what to charge??

moojii

moojii

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Edit My Images
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hey hey

i got asked to do the photos for a pub/restaurants website.
not sure how many images they will use yet though.

what i need advice on is how much to charge?? and, how to break the charge down ie time...pp...images etc etc.

should i give away the copyright and for what fee??

any advice would be appreciated.

cheers :help: :clap: :love:
 
I had something like that recently, too.

You should charge for: the shoot - this involves the ACTUAL shoot and the travel costs
the images - this involves any editing done
copyright - don't charge too much

As far as copyright goes, you have been contracted by the client to take these photos, so its not as if they are picking a photo out of your library.
Sell them full usage rights, about £5 per photo I would say.
But retain some rights, so you can use them in your portfolio.

I don't know the specific details though.

It depends how long you spend on the photos and how many photos they want.
 
FP seems to have got pretty much what everyone was saying summed up well there. :)

My 2p's worth would be to work out an hourly rate that takes into account all the costs you want to cover. Your time on site, the processing, the disk, whatever you might need to include.

This should include full copyright in my book, with portfolio use for you of course.

Make sure you have a figure in mind that you are happy with and then, under no circumstances, let the client push that down. You may decide it's worth doing for almost nothing as you want the gig but you'd like a fiver. Then that's fine but make sure you get your fiver. :D
 
sorry I don't have any advice on costing but you're doing it the right way around, it's easier to agree a figure up front than do the job then argue about it.
 
Your pricing structure should be based on your costs and profit expectations which should be derived from the following:

Cost of the shoot:

Transport costs - either public transport charges or 40p per mile Petrol / 25p per mile diesel.

Food and drink costs - say £10, depnding on how long your travel and shoot time are.

Equipment costs - this covers usage, depreciation, wear etc, say £10.

Your time - £50 per hour minimum, but bear in mind you will have to provide a time estimate.

Picture costs:

Assuming you divide the time taken to sort all the shots, process the ones you want etc charge, say, 15 minutes work per finished picture @ £50 per hour labour, plus software costs (£1), works out at about £13.50 per shot.

Copyright

I have no idea of the going rate, but the £5 looks reasonable.


When writing up your estimate, do not go to this level of detail as it invites more scrutiny. It's a service and product you're providing and that is what it should show, e.g:

Estimate

Conduct photo shoot at your premises: £230

Supply finished photographs, including copyright: £18.50 per photo

Photographer retains right to use pictures for work portfolio.


The above is 'quick and dirty' just to give you an idea.
 
So at £50/hour doing a 37.5 hour week makes a £90K job. This is why I always find it funny when people on this forum throw numbers around. No photographer is worth that. Especially since you've inlcuded the price of equipment, travel, food etc.
 
ThisPhotoGuy said:
So at £50/hour doing a 37.5 hour week makes a £90K job. This is why I always find it funny when people on this forum throw numbers around. No photographer is worth that. Especially since you've inlcuded the price of equipment, travel, food etc.
Click to expand...

How much do you pay a plumber per hour on top of the call out fee?

How much do you pay per hour for your car to be serviced, excluding parts ?

How many photographers get 37.5 hours per week and work that every week ?

Have you considered employment costs e.g. national insurance, pension ?

etc etc
 
ThisPhotoGuy said:
So at £50/hour doing a 37.5 hour week makes a £90K job. ...... No photographer is worth that. .......
Click to expand...

My price list works off of £120 per hour and I'm sooooooo worth it I could work for L'Oreal. ;);)
 
ThisPhotoGuy said:
So at £50/hour doing a 37.5 hour week makes a £90K job. This is why I always find it funny when people on this forum throw numbers around. No photographer is worth that. Especially since you've inlcuded the price of equipment, travel, food etc.
Click to expand...

take into account any editing you do or sifting thorough the shots, that £50 can come down fast.
 
ThisPhotoGuy said:
So at £50/hour doing a 37.5 hour week makes a £90K job. This is why I always find it funny when people on this forum throw numbers around. No photographer is worth that. Especially since you've inlcuded the price of equipment, travel, food etc.
Click to expand...

My company charge around £120 per hour to non contracted customers for me to fix their fire alarms! £50 per hour is very reasonable for a professional service I'd say.
 
I had a guy come out and take some pictures of my business for our website and brochures( hotel & Resturant) he took about 50 pictures, he did no pp work, he copied them onto a disc and handed it to me, total price £385, now his pictures were good, but looking back i really should have taken the pics myself.. he was out for about 1 hour.. not sure if this is cheap or expensive or the going rate, but being a small business i would not have paid anymore than that.
 
CarlukeDave said:
My company charge around £120 per hour to non contracted customers for me to fix their fire alarms! £50 per hour is very reasonable for a professional service I'd say.
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That's great for your company. But that's not the point I was making. The £50/hour was purely the wage for himself. Now out of that £120/hour that company charge for your time do you take home 42%? If you do then you have an excellent contract with your work!

Defiance said:
How much do you pay a plumber per hour on top of the call out fee?

How much do you pay per hour for your car to be serviced, excluding parts ?

