What no jeremy cobyn thread?

rjbell

rjbell

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Doesn't seem to be much appetite for politics after the general election, still this is pretty big new. I'm surprised there is no thread.
 
There's plenty of appetite, judging by the Budget thread. The problem is that there a few contributors who post controversial comments just to wind people up, and then people who react to that with personal insults, and the whole thing quickly degenerates into farce.

On topic, I think it's strange how Labour grassroots appear to have decided they lost the election by not being left-wing enough. Corbyn will lose the next General Election without a doubt.

What is more worrying is that this signals the end of centrist politics in the UK, and a move towards polarization. The Conservatives have been inching towards the right, a movement that will now accelerate without a credible opposition from the centre left. Labour are lurching off towards the left, and the LibDems are wiped out.
 
Well i can only go by why i didn't vote for them, and that was because they were not left enough. However i think its encouraging they've come to that assumption despite a huge proportion of the press trying to convince them otherwise.
 
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Llamaman said:
What is more worrying is that this signals the end of centrist politics in the UK, and a move towards polarization. The Conservatives have been inching towards the right, a movement that will now accelerate without a credible opposition from the centre left. Labour are lurching off towards the left, and the LibDems are wiped out.
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I think you're right. Corbyn would struggle to win a general election. However I do believe that as a credible leader of the opposition he's the best of all the candidates. And I don't think any of them could win an election either. So part of the reason he's doing so well is the the others are pretty rubbish (IMHO). I do think this country needs more polarisation in its politics - rather then everybody looking the same as has happened over the last few years
 
I think politics needs more spread - that means both polarization and a centre option. Lurching off in two directions leaves a lot of voters with no-one to vote for. Polarization by itself will lead to the type of politics you see in America - divisive, unproductive and self-damaging.

The rehabilitation of the Lib Dems might come purely as a consequence of there being no other centrist party to vote for. I don't rate Farron especially - he's got a lot of work to do,
 
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rjbell said:
Well i can only go by why i didn't vote for them, and that was because they were not left enough. However i think its encouraging they've come to that assumption despite a huge proportion of the press trying to convince them otherwise.
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Out of interest, (and if you don't mind me asking) who did you vote for then? I assume the Green Party, if you live in England?

Edit: Eeeeek, faux pas alert! I see you live in Wales. Plaid Cymru then?
 
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I think you're correct it leaves some room for lib dems rehabilitation. However i'm not convinced even under Jeremy there will be a big lurch to the left rather nudging in my preferred direction. Over recent years they've been inching the same direction as the tories.
 
I'm not into politics as such but you do realise he is the younger brother of Piers Corbyn? The renown "professional" meteorologist who feeds the general media with those over the top weather news. You know those "WORST WINTER FOR 1,000 YEARS ON WAY", or "SUN TO GO SUPERNOVA RESULTING IN 120 F HEAT FOR SIX MONTHS" headlines in the Express and Daily Mail? That's all by him and is giving me a headache speaking as an amateur forecaster . . . and with that to mind, I am out.
 
Ian D J said:
I'm not into politics as such but you do realise he is the younger brother of Piers Corbyn? The renown "professional" meteorologist who feeds the general media with those over the top weather news. You know those "WORST WINTER FOR 1,000 YEARS ON WAY", or "SUN TO GO SUPERNOVA RESULTING IN 120 F HEAT FOR SIX MONTHS" headlines in the Express and Daily Mail? That's all by him and is giving me a headache speaking as an amateur forecaster . . . and with that to mind, I am out.
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we can't pick our families ;) .....
 
Ian D J said:
I'm not into politics as such but you do realise he is the younger brother of Piers Corbyn? The renown "professional" meteorologist who feeds the general media with those over the top weather news. You know those "WORST WINTER FOR 1,000 YEARS ON WAY", or "SUN TO GO SUPERNOVA RESULTING IN 120 F HEAT FOR SIX MONTHS" headlines in the Express and Daily Mail? That's all by him and is giving me a headache speaking as an amateur forecaster . . . and with that to mind, I am out.
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My brothers a Hugo Boss deigned SS suit away from being a Nazi!
 
At least Jeremy Corbyn's politics come from the heart. He doesn't appear to change his views to suit his audience unlike virtually everyone else in politics. However I agree that if he wins, politics is likely to become increasingly polarized with parties leaving the centre ground and moving left or right. This is not a good thing.
 
Michael Foot (Worzel Gummigde) Mk 2.
MF led the labour party to it's worst defeat in 100 years. Corbyn's policies are very similar. Labour party are in a flat spin and seriously short of talent.
 
I'm voting for him too. I look forward to left vs right politics for once. All this centre this and centre that does not appeal to me at all.
 
I've voted Labour all my life apart from the last two elections. Last time I voted Conservative and the time before that I voted for an independent socialist and next time I wont be voting for a party lead by Cobyn.

