Well, it's the lead story on the BBC ..

Pretty much yes we evolved from simple organisms to where we are now
The fossil record is there from primitive fish and before to modern mammals
The evidence is all there I've seen fossils myself it's just how you chose to interpret the evidence
How do you explain fossils ?

As far as I am aware there is no complete fossil record that can explain everything. If there was it would have been preached far and wide and the evolutionists would no longer have this missing link issue.

Before I give you my ideas on fossils, consider the fact that we know precious little of the depths of the oceans. Hell, we can't even really account for everything on dry land...but here goes...

Do you think it is unlikely that the break-up of Pangaea, then Laurasia and Gondwanaland, could have resulted in rather serious geological events and hardly on a localised scale. Do you think it is possible that this could have resulted in continental drift and / or the establishment of continents as we think we know them today?

With the possibility of this happening in a matter of weeks or months concurrent to the great flood described in the Bible and other ancient cultures, would you agree a fair number of animals of any and all species could have perished? After good old Noah got off the ark I do believe Google Earth did not do regular mapping for the first few months.

Now this is held to be around 6000 - 7000 years ago by Biblical accounts. Do you think fossilization of some of these animals could have occurred over a matter of 1000, 2000 or even 4000 years? Calcification and silicifcation is entirely possible. What extensive geological data do we have that is older than 500 - 1000 years?

Yes, interpretation thereof is important but interpretation is very much subject to preconceived notions...
 
All ancient cultures agree on a huge flood that is in line with the Biblical account of the great flood at the time of Noah. Would you call it completely impossible that fossils date from this era? Ahh yes...carbon 14 dating etc etc. Good thing carbon 14 dating has been proven faultless too.

What about dinosaurs? They existed for sure. Wiped out millions of years ago? I don't think so. Apart from Biblical accounts most ancient cultures have accounts of dragons. Oh wait, that must been handed down from the early human survivors of the meteorite that wiped out the dinosaurs...:p

If modern man did indeed originate in Africa, earth must have looked a good bit different in fairly recent times or early humans were darn good ship builders. There is so much we do not know, do not understand and can't explain. Clinging to wafer thin theories for the sake of postulating that everything simply happened all by itself is, however, not an option for me.
Yes I've read about the accounts of a great flood in biblical times and don't dispute that it happened
But the process of fossilisation just wouldn't happen in that time frame it's far too recent
It takes a very long time for bone and shell ect to be replaced by minerals that fossils are made of
Also how do you explain the layers of rock with fossils in age sequence the more primative fossils lower down in older strata
 
Sorry but you're not getting away with that, which version of Christianity is the correct one, and what proof can you give me to support that.

You quoting a book a bloke wrote is no more proof of Jesus being the one true Messiah than me quoting from Harry Potter.

Nope, sorry, we come back to the Bible as the authoritative Scripture.

There have been so many divisive teachings built on interpretation over centuries. Any and all "versions" of Christianity are correct provided they are tested against a few basic imperatives and guidlines in Scripture. There are a few basic non-negotiables. All the rest is detail which is wonderful to debate over but ultimately serves no purpose beyond creating further divisions and the establishment of more church denominations...like we don't have enough already.

My proof? Go read the Bible with insight, apply common sense, research, study...and ultimately choose to believe or not. You are stuck with that one and only book.
 
Yes I've read about the accounts of a great flood in biblical times and don't dispute that it happened
But the process of fossilisation just wouldn't happen in that time frame it's far too recent
It takes a very long time for bone and shell ect to be replaced by minerals that fossils are made of
Also how do you explain the layers of rock with fossils in age sequence the more primative fossils lower down in older strata

Why is it far too recent? Who has kept a daily account for hundreds of years? Who tested these observations? We read books in which clever people tell us how they reckon things should have happened and they base that on the guessing of others.

I agree it would take a long time but why could it not happen over a matter of 3000- 4000 years?

Who agreed on those age sequences? Who indeed confirmed that the more primitive species were in lower layers? Conversely, who said with absolute certainty that the species in the lower layers were indeed the more primitive species? How did they come to this information? Sure, at a glance it sounds plausible. Of course older layers should be further down. There is enough common sense at a glance that everything sounds plausible. Then the ridiculous numbers of millions and billions are thrown in to make it all work.

So, by the way, get Brian Cox and any number of his mates and see if they can agree on that number of millions and billions?
 
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You seem to believe in a book that by your own admission has been translated and retranslated several times. Then cherry picked for the bits that the Powers That Be wanted you to believe in. Try that using Google Translate or BabelFish and see how much sense things make.
 