How many photographers get 37.5 hours per week and work that every week ?

Have you considered employment costs e.g. national insurance, pension ?

etc etc
Click to expand...

Never paid £50/hour for a service. But the cost of labour generally includes the business overheads etc and then parts are on top.
Again you are missing the point the £50/hour is purely salary. Every one pays taxes etc. People can choose to have a pension (private) etc. It still doesn't take away from the fact that very few photograpers are worth £50/hour as a take home salary.
 
NEVER give up your copyright!!!!! Sell them a licence to use the ics for a given use for a given time - NEVER EVER GIVE AWAY COPYRIGHT
work out how long the job will take and charge around £300 per day plus travel etc plus he useage fee £5 per pic if yiu want but that is not for the copyright!!
 
With respect, I'm not missing the point at all. You are assuming that a photographer will work 37.5 hours a week, every week of the year. The reality with freelance is that it's probably much less than that and therefore to earn a good living from a skilled profession requires a higher charge out rate to earn a good salary. There is also a huge element of risk to consider because a photographer has to go out and market themselves to get work (this costs), and they may not always get it as they are not permanently employed. Would you want to do this on £15 per hour and then have to find your own NI etc ? You would not survive.

Another comparision is a skilled contract worker at a company, the sort who are employed on 3 months contracts to do specific jobs. It's not uncommon for their rates to equate to £100k per year, but again they don't have the security of permanent employment and have to cover all their own costs, NI etc.

Finally, £50 per hour is not the take home salary, NI has to be deducted for example and I, for one, would want a pension.
 
awp said:
charge around £300 per day plus ravel
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I'm really liking the idea of adding a shoe allowance to my fees :thumbs::D but I have to dissagree with everything else. :(
 
you think it's a good idea to give up copyright?
 
Absolutley I do.
 
why on earth would you want to do that? there is hardly ever a need to
 
Well I'm in the business of making images not administering image usage. Also, there is very little I shoot that would be of any commercial value to anyone but the client that commisioned it.

So, I price jobs so that I get the money I want for the time I'm involved and then I move on to the next one. Free to be creative at all times and never sat at a desk checking magazines, websites or papers for images that are out of license.
 
Here they are repeated

It still doesn't take away from the fact that very few photograpers are worth £50/hour as a take home salary.

And

Defiance, well done for realising that people pay tax.

Think about it for a little while
 
I think, rather than spoil the OP thread with your petty arguements and personal comment, you might want to either stop now, or take this to pm.

To the OP, sorry about this, you have plenty of good advice from most of the posters to work with here :D
 
foodpoison said:
I had something like that recently, too.

You should charge for: the shoot - this involves the ACTUAL shoot and the travel costs
the images - this involves any editing done
copyright - don't charge too much

As far as copyright goes, you have been contracted by the client to take these photos, so its not as if they are picking a photo out of your library.
Sell them full usage rights, about £5 per photo I would say.
But retain some rights, so you can use them in your portfolio.

I don't know the specific details though.

It depends how long you spend on the photos and how many photos they want.
Click to expand...

:agree:
 
.... and the WINNER of the prize for the MOST SENSIBLE posting on this thread is...

awp said:
NEVER give up your copyright!!!!! Sell them a licence to use the ics for a given use for a given time - NEVER EVER GIVE AWAY COPYRIGHT
work out how long the job will take and charge around £300 per day plus travel etc plus he useage fee £5 per pic if yiu want but that is not for the copyright!!
Click to expand...
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Moojii, you will probably never receive a more sensible piece of advice than THIS!

On the question of pricing and annual salary I would just like to say that when my wife was working as a teacher her average hours (including work at home - preparing lesson plans, writing reports, researching, preparing teaching aids and materials, etc) were 65-70 hours per week! Do you suppose she was on MORE or LESS than 90k before tax? :shrug:
 
Why would you want to retain copyright on something that no one would want to buy?

The only thing that, if hired to shoot, I would keep copyright for would be portraits. I don't want the client going off and getting 100 prints done to send off to family and friends. Thats losing business.

If they DID want copyright, I would sell it to them for an extortionate price.
 
barsbyart said:
.... and the WINNER of the prize for the MOST SENSIBLE posting on this thread is...

NEVER give up your copyright!!!!! Sell them a licence to use the ics for a given use for a given time - NEVER EVER GIVE AWAY COPYRIGHT
work out how long the job will take and charge around £300 per day plus travel etc plus he useage fee £5 per pic if yiu want but that is not for the copyright!!
Click to expand...

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Moojii, you will probably never receive a more sensible piece of advice than THIS!
Click to expand...

Sorry, I disagree.

I 'normally' keep the copyright, but there are times you can agree to sell the copyright. Read this thread.

That earned me £500 for a total of five hours work, and the photos would have been of no use to me for any other use anyway
 
Defiance - why the difference between petrol and diesel travel quotes - one will go towards covering costs other than fuel and the other just about covers the fuel?

