What do you want from the professionals?

Your a photographer, we don't do paperwork. Give it to an accountant let him/her do it all. We just went way way past the VAT level as well. A whole month sorting VAT return.... NEVER EVER AGAIN!!!!! Leave the paper work to those people with a huge social life, accountants! Thats the only crap thing about having your own business.... Paperwork.... DDP Dave has the right idea.
 
ZoZo said:
And your point is? :thinking:

Sorry, I really don't get what's funny about not wanting arguments and so asking for a healthy debate so that we can gain a level of understanding. :thinking:
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Hi Zoe

I doubt he was meaning it like that - more (I suspect :cautious:) that you were asking for no arguments in a subject that has historically lead to loads of arguments - so - like me, was expecting an onslaught - which thankfully doesn't appear to have happened :)

DD
 
DiddyDave said:
Hi Zoe

I doubt he was meaning it like that - more (I suspect :cautious:) that you were asking for no arguments in a subject that has historically lead to loads of arguments - so - like me, was expecting an onslaught - which thankfully doesn't appear to have happened :)

DD
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maybe we're growing up as a forum?

(or just don't care that much :p)
 
ZoZo said:
What do you want from the professionals?
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I hate shooting people and I have no interest whatsoever in wedding photography, so I haven't seen any of the specific threads in question.
But therein, straightaway lies part of the problem IMHO.

What I want from this site is to learn new things and improve my photography.

I'd like to hear opinions (good and bad) on my shots and suggestions on how to improve.
I don't care whether the commenter is a pro / amateur or somewhere in between. To me one opinion is as valid as any other - whoever it comes from :shrug:
What I would like though, is that if someone says "good shot" or "doesn't work for me" that they would expand on it and tell me why.

I think by starting the thread with "what do you want from the professionals?", immediately brings about a "them and us" mentality which is probably where a lot of the arguments stem from.
Not a dig at you Zoe, just a general observation.

Again, just my opinion, but the place where I see professionals being able to add most value to the site that amateurs can't is in sharing real life experiences of being a pro tog with those just starting out . . . not of interest to me, but I'm sure that lots of people would benefit from that.

Anyway that was my 2p worth :LOL:

p.s. Can we stop the accountant bashing please?
 
Cameraman said:
are you declaring that 2p :D
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Or not 2p..........that is the question.
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ZoZo said:
I am not interested in battles and fights, I have a business to run, but I am also happy to share my knowledge, for free, even though I run workshops for money. So it would be really useful to know, do those of you new/newer/amateurs/aspiring professionals actually want to know what things are like from a professional perspective, as it would appear that whenever a professional shares their experiences, particularly in relation to weddings, attacks start to happen.

Honestly, I have no aspiration to go pro so no, I don't particularly want to know about what things are like from a professional perspective. I appreciate honest C&C from everyone though - whether they are a pro or not.

As I say, I'm just not interested in that line, so if all that people want is the fight I know not to bother to share on anything at all to do with weddings. But if there are those of you that are interested, maybe you could let us know if you are after the professional perspective?

If people ask a direct question about wedding photography then all you can do is answer it as best you can. You have no idea if they are going to react badly so all you can do is try... and then retreat to a safe diastance if it all goes down hill.

Any help and guidance from those that seek advice, rather than from those who are not professionals who dish out the advice, would be gratefully received so that I can ensure that I am not part of the unpleasantness that I have no desire to part of.

As long as you are polite and honest with your responses then you shouldn't become part of any unpleasantness. I do think part of the problem with wedding threads that have gone bad in the past is a pack mentality. While what is being said may be completely correct and with the best intentions - it doesn't always need 15 different people to hammer the point home. People get defensive, take sides and don't always know when to let it go.

They have also become so "known" for being volatile (wedding threads that is) that people seem conditioned to respond to them in a particular way - e.g. there is nearly always a "popcorn smiley" comment to be found. Maybe everyone just needs to forget any badness that has gone before and approach wedding threads in the same way they would any other thread. Hopefully with an open mind.

TIA
Zoe
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i dont know who all the pro,s are,:shrug: so just mostly take advice from people then try what ive been told/shown, and if it don,t work try to clarify it with more questions. some of the lovely peeps on here are not pro photographers but know a damn site more than me about computers for example. if your offering free one to one lessons pm me :LOL: seriously though i think /know iv,e learn,t a lot from these forums and pro or not all advice is helpful (y)just my 2p worth and i don,t need an accountant i,m paye :D
 
hmm, an interesting one?

My whole purpose joining here, was to "speak" and meet like minded individuals with common interests and improve my photography skills along the way. I also joined an adult education course for a year at about £350! , and will categorically state here and now that I have learnt more here than I have on the course..... had to explain to the course tutor whilst on a field trip, why i was using a 10 stop ND filter and 30 sec exposure.... and what effect it would have on the image... :shrug:

Yep you read that correctly. I, a student, taught the tutor,, who has a degree in some kind of photography stuff......