You seem to believe in a book that by your own admission has been translated and retranslated several times. Then cherry picked for the bits that the Powers That Be wanted you to believe in. Try that using Google Translate or BabelFish and see how much sense things make.

Nod, I absolutely agree with you on those points. Thankfully a sufficient portion has remained intact and it has been verified by those in the know (!)

Fact is, there is an eternal value to Scripture and neither popular thinking, philosophy nor pseudo-science can explain the Creator out of the creation.

They try very hard, give them credit for effort.
 
and it has been verified by those in the know (!)

See now that's where your argument falls down. First, who exactly is/was "in the know" and how do you know if they were telling the truth or what they wanted people to know.

As for the creation. your point only works if there was in fact a creation something that should be eminently provable but for some reason never has been.
 
Nope, sorry, we come back to the Bible as the authoritative Scripture.

There have been so many divisive teachings built on interpretation over centuries. Any and all "versions" of Christianity are correct provided they are tested against a few basic imperatives and guidlines in Scripture. There are a few basic non-negotiables. All the rest is detail which is wonderful to debate over but ultimately serves no purpose beyond creating further divisions and the establishment of more church denominations...like we don't have enough already.

My proof? Go read the Bible with insight, apply common sense, research, study...and ultimately choose to believe or not. You are stuck with that one and only book.
Sorry that's b******t.
It's impossible to 'read' without interpretation, all of those religions honestly believe they're following the same (in your words) authoratitive scripture.

Am I to be put to death for working on the sabbath? How do you decide what constitutes 'work'? If I don't cook for the family who will do it instead? If we're all risking death, who's doing the cooking in your house on Sunday?

My eldest daughter is a hard worker, how much should I sell her for?

It seems your scripture, your truth, still leaves some questions, tell me what you believe is the answer to my queries?

There'll be more... ;)
 
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See now that's where your argument falls down. First, who exactly is/was "in the know" and how do you know if they were telling the truth or what they wanted people to know.

As for the creation. your point only works if there was in fact a creation something that should be eminently provable but for some reason never has been.

This is exactly why you choose to believe...or not.

I choose to believe that enough of the Bible remained true that I can live my life by it. I choose to believe that the timeless message in it is the one true way.

As for Creation, look around you...life happened. Earth exists with everything in it.

So, whether it all came to pass through a fanciful bang and evolution or Divine creation, something (or, as I believe, Someone) started it.

Either way you slice it you must make a leap of faith.

The bang and its cause has not been proven either. What caused it to happen? Where and how did it happen. What contained whatever the stuff was that went bang? Ascribing the origin of everything to such a fanciful and unimaginable event now THAT requires interesting beliefs.

Popular thinking seems to find it absolutely unbearable that life as we know it could have come about by Divine Creation and yet what it offers requires even greater faith in a much less likely scenario.
 
This is exactly why you choose to believe...or not.

I choose to believe that enough of the Bible remained true that I can live my life by it. I choose to believe that the timeless message in it is the one true way.

As for Creation, look around you...life happened. Earth exists with everything in it.

So, whether it all came to pass through a fanciful bang and evolution or Divine creation, something (or, as I believe, Someone) started it.

Either way you slice it you must make a leap of faith.

The bang and its cause has not been proven either. What caused it to happen? Where and how did it happen. What contained whatever the stuff was that went bang? Ascribing the origin of everything to such a fanciful and unimaginable event now THAT requires interesting beliefs.

Popular thinking seems to find it absolutely unbearable that life as we know it could have come about by Divine Creation and yet what it offers requires even greater faith in a much less likely scenario.
How exactly did your keystrokes create a post that anyone who can read English has access to? Exactly how?
 
Why is it far too recent? Who has kept a daily account for hundreds of years? Who tested these observations? We read books in which clever people tell us how they reckon things should have happened and they base that on the guessing of others.

I agree it would take a long time but why could it not happen over a matter of 3000- 4000 years?

Who agreed on those age sequences? Who indeed confirmed that the more primitive species were in lower layers? Conversely, who said with absolute certainty that the species in the lower layers were indeed the more primitive species? How did they come to this information? Sure, at a glance it sounds plausible. Of course older layers should be further down. There is enough common sense at a glance that everything sounds plausible. Then the ridiculous numbers of millions and billions are thrown in to make it all work.

