When will we see a sub-£1,000 full frame camera?...

[specialman]

With technology moving swiftly ahead do you think we'll get to the point within the next 12 months where we get something like a 50D, D90 (or similar) fitted with a full-frame sensor?

It may sound a bit mad and probably won't be cost-effective yet, but I just wonder how fast pro-spec technology filters down to 'low-end' gear....

 

[kingbling11]

I certainly don't think so in the next year but maybe in the future at some point. And sub 1000 would probably mean 999

 

[puddleduck]

All Nikon DSLRs will be full frame.

DX sensor will move to point and shoots - ie Coolpix.

But it'll be 18 months before we see a D90 class body with a full frame sensor I reckon.

 

[Tyke Tiler]

Probably not as full frame capability seems to only be apparent with the upper ranges currently. Who knows though

However a full frame 5DmkI goes for around £850 and the D700's price will eventually drop over time too, so a sub 1k full frame is a reality in one respect.

 

[puddleduck]

Or buy a Nikon EM for a tenner on Ebay rather than wait

 

[pearce_jj]

All Nikon DSLRs will be full frame.

DX sensor will move to point and shoots - ie Coolpix.

I don't personally think that's likely, since the whole thing would then be a lot bigger. The main advantage of a tiny sensor is the tiny optics needed to make it work.

 

[puddleduck]

I don't personally think that's likely, since the whole thing would then be a lot bigger. The main advantage of a tiny sensor is the tiny optics needed to make it work.

Here is a full frame lens not much bigger than a lens cap.

​

If Nikon wanted to do an Olympus Pen type Coolpix, it'll be using a DX sensor. And it'll be using small lenses like the above.

 

[Raymond Lin]

All Nikon DSLRs will be full frame.

DX sensor will move to point and shoots - ie Coolpix.

But it'll be 18 months before we see a D90 class body with a full frame sensor I reckon.

3 years ago, I had quite a fierce debate with someone about the emergence of full frame, the basics were that

Me - My argument is that SLR started with 35mm, and crop is a phase and eventually all DSLR will return to FF.

The other person - He said that Nikon will NEVER produce a Full Frame DSLR as they have invested too much into their DX lenses to let them slide.

I also said that at the time (20D just came out), that the 30D will be Full Frame (wrong), and that I won't get a full frame camera until it hit around £1k (wrong again, I got a 5Dii now).

Thing is, I think the market has settled to a point where APS-C sensor is here to stay.

Full Frame - will always have a price premium, £2k+
APS-C - for the lower end of the market.

Reason is money, you can't get around it, Full Frame sensor costs more to produce, even if the yield success rate has gone up and the production costs has gone down, so would the cost of producing a APS-C sensor would also have come down. People are still buying APS-C sensors by the bucket loads, along with the EF-S and DX lenses.

No doubt a £1k Full Frame camera will sweep the market by storm, thing is, there already is one, the 5D. People tend to forget that, just because it's old, towards the end of it's cycle, it was retailing for £1,000. As for a new model coming out at £1,000, sure, eventually there WILL be one, but i doubt it'll be for a while. When it will be, you bet that it's AF + other features won't be as good as bigger brothers.

 

[puddleduck]

I've always maintained that DX was a big conjob and was a triumph of marketing sound bites "more reach!", "uses the sweet spot of your lens" and was just a wishy washy compromise until the technology caught up to go back to what we had.

I still reckon DX will die in DSLRs, and will move to lower end mainly.

 

[Peter]

All I know is that any lens I buy now will have to be full frame compatible

Pete

D200 owner and saving up for a D5X

 

[mastertrinity]

aps-c will never die, its a great format for those needing the crop factor such as wildlife togs and motorsport.

full frame i believe will be in loads of cameras because its got a market, and i think its a camera evolution.

 

[chilliz]

I hope we don`t as I`m about to splash out over 3k on a 5D MKII and kit. :|

 

[bindex]

I really don't see the fascination with full frame. It's always been the case that a larger format will generally give better image quality. MF blows 35mm away, but doesn't hold a candle to 5x4 etc etc.

It's not a magic bullet and I'll guarantee I could take awful shots with FF just as easily as on a crop

cheers

 

[fracster]

All Nikon DSLRs will be full frame.

DX sensor will move to point and shoots - ie Coolpix.

But it'll be 18 months before we see a D90 class body with a full frame sensor I reckon.

