When taking photos feels wrong :(

[DG Phototraining]

Just back from an adventurous trip to mid France, where we visited a village I'd heard of via the incredible World At War series many years ago

On 10 June, Diekmann's battalion sealed off Oradour-sur-Glane and ordered everyone within to assemble in the village square to have their identity papers examined. This included six non-residents who happened to be bicycling through the town when the SS unit arrived. The women and children were locked in the church, and the village was looted. The men were led to six barns and sheds, where machine guns were already in place.

According to a survivor's account, the SS men then began shooting, aiming for their legs. When victims were unable to move, the SS men covered them with fuel and set the barns on fire. Only six men managed to escape. One of them was later seen walking down a road and was shot dead. In all, 190 Frenchmen died.
The SS men next proceeded to the church and placed an incendiary device beside it. When it was ignited, women and children tried to escape through the doors and windows, only to be met with machine-gun fire. 247 women and 205 children died in the attack.

It was harrowing walking through the remains of the village, left untouched as a memorial to all who died, and a reminder of the insanity & atrocities of war

Seeing pots still hanging over fireplaces, the remains of twisted metal bed-frames and even a cot will remain with me for a long time

Taking photos almost felt wrong and yet appropriate too - here's just 3 to give a taste

Dave

 

[ancient_mariner]

Hitting like seems inappropriate, but your images are sensitive, and in keeping with the history of the village.

 

[shapeshifter]

Bizarre!

 

[Sky]

I've been there several times - the first with friends and subsequent re-visits with family.

It's a must visit to anyone staying in (or passing through) that area.

Your pictures are as AM says - nicely done.

 

[Box Brownie]

Hitting like seems inappropriate, but your images are sensitive, and in keeping with the history of the village.

I agree with Toni.

Dave, your post is appropriate and balanced and I 'see' where you are coming from but unless "we" continue to show and share images such as these but only in proper context, as you have done, such war atrocities become nothing more than curios of history - that must not happen.

No different to honouring our (UK, Commonwealth, USA) war dead ~ "Lest we forget"

 

[Fuji Dave]

I think the images are very powerful and your story is right, as we must never forget what happend during the war and your images putting that across as well as can be.

 

[flook999]

a truly shocking tale, and one I hadn't heard previously. Atrocities such as this, the deliberate acts to make innocents deaths as painful and terrifying as possible, are impossible to comprehend or justify. Excellent and tasteful images

 

[woof woof]

I've thought of visiting there too but I don't think I'd be able to bring myself to take any pictures. Maybe I'd take just one wider shot from a distance away.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

It has to be up to the individual whether to take pictures in that place but I think anything that reminds us of the evil which fascism created must be - in a small way - a good thing. The pictures seem appropriate to me.

 

[StewartR]

Nicely done, Dave.

Wasn't Oradour-sur-Glane the village which was depicted in the very opening scenes of the fist episode of The World At War? I'm sure it was. It was absolutely shocking then, and it still is now.

 

[DG Phototraining]

Nicely done, Dave.

Wasn't Oradour-sur-Glane the village which was depicted in the very opening scenes of the fist episode of The World At War? I'm sure it was. It was absolutely shocking then, and it still is now.

It was on that prog MANY years ago where i first saw it, not sure what episode though

I've watched the whole series more than once, and think it really should be basic ed for all our middle/late teens - should put enough off war to stop it ever happening again

Dave

 

[Sky]

It was the very first episode.

 

[DemiLion]

The pictures are fine but you've forgotten to mention one of the most striking features of the place; ie how the museum has been curated!

 

[DemiLion]

Bizarre!

What an odd comment about what is effectively a war grave.

 

[DG Phototraining]

What an odd comment about what is effectively a war grave.

You'll note I chose to ignore that comment

I'm afraid that we were among the first in when it opened and had to leave without exploring the museum for time issues, mostly as we didn't think the village would be as big as it is; the whole site is defo worth most of a full day

Dave

 

[MartynK]

The village was rebuilt close by, after the war, but de Gaulle gave orders that the original village should be left as it was on the day of the massacre, as a memorial to those who died.

For anyone who wants to read a bit more about this, I recommend Max Hasting's book 'Das Reich'. It goes into a lot of detail about the events that led up to that day, and what actually happened.

Oradour sur Glane, Auschwitz-Birkenau, and other places where mass murder took place have been extensively photographed over the years. I don't see anything wrong with this, providing people behave appropriately at the sites.

 

[Nostromo]

it really should be basic ed for all our middle/late teens - should put enough off war to stop it ever happening again

I have thought this many times. Wars are a gruesome thing and are now mostly fought from long distant, where the real casualties aren't seen. It's rare that you see the horrific photos/film of War.
The World at war series is a great documentary, where you can see how inhuman people can be.
People need to keep taking photos like yours, to keep these places alive and remembered. I've seen many a camera club presentation which have included war graves, cemeteries and even the car in your photo.

 

[DemiLion]

I'm afraid that we were among the first in when it opened and had to leave without exploring the museum for time issues, mostly as we didn't think the village would be as big as it is; the whole site is defo worth most of a full day

Dave

The curation was pretty unique when it was first done. Rather than exhibit by individual the collection was exhibited by object type.
So all the pairs of glasses together, all the boots etc etc.

It may seem bland today but when I visited in the early eighties it was quite shocking. The impact of the number
of objects together really brought home the scale of the massacre.

 

[Dave Williams]

I’m off to that area of France next week so will definitely think about going. Thanks for the timely post.

 

[tijuana taxi]

I visited a museum near Lille last week dedicated to the resistance.
More specifically where the bodies of 68 local members were executed.
Took some photos of the ruined fortified fort, but it didn't seem right to take any of the small square where they were killed.