I just outside Middlesbrough and a big issue here a while back was the fate of the local steel works and at the time the perception was that Labour just didn't give a stuff and indeed I remember one of their candidates or maybe just a campaigner complaining that when she knocked on doors "all" people wanted to talk about was the steel works. Shameful IMVHO. So the great and the good campaigned to get Labour out of the local seats but people have short memories, I'd have punished them for a generation and I don't know when I can forgive them for their apathy, indifference and distance from issues affecting people who'd supported them for generations.

Despite voting for the Cons last time I'd regard myself as a socialist but socialists need to live in the real world and the NHS and child and invalidity benefits and all the rest have to be paid for and funding our lifestyles and our welfare state by borrowing off the Germans forever just doesn't seem like a plan that's going to work. Neither will a mansion tax or going after Big Business, The Banks or The Rich which seemed the targets of the Labour party during the last campaign. God knows what plan Cobyn will come up with but I suspect he's more of a slogan and class war rhetoric man than a man with a real world plan.

rjbell said:
I voted greens.
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My God I hope you're joking?

How anyone who'd read their manifesto and listened to them can vote for them I just don't know. Did you read their manifesto?
 
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Llamaman said:
Are you Labour party members, or just assuming he'll still be in charge come the next general election? :exit:
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He'll still be in charge come the net election, assuming her wins of course and thats not a certainty.

If he's a strong personality and can relate to the public and them to him, then I think he may do better in a GE than people might think. There is room for a party with a strong social justice element, and I believe the public could vote for them, but if he's just a nice guy, like Michael Foot, then it will all end in ignominy
 
woof woof said:
I've voted Labour all my life apart from the last two elections. Last time I voted Conservative and the time before that I voted for an independent socialist and next time I wont be voting for a party lead by Cobyn.

I just outside Middlesbrough and a big issue here a while back was the fate of the local steel works and at the time the perception was that Labour just didn't give a stuff and indeed I remember one of their candidates or maybe just a campaigner complaining that when she knocked on doors "all" people wanted to talk about was the steel works. Shameful IMVHO. So the great and the good campaigned to get Labour out of the local seats but people have short memories, I'd have punished them for a generation and I don't know when I can forgive them for their apathy, indifference and distance from issues affecting people who'd supported them for generations.

Despite voting for the Cons last time I'd regard myself as a socialist but socialists need to live in the real world and the NHS and child and invalidity benefits and all the rest have to be paid for and funding our lifestyles and our welfare state by borrowing off the Germans forever just doesn't seem like a plan that's going to work. Neither will a mansion tax or going after Big Business, The Banks or The Rich which seemed the targets of the Labour party during the last campaign. God knows what plan Cobyn will come up with but I suspect he's more of a slogan and class war rhetoric man than a man with a real world plan.



My God I hope you're joking?

How anyone who'd read their manifesto and listened to them can vote for them I just don't know. Did you read their manifesto?
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How could you vote the tories after reading theirs?

Then say you're a socialist?

Why can't we go after big business that's exactly what we should be doing?
 
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To be clear, I don't think the issue is Corbyn himself. He comes across as a nice, genuine guy, with genuinely held convictions.

The problem is, he seems to be completely at odds with the other Labour MPs - it seems impossible that he'll be able to command the confidence of his shadow cabinet if they all think he's wrong on every issue and secretly want a coup. I think the Conservative will be looking to capitalize on this and create divisions during the course of this parliament.
 
jakeblu said:
He'll still be in charge come the net election, assuming her wins of course and thats not a certainty.

If he's a strong personality and can relate to the public and them to him, then I think he may do better in a GE than people might think. There is room for a party with a strong social justice element, and I believe the public could vote for them, but if he's just a nice guy, like Michael Foot, then it will all end in ignominy
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I think that people are getting a bit more savvy. Years ago the masses voted Labour or Conservative because they always had done and their parents before them or if they voted Liberal so they could act smug at their next dinner party. These days I think that people realise that we can't do all of the nice socialist things and keep riding the gravy train forever if we're (as in...the UK) skint because if we do we're selling our childrens future and they'll dig us up from our graves to give us a damn good kicking.
 
woof woof said:
I think that people are getting a bit more savvy.
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I see no evidence of that. The Conservative campaign seemed to consist of spurious comparisons between National Debt and a personal credit card, whilst wandering around in hi-vis jackets with rolled up sleeves. Yet they won a convincing mandate.


woof woof said:
voted Liberal so they could act smug at their next dinner party
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Oi!!! :bat:
 
Llamaman said:
To be clear, I don't think the issue is Corbyn himself. He comes across as a nice, genuine guy, with genuinely held convictions.

The problem is, he seems to be completely at odds with the other Labour MPs - it seems impossible that he'll be able to command the confidence of his shadow cabinet if they all think he's wrong on every issue and secretly want a coup. I think the Conservative will be looking to capitalize on this and create divisions during the course of this parliament.
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One of the issues that seem to affect most parties.

Vote by members, Get a leader, Stick with it as one
 
rjbell said:
How could you vote the tories after reading theirs?

Then say your a socialist?

Why can't we go after big business that's exactly what we should be doing?
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I'm a socialist and I probably always will be but I live in the real world where there's a cost to pay.