I understand your logic Andy, but perhaps some of us don`t want FF,do you think Nikon may consider that?

 

[Raymond Lin]

I really don't see the fascination with full frame. It's always been the case that a larger format will generally give better image quality. MF blows 35mm away, but doesn't hold a candle to 5x4 etc etc.

It's not a magic bullet and I'll guarantee I could take awful shots with FF just as easily as on a crop

cheers

There are lenses and effect you just can't get on a crop though.

Take the 16-35 2.8L, you cannot get that on crop. There is no 10-22 2.8, nor there is a equivalent 14mm 2.8 prime, or a 35mm 1.4 prime, or a 50mm 1.2. Yes you can use all these on a crop camera but it's not the same field of vision, plus the DOF also changes.

 

[bindex]

There are lenses and effect you just can't get on a crop though.

Take the 16-35 2.8L, you cannot get that on crop. There is no 10-22 2.8, nor there is a equivalent 14mm 2.8 prime, or a 35mm 1.4 prime, or a 50mm 1.2. Yes you can use all these on a crop camera but it's not the same field of vision, plus the DOF also changes.

Oh I'll accept that totally Raymond. There are certainly differences, sometimes quite pronounced. I suppose the point I was trying to get across (probably badly) is that FF is not a panacea, it won't magically make you a better photographer!

 

[Raymond Lin]

Oh I'll accept that totally Raymond. There are certainly differences, sometimes quite pronounced. I suppose the point I was trying to get across (probably badly) is that FF is not a panacea, it won't magically make you a better photographer!

Oh, totally too. the camera is just a tool. I am saying, personally speaking, for my work, Full Frame has a big advantage over Crop. It will be different for different people and I am not trying to make everyone get Full Frame. I have already said that APS-C are here to stay, and I have no problem with that.

 

[heidfirst]

Full Frame - will always have a price premium, £2k+

Sony A900 has already been down to £1500 (admittedly with stock purchased pre the big increases from every company earlier this year) - even now you can buy an A850 for £1720 & it's barely been on the market for 2 weeks - any bets on £1400 by Christmas?

 

[chris321]

I suppose they'll make one when people will buy it without damaging sales of the higher spec-ed models (if that situation ever occurs). For example, if you want to buy a full-frame camera now, what's the minimum you can spend? If someone really wants/needs one, that's the figure they HAVE to spend. Bringing out a cheaper full-frame would mean less people buying the more expensive ones, and lost profits.

On the other hand, they could increase sales enough to set off this loss in profits with greater profits from selling a higher quantity of cheaper full frame bodies.... I'm sure there's a team of business folk in the major manufacturer's offices working out if it's viable or not.

So in short, I suppose we'll see a sub £1000 full frame body when it's in the best interests of the manufacturers!

Chris

 

[Raymond Lin]

Sony A900 has already been down to £1500 (admittedly with stock purchased pre the big increases from every company earlier this year) - even now you can buy an A850 for £1720 & it's barely been on the market for 2 weeks - any bets on £1400 by Christmas?

LOL, well the D700 was £1500 at one point and the 5Dii was £1600 10 months ago.

 

[heidfirst]

well it all contradicts your assertion then that FF will be £2K+, doesn't it ?
Seriously, barring any other massive price hikes like we saw at the start of this year I won't be surprised to see A850s ~£1400 by Christmas.

 

[springtide]

Sony A900 has already been down to £1500 (admittedly with stock purchased pre the big increases from every company earlier this year) - even now you can buy an A850 for £1720 & it's barely been on the market for 2 weeks - any bets on £1400 by Christmas?

I really didn't think the a850 would be so cheap in USD.

UK price is a bit odd, but the a850 release price of $2000USD + 10% TAX in the USA works out at around £1350 in the UK. I think a UK price of £1400-1500 by Xmas is probably about right (you would hope)

The a850 looked a bit of a disapointment (as it's just a cut down version of the a900), but if they can get th price down that might change things.

I wouldn't have thought it, but I would say a FF DSLR for close to £1000 is probably only a year away.

 

[heidfirst]

The a850 looked a bit of a disapointment (as it's just a cut down version of the a900), but if they can get th price down that might change things.

you lose 2 fps (which for the studio & landscape photographers that it's optimised for is unlikely to be an issue) & 2% of the viewfinder view (which according to people that have used both is imperceptible) but it's allowed Sony to chop £400 off the rrp - that's nearly 17%.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Sony has some very attractive offers at the moment. I hope people would start panic buying a850 instead of Canon 5Dii / crop then we would soon see some competition. Sadly I have invested too heavily in canon lenses and flashes.