What would I like to learn? If I am being really honest, I would love the opportunity to do a wedding, maybe for some friends or something, and whilst I don't claim to be a pro, and though I have the desire to, at the moment don't have the commitment, (buy hey lets face it, I could declare myself pro now, and start charging!!!) but I would love to learn the toips and tricks that pro's do to make a wedding go silky smooth, especially if the weather isn't playing ball.......
 
You certainly ask questions that are hard to answer!!

Having been fortunate enough to have attended the H4H session that you took I now have a lot more of an idea as to what really does go on behind the scenes, what sort of things need to be taken into consideration and I can see that there is a hell of a lot that you could say but do not. To give people who were not there an insight I have more notes from that oh too short session than from 2 or 3 longer sessions when I was studying.
From what I learnt I think part of the problem when people ask questions is that they don't know how much information is needed to get the reply the need in a simple way that would avoid a lot of the arguements. What would appear to be a straightforward question could have more variables in the answer than a lot of people may expect.

You do seem to pitch your advice on here at about the right level, all I can say is please carry on the way you are as you have so much that you can teach people and what I saw only scratched the surface, just perhaps ask for clarification of the question and the questioners level of knowledge of whatever the subject is if there could be a gap between the percieved ability/understanding and the answer you are about to give!
 
ZoZo said:
And your point is? :thinking:

Sorry, I really don't get what's funny about not wanting arguments and so asking for a healthy debate so that we can gain a level of understanding. :thinking:
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My point being that YOU LOVE fights and battles Zoe. Fights and battles follow you wherever you go. Fights and battles are your trademark. Just look at some of the threads you've been involved with since coming onto the TP forums. And what about all the fun and games at the SWPP forum?? I guess it's what comes from being a strong minded, opinionated business woman?

FWIW I have no problem with your critiques. You make a great teacher and I'm sure people can learn a lot from your suggestions. (Although there is a common phrase about "those who teach").

Anyway - keep doing what you do - but don't ask me to swallow the "I'm not interested in battles and fights" line.
 
Ryan, you are making assumptions about things you don't know the half of. But thank you for your opinion - interesting, why is it that men can express their views, but women are opinionated? :thinking:

Now, I must go off and 'do' as I am doing a photoshoot - my 6th since Saturday 10am. Is that enough to demonstrate that those who teach also do?

I shall bow out of TP for a while, I really am not interested in fights, or those who want to pick them. :exit:
 
Well done folks!

No only does the likes of WeddingHack and Hacker and Radiohead and Spxxx not comment on images much at all now, another pro who we could have learned a thing or two from finds it all too antagonistic around here.

Congratulations, we can all go back to "nice shot" now.
 
Ryan, I think you owe the forum an apology, if not Zoe alone.
 
i think zoe has been a bit over sensitive here, from what i can tell theres not been much bashing at all and just some comments on stuff that to me make a lot of sense especially the thing about "them and us"

regardless of your skill levels surely you should partake in the forums as much as you can and offer your opinions imho, the offer to give something back is great and just because some people have issue with your style/methods/whatever surely shouldn't be a reason to bow out

this is an internet forum anyone that's been using forums longer than a year should realise it's not all going to be peacocking and arse kissing, people disagree on things :/
 
ZoZo said:
Ryan, you are making assumptions about things you don't know the half of. But thank you for your opinion - interesting, why is it that men can express their views, but women are opinionated? :thinking:

Now, I must go off and 'do' as I am doing a photoshoot - my 6th since Saturday 10am. Is that enough to demonstrate that those who teach also do?

I shall bow out of TP for a while, I really am not interested in fights, or those who want to pick them. :exit:
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Zoe it does strike me from this post that you're making a few assumptions as well. I don't think theres any mention anywhere on a man v woman thing here.

We're all guilty of making assumptions, even you (or me) for that matter. You do have alot to contribute and it'd be a shame to lose you, but for what its worth, and its only my thoughts when I first saw this post I thought it not helpful. The reasons I thought this are it seemed to create a them and use attitude, I come on here as a photographer - not as as pro, or am and realise that I have an awful lot I can learn from people here, and hopefully I can give something useful back. My assumption (and it is only that) is you come across without anything to learn here, I'm not saying you don't have an awful lot to give, but learn as well.
For what its worth none of my thoughts have been triggered by the very valuable crit you give.

Hugh
 
....I'm going to start a creche with all the dummies I've found on the floor. Anyone know how to run one, and will I need an accountant?

Arguments are a part of life, and for my wife, a necessity.

IMHO opinion the caveat 'IMHO' usualy absolves the poster from whiplash
 
ryanyboy said:
My point being that YOU LOVE fights and battles Zoe.

