What stop to use on city/town shots...

mikebeecham

mikebeecham

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I've got a 50mm 1.4, and I wanted to get out and take some interesting building shots...not necessarily people but buildings, streets etc.

Recently I took some shots on Av, at f8 on all points, but some photos still didn't have the entire shot in focus. I took Phil's advice on another thread to try and go for single shot only, so was working on composition and trying to remain still as much as I can.

What do you think? Should I be closing the aperture down more? is there something else I should be doing that I'm not doing, or something I am doing that I need to stop?

Ideally, I want a nice, crisp shot that shows all of the photo in focus.

Thanks
 
Look up some DoF tables and study Hyperfocal focussing. You'll see that subject distance and focal length dictate results.

There's a mode on your camera called ADEP designed to do this, which I wouldn't recommend at all.
 
mikebeecham said:
I've got a 50mm 1.4, and I wanted to get out and take some interesting building shots...not necessarily people but buildings, streets etc.

Recently I took some shots on Av, at f8 on all points, but some photos still didn't have the entire shot in focus. I took Phil's advice on another thread to try and go for single shot only, so was working on composition and trying to remain still as much as I can.

What do you think? Should I be closing the aperture down more? is there something else I should be doing that I'm not doing, or something I am doing that I need to stop?

Ideally, I want a nice, crisp shot that shows all of the photo in focus.

Thanks
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Trying to get all the shot in focus has its own problems due to the lens. Some lenses are pants at f16 but they will be superb at 2.8 ..... I am sure there is a chart somewhere about ideal lenses to use at a certain f stop. Don't forget that PP work helps a lot in the finished product.
 
I don't think the 50mm is wide enough for architectural photography.
 
mikebeecham said:
I've got a 50mm 1.4, and I wanted to get out and take some interesting building shots...not necessarily people but buildings, streets etc.

Recently I took some shots on Av, at f8 on all points, but some photos still didn't have the entire shot in focus. I took Phil's advice on another thread to try and go for single shot only, so was working on composition and trying to remain still as much as I can.

What do you think? Should I be closing the aperture down more? is there something else I should be doing that I'm not doing, or something I am doing that I need to stop?

Ideally, I want a nice, crisp shot that shows all of the photo in focus.

Thanks
Click to expand...

also are you shooting upwards ? - you maximise effective use of DoF by having the plane of focus paralel to the subject, so if it isnt, there are more likely to be oof areas
 
With digital it is cheap and easy to experiment.

Do an exercise where you focus on a subject close to you and take a properly exposed photo using the entire range of apertures.

Repeat for something mid distance away.

Repeat again for a a subject further away.

Make sure there are things close to the subject before and after it so you can see what the resulting dof is for each aperture.

Look at the results on screen or better still print them as a contact sheet...one A4 page per distance.

Study the results and you will quickly get an idea as to what aperture gives what depth of field at different distances.
 
tiler65 said:
Trying to get all the shot in focus has its own problems due to the lens. Some lenses are pants at f16 but they will be superb at 2.8 ..... I am sure there is a chart somewhere about ideal lenses to use at a certain f stop. Don't forget that PP work helps a lot in the finished product.
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I'm sorry, I can't agree that PP work helps a lot, if a shot isn't in focus it isn't in focus, you can sharpen the hell out of the OOF bits but it won't look as well as it you took it properly in the first place.

To the OP, it will depend on the scene as to what aperture you need, shooting a bridge across a river on a wide angle you may get away with f4, shooting a statue close in the foreground with details behind you might need f16 or even more.
 
Thanks for the responses! Would using AI Servo help at all in reducing some of the human error, or is that more of a 'cheat' through not having to work on your own skill in taking a shudder-less shot?
 
AI servo won't help. It's for tracking moving subjects.

If your shots are suffering shake, IS will help, but the best advice is to learn good technique, bracing yourself and your camera, and breathing. The biggest mistake is rushing.
 
Phil V said:
AI servo won't help. It's for tracking moving subjects.

If your shots are suffering shake, IS will help, but the best advice is to learn good technique, bracing yourself and your camera, and breathing. The biggest mistake is rushing.
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Phil, again, you come through with some good advice!

I've been working on stance, steadiness, etc..elbows in, etc. There's definite improvement there but still much to learn.

In terms of the street shots, from what I can tell I have a fairly decent lens (been reading other forums...I know, sorry!!) but perhaps more time with the shot before hitting the shuttler will help?
 
mikebeecham said:
I've got a 50mm 1.4, and I wanted to get out and take some interesting building shots...not necessarily people but buildings, streets etc.
Click to expand...

