what flash if any

KingJohn

KingJohn

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Ive taken lots of photos with the flash operation (didnt know how to switch it off) but have been looking at those programmable flash units that have their own battery, lcd display, and can be setup to produce a huge flash of diffrent types.

Do i need one? If you found the internal flash didnt do what you wanted could you advice?

During my search to take photos of rain strands i was told an external flash producing more than the internal would help.

Right now im learning fast, i have ideas of what i want and so making a list of things, tripod too soon
 
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The only thing any of those "diffusers" are really doing is eating flash power... you're way better off setting the flash to a lower output (-EC). I.e. if you reduce the flash power it reduces the highlights it causes. Blocking the light with varying thicknesses of "diffusion" just eats batteries.
 
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KingJohn said:
Ive taken lots of photos with the flash operation (didnt know how to switch it off) but have been looking at those programmable flash units that have their own battery, lcd display, and can be setup to produce a huge flash of diffrent types.

Do i need one? If you found the internal flash didnt do what you wanted could you advice?
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Telling us what camera you have would be helpful.
During my search to take photos of rain strands i was told an external flash producing more than the internal would help.
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I'm not sure it would help. Rain drops aren't travelling that fast and the short flash duration of an external flash is more likely to give frozen drops rather than strands.
 
sk66 said:
The only thing any of those "diffusers" are really doing is eating flash power... you're way better off setting the flash to a lower output (-EC). I.e. if you reduce the flash power it reduces the highlights it causes. Blocking the light with varying thicknesses of "diffusion" just eats batteries.
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No different to shooting through a soft box with an off cam flash - only it's eating at the camera battery instead of the flash unit's. It's a neat little DIY modifier that anyone can do, and it does produce a softer, more evenly balanced light - no red eye of 'rabbit in the headlights' effect you get from the crappy on-board flash. Before I had a 'proper' flash I would cut up milk cartons or white foam to create bounce cards, it was always better than the bare flash. Nowt wrong with a little DIY, so it eats a bit more battery, but not all that much more than the flash alone - on board is never that powerful to begin with, just concentrated
 
Cagey75 said:
Before I had a 'proper' flash I would cut up milk cartons or white foam to create bounce cards, it was always better than the bare flash.
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Bounce is different... in a small enough environment the pop-up often has enough power to bounce and still reach the subject w/ some power. But a popup does not have the power to go through heavy/inefficient "diffusion," and it doesn't have the power to simultaneously bounce and go through diffusion (one/both won't get very far). And there is pretty much *nothing that can be mounted on the camera (pop-up or speedlight) that can provide "diffused light" at a distance of much more than 12". Anything that could would be so large as to obstruct the camera/lens. (*there are ring light things that kind of get around this limit)

And there is a big difference between a light source placed at (or reflected from) the back of a softbox, and diffusion material placed directly over/against the light source. It doesn't matter how big a piece of diffusion you place directly against the popup, it will never make the source any bigger... i.e. you might as well just put a layer of tape over it (which is another common/bad idea/recommendation).

If you watch the video the "bad" diffusion options look pretty much the same as the bare flash... they probably "scatter"/"enlarge"/"diffuse" the light just as well as most any other, they just don't block enough of it. Other than the cup, which was bad because "it blocked too much light" (his words).
 
sk66 said:
Bounce is different... in a small enough environment the pop-up often has enough power to bounce and still reach the subject w/ some power. But a popup does not have the power to go through heavy/inefficient "diffusion," and it doesn't have the power to simultaneously bounce and go through diffusion (one/both won't get very far). And there is pretty much *nothing that can be mounted on the camera (pop-up or speedlight) that can provide "diffused light" at a distance of much more than 12". Anything that could would be so large as to obstruct the camera/lens. (*there are ring light things that kind of get around this limit)

And there is a big difference between a light source placed at (or reflected from) the back of a softbox, and diffusion material placed directly over/against the light source. It doesn't matter how big a piece of diffusion you place directly against the popup, it will never make the source any bigger... i.e. you might as well just put a layer of tape over it (which is another common/bad idea/recommendation).