(Although there is a common phrase about "those who teach").
Anyway - keep doing what you do - but don't ask me to swallow the "I'm not interested in battles and fights" line.
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This should do for starters.
 
boyfalldown said:
Zoe it does strike me from this post that you're making a few assumptions as well. I don't think theres any mention anywhere on a man v woman thing here.

We're all guilty of making assumptions, even you (or me) for that matter. You do have alot to contribute and it'd be a shame to lose you, but for what its worth, and its only my thoughts when I first saw this post I thought it not helpful. The reasons I thought this are it seemed to create a them and use attitude, I come on here as a photographer - not as as pro, or am and realise that I have an awful lot I can learn from people here, and hopefully I can give something useful back. My assumption (and it is only that) is you come across without anything to learn here, I'm not saying you don't have an awful lot to give, but learn as well.
For what its worth none of my thoughts have been triggered by the very valuable crit you give.

Hugh
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I have to agree. I've been reading this thread and trying to work out a way of inputting without it being misunderstood but Hugh has summed it up nicely for me.

Zozo, IMHO I think you have provided really good crit on photos and a very interesting (and valuable) POV on the threads I've seen. You take the time to write useful and detailed threads and I can only hope that you'll comment on mine when I get round to posting more.

However (and here's where I duck and hide) to answer your initial question, then I'd have to say what I want from a pro on here (as a newbie semi-pro with lots to learn) is exactly what you're doing but written in a more considerate way. As Gavin said, if a response starts with IMHO the responses will be more considerate too. Just IMHO, I may be wrong...
 
This forum's raison d'etre is the mix of abilities and subjects that make sure there's something for everyone.

I don't believe the forum needs any individual to step up on a pedestal and position themselves singularly as The Expert, rather a collection of individuals, each with different opinions, abilities and interests all contributing as they see fit. Questions that are asked on the forum then promote debate and everyone benefits - in fact I reckon every question ever asked has been well answered by 'the group'. Self-promotion and egos are best left at the door.

I don't go around shouting that I'm a wedding photographer, but if I'm on the forum and I see something I can help with, I will offer my input. If someone else disagrees I won't get upset and flounce off in a huff.

Common-sense FTW :)
 
pretty disappointed here folks. Zoe has been very helpful to many people on the forum here and now shes had cause to clear off. Nice going. (nice ladylike flounce though. good skills)

This is a photography forum, if people want to give up their time to share knowledge and experience with others then that is fantastic. We all have different views and opinions on subjects - we all need to understand that and keep it in mind when replying - as im pretty bloody sick of saying, if you dont like someone post you can ignore it, report it or respond, but if you do respond, make sure its a well reasoned and polite reply.

For the professionals in the audience, its not a willy waving contest, if you want to help people, then please do. If you want to have games of mines bigger than yours, I suggest you clear off and do it elsewhere.

There is clearly some previous with Zoe and Ryan, im not interested what it is but as it has now given me slight indigestion its become my business. Whatever the beef is, it stays off the forum, and if i detect an undercurrent of anything like it again then people will be getting short breaks to practice their business skills. :thumbsdown:
 
Right then

IMHO this highlights the problems with Internet forums.

No one here except for a few actually knows any one else.

Without knowing the character traits of a poster it is very easy to type something that gets misunderstood, as unlike face to face or even voice comms there is nothing to balance out what is typed. e.g. facial expressions and tone of voice. Yes there are smilies but not eveyone uses them.

We are all, or aspire to be, adults and better photographers. As such we have much to learn from each other but must remember that how we read something is not necessarily how the writer meant it.

We also must not turn into the " nice shot", "great work" comments for mediocre to average work from either amateur or professional. (Yes even pro's can take bad shots)
That serves no one well either, but, remember there are nice ways of doing it and not so nice.

However if someone posts a image in a critique section they should expect honest and open comments and be adult enough to accept that without throwing any toys out of the pram.

It is no good people saying "I'm off for a while" either, just politely agree to disagree for gods sake. We disagree on camera choice so we should be able to do it the rest of the time or shall we all just buy a pinhole. Oh no then it would be my shoebox is better than yours:)

A forum is made by it members and contributors we are better as a whole than an individual.

Rant over:)
 
I've nearly commented a few times ..... but thought why bother ...

But hey - here goes.

I'm careful how I critique because most of the time people don't want to know how it could be improved ... I used to do long posts as a mentor elsewhere with step by step examples - but again - it usually fell on deaf ears.

Pros do sometimes come across as holier than thou ... which sometimes is a combination of the written word and the person themselves and their people skills.

However - pros do have a lot to share - and I'm sorry many have a lot to learn about how hard it is to survive doing what you love.

So yes advice sometimes can be blunt - but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken on board. Rather the person could have worded it better ... sometimes teh person has responded so many times to the same question - they become curt with the answer - as nobody has listened or "looked" to find the information themselves.