~~

Foodpoison - copyright. You never know what might happen in the future, say you are shooting a pretty pub and this is taken over by a large chain who then want to use it for a major advertising promotion. You just happen to have taken the photograph (and sold the copyright for a minimal sum) at the optimal time of year, good weather with blue skies and colourful planting outside and they take over in the autumn. Instead of waiting another year for the optimal photographic time they use your image and it appears in magazines, brochures, table mats, post cards etc etc. If you had licensed the original image for specific uses/time period then you would be in a position to re-negotiate the use and possibly earn a decent sum from it.

~~~

Photographic costs are not just those involved in taking the pictures - there are certain overheads such as equipment, insurance, taxes (and if you are self employed then an Accountant), plus possibly rent or purchase of premises. Time spent getting clients, negotiating with them, stationery, postage, phone calls let alone the actual photography and any post processing and getting the prints organised.
 
foodpoison said:
I don't want the client going off and getting 100 prints done to send off to family and friends. Thats losing business.
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Answered your own question there fp!

Imagine I do a job for a company to be used purely in an in-house publication. I charge them a reasonable fee for that usage but give them the copyright. They are then free to use those images ANY WAY THEY LIKE -national ad campaign, billboards, newspapers, magazines, TV, on the cover of the book of their success story, promotion of the film of the book of their success story.... :bonk: Quote: "That losing business."


Turn it around - why would the client need the copyright?

In principle it is NEVER good practice to give up the copyright.

You'd kick yourself if any of your subjects suddenly became mega famous and you'd not kept the copyright wouldnt you? Why is it different for you taking portraits and anyone else taking other stuff?

EEEEK! Don't know how that little icon got there! I'm sure I didn't do it! Absolutely NOT angry!
 
JumboBeef said:
Sorry, I disagree.

I 'normally' keep the copyright, but there are times you can agree to sell the copyright.
Click to expand...


Of course you can always agree to sell copyright - that's your choice but you should make an informed choice! Why might they want it? How might they use it? Have you been paid a fair price?

Ooops! Sorry, Kerioak didn't see your post! Quite right!
 
JumboBeef said:
Confused now. Your post up there agreed with another post which said NEVER sell your copyright :thinking:
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Never say 'Never' (old saying)

NEVER is a LONG time. I DO AGREE in principle that it is NOT a good idea to give up your copyright but the client may make it worth your while! £1M in the bank is better than a bird in the bush!(Mixed metaphor)

You can choose to work for nothing if you wish but I'd say it's probably not a good idea!
 
I don't know. Does anyone else see this keeping hold of copyright so you can go back and recharge your client as seeming a bit grubby?

It does nothing for the reputation of our industry to have clients see us as a group that will quote to take on the job and create the images but then always be on the lookout to turn up and charge again.

Work out a fee for the time and trouble that you are happy with. Provide the client with the images that they have commissioned, then go and take some more photographs for someone else.

Commercial photography is not like shooting stock and should not be considered in the same light.

if a client finds a new use for some images you've made sometime in the future, that should be seen as a good thing, not a loss of revenue.
 
dazzajl said:
I don't know. Does anyone else see this keeping hold of copyright so you can go back and recharge your client as seeming a bit grubby?

It does nothing for the reputation of our industry to have clients see us as a group that will quote to take on the job and create the images but then always be on the lookout to turn up and charge again.

Work out a fee for the time and trouble that you are happy with. Provide the client with the images that they have commissioned, then go and take some more photographs for someone else.

Commercial photography is not like shooting stock and should not be considered in the same light.

if a client finds a new use for some images you've made sometime in the future, that should be seen as a good thing, not a loss of revenue.
Click to expand...


What?

Do authors and book publishers give books away free once the first print edition has sold out?

Do restaurants give you free meals after you've eaten and paid once?

Can you buy one wedding album and get 50 free thereafter?

Do plumbers keep coming back for free after the initial call-out?

If you use Photoshop or similar please check your agreement - you will see that it is a LIcence Agreement, a licence to USE - they didn't give you any copyright to the app.

If a client finds a different use for the images they will pay for that usage. It's sound business sense.
 
>What?
I get your point, I just don't agree with it. The examples you use work just as well the other way you know. :)

>Do authors and book publishers give books away free once the first print edition has sold out?
No but nor do I expect to pay again if I decide that after buying the book to read at bedtime, I then decide to take it on holiday and read it there too.

>Do restaurants give you free meals after you've eaten and paid once?
many will ask if you'd like to take what's left home to eat there. One fee, two usages.

>Can you buy one wedding album and get 50 free thereafter?
People are not getting more product from you though are they. Just continuing to use the one they have already bought

>Do plumbers keep coming back for free after the initial call-out?
Do plumbers come back to charge more if I start using the bath they fitted to sit some pot plants in water?


>If a client finds a different use for the images they will pay for that usage. It's sound business sense.

Is it really though? how do actually know when a client has taken the use of an image outside the license you granted? I really don't want to be spending my time monitoring my clients. Keeping an eye on all the images I've shot would be almost a full time job and I'd have to employ someone to do it for me. It's all added cost and admin and I for one, would rather be making images and smiling. :D

Like I say, I do get the principle of what you're saying but it just feels all wrong to me.
 
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