If you watch the video the "bad" diffusion options look pretty much the same as the bare flash... they probably "scatter"/"enlarge"/"diffuse" the light just as well as most any other, they just don't block enough of it. Other than the cup, which was bad because "it blocked too much light" (his words).
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Something like I used to make to bounce might be better for OP then, a mini bounce card. I never really though too much about the technicalities at the time, I was merely trying to avoid the side effects of direct bare flash. If I can find the tutorial or a decent similar one so he doesn't end up with an ugly obvious DIY POS on his flash I'll post it later.

The best thing to do of course would be just give in and buy a cheap speedlight, we all do in the end

In the meantime, here's about the quickest fix for on the spot you can do, and it works: https://www.diyphotography.net/the-party-bouncer-is-back-in-business-card/
 
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Cagey75 said:
No different to shooting through a soft box with an off cam flash - only it's eating at the camera battery instead of the flash unit's.
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Yes very different to a softboxed off camera flash
1: this one is tiny no matter what whereas a softbox can be fairly large
2: Soft light or rather soft shadows is a product of a in relation to the subject percieved large lightsource.
Two things is important to have a percieved large lightsource. Its physical size and its distance from subject. the closer the larger its percieved to be
Placed on camera this is both small and unless your right up in the "face" of your subject there is no way it will be a large light source
3: Off camera flash can be put where you want it and be much more efficient in producing soft light without just sending light any where and eating batteries
4: Any effect from light bouncing off walls etc will be depending on distance to theseand will thus not be consistent.

Cagey75 said:
It's a neat little DIY modifier that anyone can do, and it does produce a softer, more evenly balanced light - no red eye of 'rabbit in the headlights' effect you get from the crappy on-board flash.
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no, no and no see point 1 and 4 above
Red eyes is a product from flash distance to lens axis allowing to be reflected back to camera from the inner eye. Reducing the output may reduce the glow a little but not remove the effect.

Cagey75 said:
Before I had a 'proper' flash I would cut up milk cartons or white foam to create bounce cards, it was always better than the bare flash. Nowt wrong with a little DIY, so it eats a bit more battery, but not all that much more than the flash alone - on board is never that powerful to begin with, just concentrated
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Much betteer solution is to bounce a speedlight anyway giving you control of direction and contrast
Only situations an on camera flash can be usefull is if its articulating or youre doing macro shooting it through a piece of translucent plastic e.g. a disposable lunchplate whit a hole so it mounts on your lens, see point 2 above. Even that is not perfect since you have the light straight on but sometimes thats just what you need.
 
soeren said:
Yes very different to a softboxed off camera flash



no, no and no see point 1 and 4 above
Red eyes is a product from flash distance to lens axis allowing to be reflected back to camera from the inner eye. Reducing the output may reduce the glow a little but not remove the effect.



Much betteer solution is to bounce a speedlight anyway giving you control of direction and contrast
Only situations an on camera flash can be usefull is if its articulating or youre doing macro shooting it through a piece of translucent plastic e.g. a disposable lunchplate whit a hole so it mounts on your lens, see point 2 above. Even that is not perfect since you have the light straight on but sometimes thats just what you need.
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OP doesn't have a speedlight atm though and wants a quick fix, you could do worse than use the business card idea, it works in a pinch. Regardless, it's not going to work outdoors in the rain, which is where he seems to want to use it. Also, you do get red eye from direct bare flash even at lower power, we see it all the time from crappy phone cam flash on FB etc .. I wasn't the one who suggested merely reducing the power, this is where bouncing the on board flash came in. If it's all you got, then there simply isn't a better soloution until you do. Or just ramp the ISO and use ambient light

If we re-read the OP, flash is not really the answer anyway. He mentions strands of rain, someone pointed out that flash won't do this but instead freeze the drops. OP needs to learn more about ambient exposure, slower shutter speeds and how to turn off auto-flash I think. A tutorial on the camera they use would be the best place to look to
 
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Cagey75 said:
>SNIP
If we re-read the OP, flash is not really the answer anyway. He mentions strands of rain, someone pointed out that flash won't do this but instead freeze the drops. OP needs to learn more about ambient exposure, slower shutter speeds and how to turn off auto-flash I think. A tutorial on the camera they use would be the best place to look to
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Agreed and Yes so did I in another recent thread by the op
 
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I’ll ignore the above, try to simplify, but it might get complicated.
The OP wants to capture photos of rain

It comes back to my new mantra, your camera doesn’t ‘take photos’ it records the light reflected from an object. This is fundamental both artistically and technically.