HOWEVER

Pro's and the industry do themselves no favours by flouncing off in a huff .... it just reinforces others opinions - whether right or wrong ...

So .... to sum up

I'll answer any questions in a direct helpful way ... ask the same one twice and I may become a little blunt - so I apologise now ....
 
david1701 said:
blunt rocks if its honest and useful
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Of course but then the more sensitive types get upset when this happens, particulary when they feel the image is great.

Of course if the taker likes the image as it is that is fine but, if posted for crit someone somewhere won't like it for their own equally valid reasons.

It comes down to the "customer" being happy. Only problem with crit then is when the customer is also the shooter.
 
I was keeping my head down, but since this is in "Talk Photography" and not "Talk Business" I think I should be able to chip in.


  1. I want from professionals on here the same as I want from any member - informed and constructive critique, responses to any questions I may pose and the feeling of belonging to an integrated community
  2. I also would like an acknowledgement that not everyone wants to become a full time professional photographer - I know many on here share that view but some pros seem to have the view that everyone wants to join them if they are good enough. I don't - I couldn't afford the pay cut!
  3. I do think it would be very useful if we had more input from professionals who aren't in the portrait/wedding business as that is but one stream of photography. I know we can't force this and people photography is almost certainly the most likely route to commercial success as a photographer, there are people in the UK making money out of landscapes, wildlife, product, etc too.
  4. I would like threads about the business of photography to be contained within "Talk Business". I am competent at commercial issues and such threads are easier to avoid if they are in one place. I actually feel TP was a better place before the Business section and the emphasis it gives to wanting to make money to progress photography. It is a valid route for some but if you choose not to, it doesn't make you a less valuable member of the community or a less capable photographer.
  5. When the term "pro" is used, everyone is making their own assumptions of what it means - full time/part time, earnings %, etc. To me it isn't a useful distinction. I fell out with our strong willed friend from Liverpool over the definition of a pro a couple of years ago and it didn't really help either of us. I've sold pictures, I run workshops, I have a formal photographic distinction but I wouldn't class myself as a "pro" because I earn my living via other means. Surely we should just be looking to ascertain how those members with relevent experience can help those who want to develop head in the right direction?
Paul
 
if i can make a comment re: wedding photographers getting the arse - I have been on here less than a month - and one of the first threads i started was asking about tips for lenses for a wedding i am shooting in a month and a half. I spent a fair bit of time explaining the situation so that i didn't make light what is an incredibly difficult and high pressure situation to be a photographer - and all i got were positive responses, including a very kind offer of someone to come and help me out - something i've never experienced on a board before!

I'm not surprised some wedding togs get a bit precious about what they do - if someone came online and started saying they could do what i do for a living having done it for 2 months i'd probably be a bit sarcastic as well! I guess a lot of the time people don't think about the way other people will read into what you've just asked them, especially if you're not particularly polite in the first place.

(Don't worry wedding togs - i have a better camera body now than the one on my profile ;) )
 
matty said:
For the professionals in the audience, its not a willy waving contest, if you want to help people, then please do. If you want to have games of mines bigger than yours, I suggest you clear off and do it elsewhere.
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Mine is HUGE though.
 
I'm sorry if Zoe has left, but I doubt it (unless of course the mods know different), but I'm guessing with her occasional blunt (though usually right in what she's trying to put across) manner she's got a thicker skin than to be upset with a one liner above.

Ok lets get back to the question. What would we like from 'the pro's'.

Well, I for one have enjoyed reading about Studio setups, both big garden shed/attic/garage home ones and pro setups. I liked the technicalities of EdinburghGary getting it right in camera to minimise his post processing and the infinity wall exercise. I like to learn different lighting approaches and setups and especially enjoy seeing a great photo and then a quick explanation on what made it different, or how it was done.

Personally I enjoy TP as it's UK based, has genuinely helpful people and I'm learning all the time.
 
grumpybadger said:
...
Paul
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Well said Paul! :)

Like you, I was reluctant to post on this thread given the minor head-butting I've had with Zoe but it's an open forum and I guess I'm just as entitled to my opinion.

I make most of my photography money from weddings but I also make money from landscapes too... I'm in the middle of sorting out a load of pictures for the walls of a doctor's surgery as we speak. I don't class myself as a professional for the same reason as you... I earn more money working PAYE for my current employer! :D

I'm not precluding the possibility of ditching my current trade in favour of a photographic career but only if the time and circumstances are right will I even consider it.

Nobody's suggested that the working photographers on here should belt up... far from it and for what it's worth, I think it's sad that Zoe's stomped off and at the risk of being flamed, I don't believe Ryan needs to apologise either... What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that! ;) Just because we all use the same forum doesn't mean we have to spend all day agreeing with each other (although it'd probably make the mod's lives a bit easier).

All in my honest opinion of course.
Si
 
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