I would seriously consider £1000 new FF body, but wouldn't even think about spending £600 on a crop. I want my large viewfinder and I want to use 24-70mm and 70-200mm the way were designed (100mm macro is good on crop though)

 

[HoppyUK]

I think manufacturers will always strive to keep full frame premium priced. It's the only thing they have got to justify the highest prices, and that is what they want us to pay. They are in business to make most money the best way they can. They need the full frame 'excuse' and will resist a sub-£1k FF camera for as long as possible.

Technology does not usually filter down, it more commonly filters up from mass market products these days. Crop format is where we will see most innovation first, and the desirability gap to full frame will narrow.

I cannot see how or why Nikon would want to make all their DSLRs full frame, or anyone else for that matter. It's more likely that the Micro 4/3rds format will move up into stronger contention, rather than full frame move down. Sensor technology makes full frame less and less necessary.

All IMHO

 

[MisterE]

Prices are set according to what the marketing people think they can squeeze out of you. Hence the significant differences between UK prices and the US, and even some parts of Europe for some things - RipOff Britain it's called. So if enough of us keep buying the full frame cameras at £2000+ then that's the price they'll stay at.

Look back 20 or 30 years at 35mm film cameras. Basic beginner's ones in the £100 region, high-end amateur stuff for £300, and the serious pro machines, let's say £1000. All labour-intensive production, and much less automation. And I would hazard a guess, a lot less sales. Nevertheless, these are the prices that were around then.

Jump forward to today, and the marketing men have pulled their figures out of the air and decided what they can squeeze us for. Nothing to do with production costs. This is what the British are happy paying.

Here's one example. The old Hitachi 4gb Microdrive CF card. When it first came out, it was priced in the hundreds - at least £500, probably a lot more. Then somebody discovered that the Creative Nomad MuVo MP3 player had a Hitachi 4gb microdrive in it, and could be bought for around £175. Take them apart and you had yourself one astoundingly cheap (at the time) CF card. I bought myself two in Tokyo for even less - £140 each. So if the drives could be bought in Japan, built in to an MP3 player for £140 and turn a profit, how much do you think the western world was being ripped off for £500+?

Another example. These digital picture frames. A 15 to 20 in one will set you back in excess of £200 - and a lot more for big ones. Yet you can buy 20in LCD for half this price, or less. All that extra just for a card reader and a small circuit board for the timing etc? They have decided a price band it has nothing to do with production costs.

And don't mention the price discrepancy between here and the US for Adobe CS4

Don't you get so angry when a camera mag does a review on a camera and declares it "good value" when in the US they are getting it for 2/3 of what we pay?

 

[StewartR]

All Nikon DSLRs will be full frame.

No way, Andy. The first manufacturer who stops producing crop-sensor DSLRs will be conceding the "beginner" market to the competition. And today's beginners are tomorrows enthusiasts and pros.

 

[springtide]

you lose 2 fps (which for the studio & landscape photographers that it's optimised for is unlikely to be an issue) & 2% of the viewfinder view (which according to people that have used both is imperceptible) but it's allowed Sony to chop £400 off the rrp - that's nearly 17%.

In the USA, it's 33% of the RRP price (a900: $3k to a850: $2k)

Like you say:
- The viewfinder is still supposed to be great even being 98% (no different to say a D700).
- 3fps is not actually that far behind the 5D2 (3.8fps?)

I agree that there is nothing wrong with the camera, but a lot of people I think were hoping for some new features, specifically LV. Or even produce a new firmware that would end up in the a900 as v2 (or something similar)

But a release price of $2000 USD (and the new 28-75/2.8) is looking very promising for a sub £1k in the UK in the near future.

 

[pearce_jj]

No way, Andy. The first manufacturer who stops producing crop-sensor DSLRs will be conceding the "beginner" market to the competition. And today's beginners are tomorrows enthusiasts and pros.

I agree, also on the earlier subject of 1.6 crop sensors in P&S's (and that super-slim lens!) - I just can't see it. A key selling point for P&S now MP battle is done is the zoom lens. I just don't think it would be economically possible to make a a 10x IS lens for a 1.6 crop sensor without it being physically quite big?

 

[desantnik]

If you want a hint about when FX is going to take over just wait and see when the DX lenses stop getting upgraded and released, that is when you can tell the end of DX is coming...