So, by the way, get Brian Cox and any number of his mates and see if they can agree on that number of millions and billions?
You can see for yourself if you wanted to that the more primative species are in older rocks just go fossil hunting or or go to the natural history museum
But I think we will have to agree to differ as there's just no way that fossils are just a few thousand years old :)
 
Where and how did it happen.

Even the question demonstrates massive ignorance. There was no where. Space was created in the Big Bang. How you can doubt that when we can see and measure the residual heat from the creation of the universe, and measure its ongoing expansion? Of course we don't know all the answers yet, but that is what science is for, to learn, to discover.
 
My post about general relativity has turned into a debate about literal creationism, with the lifespan of the universe being measured in thousands of years?

Oh dear :(
Sorry I got drawn into it I couldn't not say something
 
Sorry I got drawn into it I couldn't not say something
Unfortunately you are playing Pigeon Chess.
Your opponent knows so little about science and scientific process that he can't comprehend the evidence that is surrounding him - so denies or disregards it.

Quite how anyone gets through life believing the earth is younger than artefacts made by people living on it astounds me.
 
Thankfully a sufficient portion has remained intact and it has been verified by those in the know (!)
Utter cobblers.
Codex Sinaiticus is generally accepted as being written c. 330-360 AD, and is incomplete.
Codex Vatinicus is of a similar age and also incomplete.

There is no contemporaneous copy of the New Testament.

In any case, have you personally read both? Got access to the Vatican's vaults? Must be nice. Give the Pope my regards on your next visit.
How's your ancient Greek? As you're clearly an expert, can you finally clarify if Mary really was a virgin or just a young maiden?
How did you personally verify the age and authenticity of the the Codices? Were you there at their discovery? You're bearing up rather well for someone who is at least 600 years old.

What is the earliest Bible that you have familiarity with? King James? Vulgate?
 
The BBC is riddled with Guardian readers - several insiders have admitted such, to the point that the Guardian opinion is the default position.

This Westminster sex scandal is getting out of control......some MP sends a note to woman saying "you look really attractive"...... Honestly...........AND ironically, BBC withdraws programme called "Ordeal by Innocence" as a man has been accused (not convicted) of anything.

Anyway, I digress slightly this is a very interesting thread. I think we would all agree that the world is a beautiful place of outstanding beauty.

One thing science had never fully explained is that If we accept the Big Bang theory that earth was formed when separate very large particles of dust, rock and gas smashed together causing a massive meltdown, how come earth didn’t end up in a complete mess and not the thing of beauty that it is? If you simulated this by throwing a couple of eggs or potatoes or any other object at each other you would end up with a complete mess !!
 
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One thing science had never fully explained is that If we accept the Big Bang theory that earth was formed when separate very large particles of dust, rock and gas smashed together causing a massive meltdown, how come earth didn’t end up in a complete mess and not the thing of beauty that it is? If you simulated this by throwing a couple of eggs or potatoes or any other object at each other you would end up with a complete mess !!
Science has explained it. What makes you think it hasn't? How much research have you done on this?
 
Science has explained it. What makes you think it hasn't? How much research have you done on this?

Well I’ve not studied it at University or had access to published papers. I except the science behind the Big Bang theory but I haven’t found anything on the web that explains how the earth came to be so beautiful. As I said earlier, if two eggs or potatoes collided in mid air you just end up with a big mess and nothing beautiful!

So if your telling me Science has explained it then please share as I haven’t found anything that answers my question.
 
Just Google it FFS. Wikipedia entry for "History of the Earth" is rudimentary but will get you started, explaining why the Earth is comprised as it is, and where the water and oxygen came from.
 
Well I’ve not studied it at University or had access to published papers. I except the science behind the Big Bang theory but I haven’t found anything on the web that explains how the earth came to be so beautiful. As I said earlier, if two eggs or potatoes collided in mid air you just end up with a big mess and nothing beautiful!

So if your telling me Science has explained it then please share as I haven’t found anything that answers my question.

Translation: I have no idea if anyone knows, as I haven't bothered to check, but I'll assume no-one does as this assumption sits nicely within my preconceived notions.
 
Just Google it FFS. Wikipedia entry for "History of the Earth" is rudimentary but will get you started, explaining why the Earth is comprised as it is, and where the water and oxygen came from.

Been there done that, months ago and many other links too. As I said earlier science doesn’t answer the question so there is a knowledge gap. Unless you have some divine knowledge?
 
Been there done that, months ago and many other links too. As I said earlier science doesn’t answer the question so there is a knowledge gap. Unless you have some divine knowledge?

I think we might be talking at cross purposes.

It answers why the world looks like it does.

