page basis, annotating and marking in PS where issues were still there and obvious.

It was absolutely obvious he didn't want to provide any financial compensation as had several times brought up the offer of products to the same or greater 'value' which we simply do not want. After stating my position calmly and factually several times more, under obvious duress he asked the opinion of his business partner (who was present at his desk throughout all this) on the £150 refund. His partner said they should discuss in private tomorrow and get back to me then.

I mentioned the fact it had already been offered to me and that I would consider the matter closed on that resolution and hopefully be able to part on reasonable terms. That made no difference and I was told again they would discuss and let me know tomorrow.

I honestly can't believe how the evening went. It was one of the most uncomfortable 30 minutes of conversation I've ever had over something that should be so exciting and enjoyable. I was made to feel partially at fault for the issues and forced to go through the whole saga again.

If I were in their situation, taking everything into account - the dust, the delays, and most importantly my customer's dissatisfaction leading to a letter threatening legal action - I would have gone out of my way to make sure that customer left happy and with everything resolved. Knowing what my customer had stated previously, I would have avoided the need to drag through and discuss the whole affair again - which it is painfully apparent now was to get out of having to pay any financial compensation - and been ready with a cheque and apology to give out with the album. For the sake of £150 (out of £2300) we could have finished the matter yesterday, case closed.

I am annoyed I had to sit through that and also that I still have a cloud hanging over my head today. In retrospect, I should have demanded it be sorted last night, or left the album or something as now I have nothing over them other than how the experience might impact what I tell others about them. What's the line about do a good job and your customer might tell one person; do a bad job and they'll tell 10?

I've been over the whole story start to finish in my mind several times and I know we have been absolutely reasonable in our handling of it, and had a justified complaint. I think it was unnecessary and unreasonable to have to go through everything as we did last night.

Who knows what today will hold? Hopefully they'll come good on the £150 but for me this has been the final piece in a frustrating and unnecessary experience. It just seems crazy to me to draw things out like this and put so much back on me as the customer. They may be good photographers but their customer service has been bad and I don't think much for their business sense either.

Cheers everyone.

Andy
 
The problem is now you have accepted the album, your negotiation position is significantly weakened. You won't have suffered any tangible 'financial loss' now, and given it's very unlikely that you will every use or recommend this outfit to anyone regardless of whether they give you the £150 or not, there is little incentive for them to give you the cash.
 
andyrap said:
UPDATE


At this point, he started apportioning some of the blame on to me for the delays. Saying we had taken 8 to chose our original album choices whereas his workflow normally requires people to take 4 weeks, and also that there was a 3 week delay between him sending us album proofs to review and getting back to him again. I was absolutely incensed by this and had to point out that in my own spare time, I had to look at every single image in detail to identify glaring errors that remained, and in particular had the enjoyment of seeing my album taken away by looking at the high-res files again in detail on a page-by-page basis, annotating and marking in PS where issues were still there and obvious.
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notwithstanding the rest of your post - I'm kind of amazed by this. I wish I could get enough people to make their album choices within 4 weeks so I could base my workflow on that :) record so far is October 2007 and they've just agreed the album proofs.

I'd be mortified if one of my clients felt the need to annotate proofs in photo shop

Hugh
 
Was the 4 weeks deadline in the contract?


4 weeks would be excellent. I would like my clients to pick there final set in 48 hrs but alas its usually 3 to 4 months.:)
 
jolsterj said:
Was the 4 weeks deadline in the contract?


4 weeks would be excellent. I would like my clients to pick there final set in 48 hrs but alas its usually 3 to 4 months.:)
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And the rest... I still haven't even met up with my November clients to discuss their album :LOL:
 
jolsterj said:
Was the 4 weeks deadline in the contract?


4 weeks would be excellent. I would like my clients to pick there final set in 48 hrs but alas its usually 3 to 4 months.:)
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We still have one thats 2 years down the line and can't decide lol.

I have to admit I'm supprised he hasn't paid you the £150, thats a fairly cheap get out for him, and he's still left with a tidy profit, he's either really tight or he simply hasn't get the money.
Glad you got your album in the end, I was half afraid he'd go bust and you'd have got nothing.
 
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