But its not yet, not by a long way I suggest.... but it might be at the top end. I guess we have to wait and see what the Canon 1D MkIV shapes up as. It could be APS-H (1.3x crop like the other 1D's) again but if its not and its FF then that changes everything.... and this will probably be announced in a couple of weeks...

 

[postcardcv]

I really don't see the fascination with full frame. It's always been the case that a larger format will generally give better image quality. MF blows 35mm away, but doesn't hold a candle to 5x4 etc etc.

It's not a magic bullet and I'll guarantee I could take awful shots with FF just as easily as on a crop

cheers

I know what you mean, I have a crop and a full frame body and can take total rubbish with either... but the files out of the full frame camera are really 'clean', making a junk shot look better than it would on a crop camera (if that makes sense). I'm hoping that in time we see a sub £1000 full frame camera as I'd like to pick up another one and cannot justify a 5D mkII (no doubt a mkI will tempt me soon).

 

[-Rob-]

A Canon 5D Mk I is a full frame sensor right?

There has just been one posted in the For Sale section fully boxed with a grip for just £650. Even as a Nikonian I will admit that is a bargain. Chances are it will have been sold by now because it's been on sale for about 20 mins by now.

 

[postcardcv]

A Canon 5D Mk I is a full frame sensor right?

There has just been one posted in the For Sale section fully boxed with a grip for just £650. Even as a Nikonian I will admit that is a bargain. Chances are it will have been sold by now because it's been on sale for about 20 mins by now.

yeah, it's gone already... wish I'd seen that a bit quicker.

 

[aligibbs]

Me too- but there is your sub £1000 full frame right there.

 

[HoppyUK]

If you want a hint about when FX is going to take over just wait and see when the DX lenses stop getting upgraded and released, that is when you can tell the end of DX is coming...

But its not yet, not by a long way I suggest.... but it might be at the top end. I guess we have to wait and see what the Canon 1D MkIV shapes up as. It could be APS-H (1.3x crop like the other 1D's) again but if its not and its FF then that changes everything.... and this will probably be announced in a couple of weeks...

If what is happening currently in the market is anything to go by, there is far more activity around crop format and Micro 4/3rds than full frame.

The Canon 7D is quite significant I think - it's the first time Canon has embraced APS-C with a thoroughly professional spec camera (like the Nikon D300 before it). And two new EF-S lenses launched at the same time, one of them decidedly upmarket. Panasonic GF1 and Olympus F-P1 are driving a new camera form and function in a clearly upper-end direction.

My hunch is that the Canon 1DMk4 (or whatever it's called) will retain 1.3x crop format. It's a bit out of kilter but seems to have found a niche as a sports/wildlife/action/long lens camera and full frame would kill the reach. Plus the smaller shutter/mirror allows faster framing, and less pixels than full frame will help it shove those frames through the processor quickly. And TBH I think Canon likes to force some differentiation with Nikon, just for marketing reasons.

Edit: if there was big demand for a cheap full frame camera per se then used 5D's would be increasing in price, and Canon would still be producing it. They have fully recovered all their costs on that camera and could knock it out very competitively. And I'm sure they would if that was the best way to turn a penny, but if it takes sales from other more profitable lines, they're not going to do it. Cheap full frame would also be way off brand for Canon.

 

[pearce_jj]

If there was big demand for a cheap full frame camera per se then used 5D's would be increasing in price, and Canon would still be producing it. They have fully recovered all their costs on that camera and could knock it out very competitively. And I'm sure they would if that was the best way to turn a penny, but if it takes sales from other more profitable lines, they're not going to do it. Cheap full frame would also be way off brand for Canon.

It's a really good point, I wonder if Canon have considered this. It is becoming more comon in other industries.

Personally I jumped at the 5D when it was on run-out, £1600 with the 24-105 F4L.

 

[Arkady]

Or they'll just do what they already do with the D3/D3x - offer an FX camera with optional DX-capability for those who want additional frame-rate and lens-'reach'...

 

[mrgubby]

The price differential between FF & 'crop' sensors is a purely artificial marketing price point.

It's like the price difference between a 1.6 & 2.0 litre car, the car costs the same to make, we just pay more for it

 

[pearce_jj]

not sure about that, there must be lower yield for such big sensors.

 

[EmZee]

there must be lower yield for such big sensors.

I'm sure I once read something along those lines at luminous-landscape.com