If you look up some DoF tables you'll see that with a 50mm lens on APS-C you'll be looking at extreme apertures or increasing your camera to subject distance to get anything like front to back DoF.

If you simply must go for front to back DoF you'd probably be better off looking at a wider lens... 20, 24, 28mm if looking at a prime... and thinking about perspective and framing a lot more.
 
woof woof said:
If you look up some DoF tables you'll see that with a 50mm lens on APS-C you'll be looking at extreme apertures or increasing your camera to subject distance to get anything like front to back DoF.

If you simply must go for front to back DoF you'd probably be better off looking at a wider lens... 20, 24, 28mm if looking at a prime... and thinking about perspective and framing a lot more.
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Thanks Alan,

Unfortunately the latter may be a while yet, as the £200+ I just spent on the 50mm 1.4 was about as much as I can spend right now...but maybe later this year I might be able to go for something wider. What would you recommend out of those you listed, and where would be the best place to buy?
 
woof woof said:
If you look up some DoF tables you'll see that with a 50mm lens on APS-C you'll be looking at extreme apertures or increasing your camera to subject distance to get anything like front to back DoF.

If you simply must go for front to back DoF you'd probably be better off looking at a wider lens... 20, 24, 28mm if looking at a prime... and thinking about perspective and framing a lot more.
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Why not use your 18-55mm zoom lens and see which of the focal lengths suit what you want to take. If you try taking the shots on it at f8 you may well fine that it will give you the depth of field and all of the photo in focus that you want. :shrug:
 
huffy said:
Why not use your 18-55mm zoom lens and see which of the focal lengths suit what you want to take. If you try taking the shots on it at f8 you may well fine that it will give you the depth of field and all of the photo in focus that you want. :shrug:
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Using the kit lens would seem sensible, at least to decide what focal length is required if going for a prime.

mikebeecham said:
Thanks Alan,

Unfortunately the latter may be a while yet, as the £200+ I just spent on the 50mm 1.4 was about as much as I can spend right now...but maybe later this year I might be able to go for something wider. What would you recommend out of those you listed, and where would be the best place to buy?
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I bought all my lenses from big name UK dealers, apart from a Voigtlander 25mm f0.95 as there was no UK stock. Anyway, I think that using big name suppliers is the safe bet even if it costs a bit more. If you're willing to buy used kit there is always the sale section here and there are big name used kit sellers too, like Ffordes.

As for what prime lens... I honestly don't think it'll matter that much. As you're a Canon user if you want AF you're pretty much limited to Canon and Sigma. Don't think Tamron make primes in this range?

I have a Sigma 20mm f1.8 which seems very good and they do very similar 24 and 28mm f1.8's. In the past I had a Sigma 30mm f1.4 which was very good but is APS-C only - if that bothers you. Personally I prefer lenses to have USM/HSM and full time manual focus if at all possible.

PS. A cheap way into wider angle primes could be to go for a legacy lens and use it via an adapter. Although (non macro) manual focus with a DSLR isn't ideal you can get adapters that give you focus confirmation so it may be an option? You may pick up a Olympus OM fit 24 or 28mm for under £20 and an adapter for £15-20 so you could be up and running with a manual wider than 50mm prime for under £50.

I've used my manual Olympus Zuiko lenses on my 5D via a cheap adapter and the image quality seems to be good.

Just a thought :D

Here's my 5D fitted with a cheap Zuiko via a cheap adapter and beside it is a Sigma 20mm f1.8 :D

_1090858c_zpsac4853ee.jpg
 
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markmullen said:
I'm sorry, I can't agree that PP work helps a lot, if a shot isn't in focus it isn't in focus, you can sharpen the hell out of the OOF bits but it won't look as well as it you took it properly in the first place.
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PP work does not just mean sharpen but you should know that as your images have lots of PP work.
 
woof woof said:
Using the kit lens would seem sensible, at least to decide what focal length is required if going for a prime.



I bought all my lenses from big name UK dealers, apart from a Voigtlander 25mm f0.95 as there was no UK stock. Anyway, I think that using big name suppliers is the safe bet even if it costs a bit more. If you're willing to buy used kit there is always the sale section here and there are big name used kit sellers too, like Ffordes.

As for what prime lens... I honestly don't think it'll matter that much. As you're a Canon user if you want AF you're pretty much limited to Canon and Sigma. Don't think Tamron make primes in this range?