Why you define that as 'beautiful' (a term beyond the nomenclature of scientific classification) is beyond the remit of planetary science. You need to start looking at social and art history and, specifically, 18th century romanticism.

Or in other words - "why hasn't Ancient Greek sculpture explained why my soufflé didn't rise? I've looked everywhere and there's no answer".
 
... but I haven’t found anything on the web that explains how the earth came to be so beautiful. As I said earlier, ...

The science you need to study to find why the earth looks 'beautiful' to you is psychology not physics, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so the scientific questions are 'how did you develop a consciousness' and 'how does that consciousness define beauty'.
 
I think we might be talking at cross purposes.

It answers why the world looks like it does.

Why you define that as 'beautiful' (a term beyond the nomenclature of scientific classification) is beyond the remit of planetary science. You need to start looking at social and art history and, specifically, 18th century romanticism.

Or in other words - "why hasn't Ancient Greek sculpture explained why my soufflé didn't rise? I've looked everywhere and there's no answer".

That’s a a crap analogy. No, my question was quite clear from the start. I’m not interested in romanticism but from a scientific perspective.

Venus which has no liquid water and whose surface is a sweltering 870 degrees Fahrenheit which is uninhabitable. Science does not answer anywhere, why all these other planets are just a lump of random matter and in there natural state ‘ugly’ and not ‘beautiful habitable condition like earth.

I once posed the same question to a Cosmologist at Jodrell Bank who basically said there is no scientific answer ! A vicar who was also in the audience then gave the Genesis lecture about the earth being formed in 7 days etc. There is equally no evidence of that either to add balance !

I have always been interested in this subject since I watched the Apollo missions in the 60s/70s. Hopefully, in my lifetime there will be a scientific explanation as to why. Maybe we will never know ?
 
One thing science had never fully explained is that If we accept the Big Bang theory that earth was formed when separate very large particles of dust, rock and gas smashed together causing a massive meltdown, how come earth didn’t end up in a complete mess and not the thing of beauty that it is? If you simulated this by throwing a couple of eggs or potatoes or any other object at each other you would end up with a complete mess !!

You cannot post such ignorant, laughable drivel and honesty expect to be taken seriously can you?

The formation of planets is totally different to the creation of the universe.
 
Science does not answer anywhere, why all these other planets are just a lump of random matter and in there natural state ‘ugly’ and not ‘beautiful habitable condition like earth.

Hey let me introduce to my friends Saturn and Jupiter.

2 stunningly beautiful planets. And there are in our own solar system!
 
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That’s a a crap analogy. No, my question was quite clear from the start. I’m not interested in romanticism but from a scientific perspective.

Venus which has no liquid water and whose surface is a sweltering 870 degrees Fahrenheit which is uninhabitable. Science does not answer anywhere, why all these other planets are just a lump of random matter and in there natural state ‘ugly’ and not ‘beautiful habitable condition like earth.

I once posed the same question to a Cosmologist at Jodrell Bank who basically said there is no scientific answer ! A vicar who was also in the audience then gave the Genesis lecture about the earth being formed in 7 days etc. There is equally no evidence of that either to add balance !

I have always been interested in this subject since I watched the Apollo missions in the 60s/70s. Hopefully, in my lifetime there will be a scientific explanation as to why. Maybe we will never know ?
It's an reasonable analogy. You've just missed the point because you continue to conflate 'beauty' with objective observation and demand that planetary science explain why you have a certain completely subjective outlook that owes more to sociology than it does to physics.

Science does explain why the planets are formed they way they are, and if you think it's "random" you need to go back and read those links again - there's a reason why the inner planets are rocky and the outer ones gaseous.

Beautiful and habitable are two totally different concepts and you confuse yourself by conflating the two.
Beauty - beyond the remit of planetary science, because the very notion of beauty is personal and subjective. Furthermore, the ideal of 'natural beauty' of the Earth is a relatively recent phenomenon- again, I would urge you to look at romanticism and the reaction to the industrial revolution.
Habitable is a scientific concept, but one which is hindered by the observer paradox - we can observe our habitable planet because it is habitable. If it weren't we wouldn't be here to study it. So if you're asking why Earth is in the 'goldilocks zone' - the answer is simply because it is. It's not a massive coincidence or the calling card of a divine planner - it's just where one planet happens to be. If it was somewhere else, there wouldn't be apes on it questioning why they are so lucky.

If you asked the cosmologist the same question you've asked here it sounds like she/he was giving an honest answer that you've misconstrued - science cannot answer questions of philosophy or aesthetics and makes no pretence to do so. If you wanted to know the meaning of beauty you were in the wrong lecture.