The simple solution (without explaining the why) is to make sure the rain is between the light source and the camera.

Whether that light source is a bright low sun or a speed light is irrelevant (for the image), though what is relevant to the OP’s question is that if he’s buying a speed light he needs to buy one he can trigger off camera, along with a trigger.

On that note @KingJohn whats your budget.
 
Phil V said:
I’ll ignore the above, try to simplify, but it might get complicated.
The OP wants to capture photos of rain

It comes back to my new mantra, your camera doesn’t ‘take photos’ it records the light reflected from an object. This is fundamental both artistically and technically.

The simple solution (without explaining the why) is to make sure the rain is between the light source and the camera.

Whether that light source is a bright low sun or a speed light is irrelevant (for the image), though what is relevant to the OP’s question is that if he’s buying a speed light he needs to buy one he can trigger off camera, along with a trigger.

On that note @KingJohn whats your budget.
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Why mention it if you're ignoring it? :p

We can only assume here, all of us, unless the OP offers more details - the whole bounce thing was suggestion for flash in general, I don't know why - but indoor family shots sprang to mind - kind of forgot about the rain bit for a minute

I'm going to assume he's not going to set up anything elaborate with out-door flash if he's never used a speed-light to begin with.

Therefore slower shutter speed, forget the flash, is his best bet. Unless you actually do want to further explain for the hell of it and go into sync speeds/rear curtain all that jazz, because it's certainly not straight forward to stick a flash outside and capture 'rain strands'
 
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Regardless of where the light source is a dark background will generally help to show the rain streaks.
 
Cagey75 said:
We can only assume here, all of us, unless the OP offers more details
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He’s mentioned his requirement more than once. He bought the camera because he’d been unable to photograph rain with his phone.
Ed Sutton said:
Regardless of where the light source is a dark background will generally help to show the rain streaks.
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But backlighting makes a huge difference
 
Phil V said:
He’s mentioned his requirement more than once. He bought the camera because he’d been unable to photograph rain with his phone.

But backlighting makes a huge difference
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Not in this thread, he just mentions it the once. I just brain farted when trying to add suggestion, thought new to flash, maybe on a tight budget like meself . .
 
Snapsh0t said:
Telling us what camera you have would be helpful.

I'm not sure it would help. Rain drops aren't travelling that fast and the short flash duration of an external flash is more likely to give frozen drops rather than strands.
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Nikon D5600, kit lens 18 to 55mm and now new lens 18 to 300mm
 
Thanks, firstly i dont have a budget really, if i think something is worth the money i will buy it at any cost.

Im learning fast, i have a good mind for the technical aspects and love gadgets

My thoughts are the internal flash wouldnt be the best, also in contact a lot with Nikon UK who also advices.

I now have a better lens than the one that came with the camera;

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-300mm F/3.5-6.3G ED VR Wide Angle & Telephoto Lens

So been out and about taking lots of photos in auto mode, do have some settings from Nikon ready for the rain, but so far we having a heat wave so cant test on rain.

So im thinking i should have a fully compatable external flash that would be triggered by the camera but could be pre set in the flash settings.

Apart from the rain, im thinking of this as a learning curve and if i can achive this i would be learning manual settings to get more detail.

Im might be wrong maybe it will be easy to take a photo of the rain with my equipment, no rain to try
 
KingJohn said:
Apart from the rain, im thinking of this as a learning curve and if i can achive this i would be learning manual settings to get more detail.