Today I travelled down to London to sign the book of condolence for our recently departed manager (Justin Edinburgh)
There are a lot of momentoes there from fellow supporters, players and even family members.
I did take some photos, asked first and actively encouraged to do so.
Didn't feel like intruding having been a supporter since the mid sixties.

 

[footman]

There were problems after the war when attempts were made to bring members of Das Reich to justice and a number of the accused found to be natives of the disputed region of Alsace.
France would have considered that these SS members were in fact French and it was a highly embarrassing episode which essentially fizzled out to nothing in the early 1950's.

 

[Stumpy]

Its not the TAKING of a photograph (Providing its done in a respectful way), that matters, but WHAT you do with it after.
If nothing else, its a record at that time.

 

[DemiLion]

There were problems after the war when attempts were made to bring members of Das Reich to justice and a number of the accused found to be natives of the disputed region of Alsace.
France would have considered that these SS members were in fact French and it was a highly embarrassing episode which essentially fizzled out to nothing in the early 1950's.

Probably a lot less embarrassing than the SS Charlemagne Regiments.

And also a lot less divisive than the large numbers of Milice and Special Brigades that were executed for treason after the war.

 

[woof woof]

It was the very first episode.

It's in the first and the last episodes.

 

[footman]

Probably a lot less embarrassing than the SS Charlemagne Regiments.

And also a lot less divisive than the large numbers of Milice and Special Brigades that were executed for treason after the war.

I should perhaps have made it clearer that it was Das Reich, the 2nd SS Panzer Division, who were responsible for the massacre. The French have demonstrated an air of amnesia about the activities of the Milice, SS Charlemagne Regiment and similar organisations (including the regular police) during WWII but they are not alone in this, other occupied countries also provided many willing collaborators.
The difference here being that (mostly) retribution against the Milice was carried out in the heat of liberation by the Resistance and others whilst the French members of Das Reich faced formal legal proceedings post-war.
The Bordeaux Trial of 1953, when just a few of the perpetrators were eventually brought to trial was felt by survivors and many French to be a travesty of justice.

I have visited Oradour twice over the years and on both occasions I took some photographs. We intend to visit Auschwitz later this year or early next and I don't know if I shall be taking photographs or not, this is a very personal decision based one ones emotions ( I have evidence of family members being murdered there ). I certainly wouldn't condemn anyone taking photographs provided they behaved with respect and decorum.

 

[davholla]

I don't see anything wrong about taking these photos, they are tasteful and remind us of an important piece of recent history.
Recently there was news about someone taking a topless selfie at Chernobyl -an example of very bad taste.

 

[StewartR]

It may seem bland today but when I visited in the early eighties it was quite shocking. The impact of the number
of objects together really brought home the scale of the massacre.

Indeed. It's the scale of it which is the most important.

Many years ago I visited the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. If you ever find yourself in Washington DC, I thoroughly recommend it, but be prepared to spend most of a day there. There were a number of powerful exhibits which illustrated the scale of the Holocaust, and to my mind these were the most striking and memorable.

• There was a video screen with a scrolling list of all the pieces of anti-Semitic legislation rolled out in the early to mid 1930s. The screen scrolls on, and on, and on, without repetition, for an awfully long time. It demonstrated the classic salami-slicing tactics that the Nazis employed: nearly all of the laws were really minor administrative things, and it would be (and indeed it was) hard for anyone to complain very much about any individual measure, but the cumulative effect was enormous and monstrous.
• There was pile of shoes recovered from one of the death camps. It was a very, very, big pile of shoes.
• There was a very tall room with the walls absolutely crammed from floor to ceiling with family photographs recovered from the Holocaust. If I recall correctly, the caption stated that every single person in those photographs died in the Holocaust. Again it's the scale which is shocking. You can't look at all the photos - some of them are just way too high off the floor to be able to see properly - but the message is clear: even if you wanted to look at them all you couldn't, because there are too many.
• And the one which struck me most powerfully was the elevated bridge linking two of the buildings. The glass walls are etched with the names of Jewish communities which were wiped out during the Holocaust. I'd seen the Vietnam Memorial the day before, which lists all the names of US soldiers killed in Vietnam, and it was absolutely overwhelming to see something similar, but with every name representing an entire village rather than just one person. Absolutely unforgettable.

 

[DK602]

I find the photographs excellent and tasteful at the same time - you may have felt 'wrong' taking them but you should certainly not be embarrassed by what you have captured.

 

[cambsno]

Wow, what an amazing story, as a bit of a WW2 buff I had not heard of this sad story. Certainly not unique but it really does make you think and wonder who and why that persona gave such an order. Taking pics like this shares the message and makes sure these events do not get forgotten.

 

[StewartR]

... as a bit of a WW2 buff I had not heard of this sad story.

A bit of a WW2 buff and you haven't seen The World At War? Shame on you. Still, that's your weekend sorted. It's only 26 1-hour episodes.

 

[DigiFlow]

Back in late 80's a photographer friend of mine was really into photojournalism, one of his projects was a child who suffered from terminal leukemia. He was doing a photo essay of the child's terminal journey over the course of a year for charity. We had a long chat a few days before the child's eventual passing and I truly felt his anguish over this project. On the one hand he felt wrong about taking the pics but he also knew that he had to tell the story for a greater cause - for him the hardest part was the dilemma at the end ... it was something that he had not contemplated when he took on the project. It must take a special type of person to be able to attach and detach from such a painful subject. So its ok to feel wrong, but you also have an important story to tell and you have done so with powerful images.