Regarding Venus, the explanations I've read are that it's closer distance to the Sun meant liquid water didn't form, but remained in the atmosphere starting a greenhouse effect, which became runaway as CO2 was then baked out of carbonates on the surface.
Earth was slightly cooler, allowing liquid water to form. This avoided the early green housing, and the CO2 remained largely within carbonates and the oceans formed from the water. There's about 50 Earth atmospheres of CO2 trapped in our rocks - if you baked out all of that and evaporated the oceans, we'd be like Venus too.
Venus also had a global repaying event - the lack of water in the mineral matrix prevents plate tectonics, meaning heat is trapped in the interior. At a critical point, it appears that that heat escaped during a global repaying event which would have helped accelerate the baking out of CO2. The greenhouse effect and repaving event seem to be a bit chicken and egg - without one the other might not have been so severe and Venus might have been more hospitable.
 
It's an reasonable analogy. You've just missed the point because you continue to conflate 'beauty' with objective observation and demand that planetary science explain why you have a certain completely subjective outlook that owes more to sociology than it does to physics.

Science does explain why the planets are formed they way they are, and if you think it's "random" you need to go back and read those links again - there's a reason why the inner planets are rocky and the outer ones gaseous.

Beautiful and habitable are two totally different concepts and you confuse yourself by conflating the two.
Beauty - beyond the remit of planetary science, because the very notion of beauty is personal and subjective. Furthermore, the ideal of 'natural beauty' of the Earth is a relatively recent phenomenon- again, I would urge you to look at romanticism and the reaction to the industrial revolution.
Habitable is a scientific concept, but one which is hindered by the observer paradox - we can observe our habitable planet because it is habitable. If it weren't we wouldn't be here to study it. So if you're asking why Earth is in the 'goldilocks zone' - the answer is simply because it is. It's not a massive coincidence or the calling card of a divine planner - it's just where one planet happens to be. If it was somewhere else, there wouldn't be apes on it questioning why they are so lucky.

If you asked the cosmologist the same question you've asked here it sounds like she/he was giving an honest answer that you've misconstrued - science cannot answer questions of philosophy or aesthetics and makes no pretence to do so. If you wanted to know the meaning of beauty you were in the wrong lecture.


Regarding Venus, the explanations I've read are that it's closer distance to the Sun meant liquid water didn't form, but remained in the atmosphere starting a greenhouse effect, which became runaway as CO2 was then baked out of carbonates on the surface.
Earth was slightly cooler, allowing liquid water to form. This avoided the early green housing, and the CO2 remained largely within carbonates and the oceans formed from the water. There's about 50 Earth atmospheres of CO2 trapped in our rocks - if you baked out all of that and evaporated the oceans, we'd be like Venus too.
Venus also had a global repaying event - the lack of water in the mineral matrix prevents plate tectonics, meaning heat is trapped in the interior. At a critical point, it appears that that heat escaped during a global repaying event which would have helped accelerate the baking out of CO2. The greenhouse effect and repaving event seem to be a bit chicken and egg - without one the other might not have been so severe and Venus might have been more hospitable.

Yes I read that too....
 
Yet you claim it's unexplained?!

You would have had to be part of the discussion to put that into any sort of context, it’s futile second guessing any of this. What she said was there is still a lot of science we don’t understand and we still have a lot to learn . There is still so much that is unexplained. Let’s face it, none of us ever stop learning do we.
 
You would have had to be part of the discussion to put that into any sort of context, it’s futile second guessing any of this.
Here was the context;
Venus which has no liquid water and whose surface is a sweltering 870 degrees Fahrenheit which is uninhabitable. Science does not answer anywhere, why all these other planets are just a lump of random matter
And yet the elusive answer turned up in my first year geology notes and I also found online. Fancy that!
 
Here was the context;

And yet the elusive answer turned up in my first year geology notes and I also found online. Fancy that!

Well it’s open source information what do you expect, it supports my question ! You did suggest, quite patronising that I searched Google earlier !
 
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So the information that 'doesn't exist' is open source and easily located on Google?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just utterly bewildered by your own argument.
 
So the information that 'doesn't exist' is open source and easily located on Google?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just utterly bewildered by your own argument.

Maybe I’m not making myself clear, or you don’t understand my questions /answers in context or a bit of both. But I’m not wasting anymore of my time with it. You are either being obtuse and / or truculent. You’re certainly not being of any help. Just one sarcastic comment after the other....
 
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