Yes, we can go after Big Business until they all move to Rumania, we can hammer The Rich until they all go to Hong Kong and we can hammer the banks until they follow The Rich to Hong Kong... and then what do we do? Want a new hospital? Want to pay all council workers a living wage? Fine... where are you going to get the money? You can go cap in hand to the IMF... Remember when the IMF came to the UK and told us what to do? Is that any way to run an economy?

The way to be a socialist is not to spend money you haven't got and leave future generations to misery and austerity. The way to be a socialist is to provide for and help those in need and build a caring and sustainable society in which to do so and which can do so. You can't do that by continually instituting class war and you can't do it on a UK credit card either.

You want to tell me that Labour under Cobyn will do that?
 
Llamaman said:
I see no evidence of that. The Conservative campaign seemed to consist of spurious comparisons between National Debt and a personal credit card, whilst wandering around in hi-vis jackets with rolled up sleeves. Yet they won a convincing mandate.
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I do see evidence of it and it should be obvious to you as Labour have lost a large part of their old loyal core support. If people aren't more savvy why has that happened?

Of course you can compare the UK economy to a personal credit card. Why not?
 
woof woof said:
I'm a socialist and I probably always will be but I live in the real world where there's a cost to pay.

Yes, we can go after Big Business until they all move to Rumania, we can hammer The Rich until they all go to Hong Kong and we can hammer the banks until they follow The Rich to Hong Kong... and then what do we do? Want a new hospital? Want to pay all council workers a living wage? Fine... where are you going to get the money? You can go cap in hand to the IMF... Remember when the IMF came to the UK and told us what to do? Is that any way to run an economy?

The way to be a socialist is not to spend money you haven't got and leave future generations to misery and austerity. The way to be a socialist is to provide for and help those in need and build a caring and sustainable society in which to do so and which can do so. You can't do that by continually instituting class war and you can't do it on a UK credit card either.

You want to tell me that Labour under Cobyn will do that?
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He's said nothing about clobbering the rich he just wants to introduce 50p tax rate again.

As for big business you talking like we don't live in a hugely competitive marketplace. If Amazon or starbucks or whoever don't want to pay taxes bye bye, there will be replaced in 5 minutes.
 
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rjbell said:
The tories have borrowed more than labour!
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They're trying to get us out of a mess that is more attributable to Labour than the Cons.

Let me imagine for a moment that you're in debt... Not that you are, but just for arguments sake... so if I came to your home and look at your finances maybe I'd have to put money in. That'd mean I was adding to the problem but it wouldn't make it my problem would it? It'd be your problem that I'm sorting.

rjbell said:
He's said nothing about clobbering the rich he just wants to introduce 50p tax rate again.

As for big business you talking like we don't live in a hugely competitive marketplace. If Amazon or starbucks or whoever don't want to pay taxes bye bye, there will be replaced in 5 minutes.
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During the last election one of Labours core strategies was to say that they'd go after The Rich. Did you miss that?

Every Big Business that moves from the UK will be instantly replaced and there'll be no loss of jobs, no reduction in wealth and no reduction in tax receipts?

Good luck with that :D
 
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woof woof said:
Of course you can compare the UK economy to a personal credit card. Why not?
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Numerous reasons related to macro economics. But the simplest one to explain is - people are not immortal.

I really don't have the inclination to run through the other arguments (such as why governments don't need to pay off debt, only ensure economic growth outstrips debt growth), but there's plenty of articles online. Google "national debt household debt" or similar and there's articles in the Guardian, NYTimes, Forbes, The Economist, the FT...
 
woof woof said:
They're trying to get us out of a mess that is more attributable to Labour than the Cons.

Let me imagine for a moment that you're in debt... Not that you are, but just for arguments sake... so if I came to your home and look at your finances maybe I'd have to put money in. That'd mean I was adding to the problem but it wouldn't make it my problem would it? It'd be your problem that I'm sorting.



During the last election one of Labours core strategies was to say that they'd go after The Rich. Did you miss that?

Every Big Business that moves from the UK will be instantly replaced and there'll be no loss of jobs, no reduction in wealth and no reduction in tax receipts?

Good luck with that :D
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What tax receipts they don't pay any. Once you take tax credits into account neither do their employees. These companies are costing us money not generating.
 
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arclight said:
Michael Foot (Worzel Gummigde) Mk 2.
MF led the labour party to it's worst defeat in 100 years. Corbyn's policies are very similar. Labour party are in a flat spin and seriously short of talent.
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Whilst I agree about the lack of a credible leader in the race. I disagree that it's a 'shortage of talent', modern politics doesn't like talent, it likes people who can perform at a camera.

We have dropped politics to a personality contest where the contestants not only have to convince us face to face, they also have to suck up to media tycoons. It's difficult to find something actually wrong with the last Labour leader other than he didn't do the right things in the public eye. He was a better debater and had more actual political passion than most, but that was never part of the story. Likewise Clegg, who never successfully got the story out about tuition fees - where he was publicly castigated for a Uturn making things tougher for poor kids, where the truth is that it made life easier for most.
 
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