I have a Sigma 20mm f1.8 which seems very good and they do very similar 24 and 28mm f1.8's. In the past I had a Sigma 30mm f1.4 which was very good but is APS-C only - if that bothers you. Personally I prefer lenses to have USM/HSM and full time manual focus if at all possible.

PS. A cheap way into wider angle primes could be to go for a legacy lens and use it via an adapter. Although (non macro) manual focus with a DSLR isn't ideal you can get adapters that give you focus confirmation so it may be an option? You may pick up a Olympus OM fit 24 or 28mm for under £20 and an adapter for £15-20 so you could be up and running with a manual wider than 50mm prime for under £50.

I've used my manual Olympus Zuiko lenses on my 5D via a cheap adapter and the image quality seems to be good.

Just a thought :D
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Thanks for the info mate. I'm about a month away from being able to look into the sale section here...only be posting for about a month I think!

In terms of other lenses, I have the 18-55 and 55-250mm kit lenses, although not really used the kit lenses since getting the 50mm 1.4. Perhaps I need to get them back out of the bag.
 
mikebeecham said:
Thanks for the info mate. I'm about a month away from being able to look into the sale section here...only be posting for about a month I think!

In terms of other lenses, I have the 18-55 and 55-250mm kit lenses, although not really used the kit lenses since getting the 50mm 1.4. Perhaps I need to get them back out of the bag.
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I do like primes and they have the advantage of being able to shoot at wider apertures, as well as being damn sexy things :D but when using smaller apertures I honestly think that you'll have to look very closely to see the difference between a prime and your kit lens, after decent post capture processing to get the best out of your shots.

Yes, the 50mm f1.4 may be a touch sharper than your kit lens and a 20/24/28mm prime will probably display less distortion than your kit lens but after processing I still think that you'll be hard pressed to tell a stopped down prime shot from a stopped down zoom shot unless you pixel peep or print/view very big.
 
tiler65 said:
I never said you could.
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Chap asks for help as he isn't getting the whole frame sharp.

mikebeecham said:
I've got a 50mm 1.4, and I wanted to get out and take some interesting building shots...not necessarily people but buildings, streets etc.

Recently I took some shots on Av, at f8 on all points, but some photos still didn't have the entire shot in focus. I took Phil's advice on another thread to try and go for single shot only, so was working on composition and trying to remain still as much as I can.

What do you think? Should I be closing the aperture down more? is there something else I should be doing that I'm not doing, or something I am doing that I need to stop?

Ideally, I want a nice, crisp shot that shows all of the photo in focus.

Thanks
Click to expand...


You reply
tiler65 said:
Trying to get all the shot in focus has its own problems due to the lens. Some lenses are pants at f16 but they will be superb at 2.8 ..... I am sure there is a chart somewhere about ideal lenses to use at a certain f stop. Don't forget that PP work helps a lot in the finished product.
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Am I missing something?
 
Well, if you're using smaller apertures you can begin to suffer a loss in image quality due to diffraction however in post capture processing you can overcome this to a degree by doing things such as ... boosting the contrast and sharpening. So, yes - it is possible to at least to a degree overcome the image quality difficulties of using smaller apertures in post capture processing.

You can't do much with DoF though :D
 
woof woof said:
Well, if you're using smaller apertures you can begin to suffer a loss in image quality due to diffraction however in post capture processing you can overcome this to a degree by doing things such as ... boosting the contrast and sharpening. So, yes - it is possible to at least to a degree overcome the image quality difficulties of using smaller apertures in post capture processing.
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The OP said he was using f8 so no real danger of diffraction causing the issue.

woof woof said:
You can't do much with DoF though :D
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Exactly why I was puzzled.
 
What iso and shutter speed is the OP using when he's shooting at f/8?

Could it be camera shake affecting sharpness in his photos, as his shutter speed has dropped too low?

I took a quick look through the thread, but didn't see this mentioned. Apologies if this has been previously discussed.
 
skysh4rk said:
What iso and shutter speed is the OP using when he's shooting at f/8?

Could it be camera shake affecting sharpness in his photos, as his shutter speed has dropped too low?

I took a quick look through the thread, but didn't see this mentioned. Apologies if this has been previously discussed.
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No worries...

I've been running on Av, try to always use 100iso outdoors if the light will allow and let the camera work out the shutter speed.
 
mikebeecham said:
No worries...