Im might be wrong maybe it will be easy to take a photo of the rain with my equipment, no rain to try
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Read the article linked by @soeren
Whilst your camera ‘can’ trigger an off camera flash, your best bet is a radio transmitter and flash with built in receiver. There’s tons of questions in the lighting section, but Godox is the go-to brand nowadays.
 
Honestly, sounds to me like you're very new to all of this and jumping into off camera lighting might be a bit much.

For the rain, backlighting is the right answer. But what you probably want is something like a streetlight in the evening, not flash.
 
sk66 said:
Honestly, sounds to me like you're very new to all of this and jumping into off camera lighting might be a bit much.

For the rain, backlighting is the right answer. But what you probably want is something like a streetlight in the evening, not flash.
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Tend to agree. And once the light is right, there's then the question of shutter speed and/or flash duration to freeze/blur the rain as required.

The OP might be lucky and could well get an interesting image, but without some understanding of the quite complex goings-on and how best to control them, it'll be hit and miss.

KJ, given that you're keen to try things and learn, I'm all for that so just give it a whirl and see what you get. I'd love to see the result and maybe help take things forward (y)
 
Ever heard of a hose?
 
You need a flash when you can't adjust your ISO high enough to get the desired results or if you just like the effect from a lighting standpoint that a flash provides.
 
Thanks once more, i need a better flash pethaps, and since i love gadgets also, im thinking i should get one because one day im going to need it.

Meanwhile it has rained and i was ready to take some photos, i can now adjust speed and other things outside of auto mode, getting a range of too light to too dark, so need to slowly adjust one thing and try other settings.

Camera lets me adjust shutter speed while keeping other things automatic. Or ajust f range and have remaining things in auto. Finally can move away from auto in anything and have full control.

Anyway, rain was very light, could hardly see it with my eyes, so no chance of capturing it.

Looking at getting a tripod to help on some of the settings

Also xyl birthday soon, got her interested in taking photos, so im buying her the new Nikon P1000 telephoto camera i promised to let her use it more than me:cool:

Oh street light, the council fitted all new led lights, not very good type of light, they are wifi control. Im a class a radio ham and have years of experience with wifi control systems, so have found the frequency they work in, recorded the code they use to turn up the light or turn it down, so now have full control of the street lights, and in particular the one at the back of my house that could be great for trying out the capture of rain with adjusting the lights output :cool:
 
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That really is a nice flash unit, i have not learned anything about camera control, so if thats fitted on my camera would the holder trigger it, or are these things controlled by bluetooth or wifi. The wifi control on this camera is naff, takes ages to get it to connect for remote control use using a phone on wifi. Once connected its ok
 
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I suspect it is illegal to tamper with street lights.

What gives you the right to do something so reckless that affects other people?
 
KingJohn said:
Anyway, rain was very light, could hardly see it with my eyes, so no chance of capturing it.
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Read the link in @soeren’s post, and my posts re light and rain.
It’s made more ‘visible’ by light.
Just like everything else really. If you sit in a completely dark room we can’t see anything, so with the lights on, just like a camera we can’t ‘see’ objects at all, what we ‘see’ is light reflected off them.
 
kendo1 said:
I suspect it is illegal to tamper with street lights.

What gives you the right to do something so reckless that affects other people?
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Private road, only my road and my house effected, however you take things to serious, yes i can control it, originally set at 75% not 50% as it was suppose to be, i worked for them for 10 years, they know who connects to it

Ignore selected
 
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Phil V said:
Read the link in @soeren’s post, and my posts re light and rain.
It’s made more ‘visible’ by light.
Just like everything else really. If you sit in a completely dark room we can’t see anything, so with the lights on, just like a camera we can’t ‘see’ objects at all, what we ‘see’ is light reflected off them.
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Sorry mostly use a phone, at this moment a tab 4, firefox android isnt working very well, woukd need to try link on laptop, but if its one im thinking of it has no photos of rain strands, just photo's of wet things and storms?

So more powerfull flash, or background light?
 
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