I've been running on Av, try to always use 100iso outdoors if the light will allow and let the camera work out the shutter speed.
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If you use iso 100 outdoors either in overcast conditions or open shade, your shutter speed would roughly be 1/100 at f/4 according to the sunny 16 rule, if I remember correctly

If you stop down then to f/8, which is a full two stops, you're looking at 1/25 (someone double check my numbers on all of this)), which is too slow for a 50mm lens handheld in almost all cases .

Therefore, it seems to me, that you could be experiencing problems with camera shake, not focus.
 
For thinking about the aperture, you can use a website like this: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html to calculate what the depth of field will be. You can also print off some charts or get a depth of field calculator on a smartphone too. That'll help you visualise the size of the focus plane and you'll know what aperture you'll need to get the whole building sharp.
 
markmullen said:
The OP said he was using f8 so no real danger of diffraction causing the issue.

Exactly why I was puzzled.
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I don't think you're so much puzzled as up for an argument :LOL: but I'll try and explain...

The OP is using a 50mm at f8 and isn't getting front to back DoF. To get front to back DoF the OP is going to have to use smaller apertures or increase the camera to subject distance.

Tiler65 said... "Some lenses are pants at f16 but they will be superb at 2.8 ..... I am sure there is a chart somewhere about ideal lenses to use at a certain f stop. Don't forget that PP work helps a lot in the finished product."

Now, the way I read that is that at apertures like f16 the lens possibly isn't going to be at its best but processing helps with the finished product.

I'd agree with that. Shoot at f16 and you may well see image quality degradation due to diffraction but if you fiddle in CSx or whatever other processing software you use you could potentially mask the effects of diffraction to a degree. A boost to levels, contrast, saturation maybe... and maybe a touch more sharpening than you'd normally use and the image may well look pretty good. You can't increase the DoF post capture, not unless you're very clever :D but you may well be able to shoot at small apertures and improve the image post capture.
 
woof woof said:
I don't think you're so much puzzled as up for an argument :LOL: but I'll try and explain...
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I'm sorry if it appeared that way, I was just concerned that the OP was saying he was having trouble getting the whole frame in focus front to back and it appeared someone was saying he could sort it with PP which is blatently wrong, if it is out of focus it is out of focus.
 
hmmm. Mike can you show us photos to see what your actual problem is. Focusing too close? Camera shake? Bad focusing? I manage to get reasonable DOF with a 50mm on my NEX so no reason why you shouldn't.

Take a look at this, it calculates DOF for any given lens, use 35mm format on this table - it's the nearest you'll get to crop.

http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~oz/nikon/dof/dof_hfd.htm

Personally, I'd like a 50mm f1.4 lens but a good wide - say 24mm or 21mm is going to be cheaper and much more useful.

More stuff: The 50 f1.4 is only 1 stop faster than a f2 I'd turn up the ISO a stop using my f2.
Diffraction occurs at extreme small apertures, most lenses go only to f22, some only f16, these apertures will cause minimal diffraction. F22 on a 24mm may cause more diff than on a 50mm as the physical size of the aperture is smaller...

... but with a 24mm set at f8, focused at 4 metres will give good DOF from 2m to infinity and a 28mm at f8 a similar depth, check the table.

Of course DOF is what is acceptable to the viewer. A good quality A4 print with acceptable sharpness (as another member suggests) is what you should aim for. If you zoom right into the picture on your PC you will see blur.

LIke I said right at the beginning of this reply you show us no photos to illustrate your problem. Hope you got it sorted!
Phil
 
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markmullen said:
I'm sorry if it appeared that way, I was just concerned that the OP was saying he was having trouble getting the whole frame in focus front to back and it appeared someone was saying he could sort it with PP which is blatently wrong, if it is out of focus it is out of focus.
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Again, you read something I didn't write but hey ho I can't stop you reading stuff that isn't there. I never even mentioned PP OOF shots back in focus.
 
As a couple of other people have mentioned, practice will make perfect. I would get the kit lens on, and go out and have a play.

It may be worth taking a couple of shots in fully automatic mode, and looking at what the camera is choosing for the shot. Unfortunately it's not just a case of one settings fits all. If your not getting the required results, move up to f11 etc.

If it helps, I had the same problem when I first got my 35mm prime. I felt like I would notice a massive step up in my pics straight away, however I ended up just using my kit lens until I could afford to upgrade to something a bit better (with a focal length more suited to buildings etc)! A 50mm prime would be great for street photography tho.
 
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