White-Tailed Eagle problem.

JohnC6

JohnC6

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I was taken aback today to read that Angus MacNeil, the SNP MP for The Western Isles, is calling for a cull of WTEs because they're killing lambs. As a crofter he keeps lambs himself. Mr MacNeil said crofters and farmers in parts of the Western Isles and west Highlands were losing large numbers of young lambs and tougher measures were needed in certain areas.

I'm pleased to see that the RSPB Scotland is not 'shouting him down' but wanting to work with crofters to find a solution other than culling and as reported in the last paragraph NFU Scotland member, David Colthart, said diversionary feeding must be given a chance.Hopefully, a solution will be found.

The photos of dead lambs are in the Facebook link.

Dated April 13th. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-61079397.amp
 
This isn't the first time this has been raised. Reintroductions come with their perils - just because a species used to be here doesn't mean it's always a good idea to bring it back - but this seems to come a poor second to the greater gods of good intentions and tourism. I see WTEs regularly when we go to Scotland. They're okay but tbh I get an awful lot more excited seeing a golden eagle.
 
When you have a large predator and a convenient food source, what does any sensible person expect?

The re-introduction plan should have considered the effect on the crofts and farms within the likely hunting range and required the body re-introducing the birds to set up a compensation scheme.
 
Jannyfox said:
I see WTEs regularly when we go to Scotland. They're okay but tbh I get an awful lot more excited seeing a golden eagle.
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Although I don't always see WTEs when in NW Scotland( I once saw two within half an hour but then no others for months and months) they are certainly more visible than golden eagles.

Dave
 
It is a difficult situation. I can imagine a WTE(or indeed, golden eagle) might well attack a young lamb but inevitably it is difficult to be sure if an eagle killed a lamb or the lamb died for some other reason and an eagle scavenged it. A study in 2010 in one area of the NW suggested less the 2% of lamb deaths were directly linked to WTEs (link - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/8672873.stm ), but this is only one study and from a time when there were fewer WTEs than now.

Dave

 
jerry12953 said:
Agreed with the point above. There's no evidence that the eagles killed live lambs.
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Regardless of the evidence, it's the "Caesar's Wife" principle in reverse: dead livestock plus newly introduced predator equals "the birds did it".

Those who re-introduced the birds should have considered that and taken steps to prevent friction.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
When you have a large predator and a convenient food source, what does any sensible person expect?

The re-introduction plan should have considered the effect on the crofts and farms within the likely hunting range and required the body re-introducing the birds to set up a compensation scheme.
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Something like the Sea Eagle Management Scheme ?

www.nature.scot

Sea Eagle Management Scheme

The Sea Eagle Management Scheme offers support to Farmers and Crofters affected by sea eagle predation. More information on the Scheme is available on this page
www.nature.scot www.nature.scot
 
jerry12953 said:
Agreed with the point above. There's no evidence that the eagles killed live lambs.
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This might not be correct.

"More recent work which has looked at the remains left in nests alongside post mortems carried out as part of SNH’s Sea Eagle Scheme and the use of nest cameras confirm that in some cases, white-tailed eagle are bringing freshly dead lamb carcasses to the nest and, in a number of cases, these lambs are likely to have been healthy when they were caught. Therefore, it is accepted that white-tailed eagle predation is a factor in some lamb losses."

White-tailed Eagle Action Plan - Questions and Answers

Published
www.nature.scot www.nature.scot
 
I find it very sad that some humans want to kill anything that reduces their profit, foxes, badgers, dogs, Birds, Bees ... when will we learn to live in harmony with nature.
Ironic that they are breeding animals for human consumption but object to anything else eating their profits.

PS I am not a vegan or vegetarian
 
From memory there have been occasions in the past with "Golden" Eagles have been confirmed as taking live lambs.

This seems to be individual birds who develops the skill, and licenses have been issued to kill these individuals.

Sad as this is, I suspect this is a better approach for the species survival, than a flat refusal to issue licenses, which might just encourage illegal indiscriminate killings.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
When you have a large predator and a convenient food source, what does any sensible person expect?

The re-introduction plan should have considered the effect on the crofts and farms within the likely hunting range and required the body re-introducing the birds to set up a compensation scheme.
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Agree with you. Compensation has to be given. It was the idea of killing WTEs that took me aback not the scenario of predator/prey. I wasn't aware they were killing lambs,either.I thought they'd be after fish in the lochs, mammals, the likes of rabbits and carrion. After doing some checking I see that in Finland White-tailed Eagles pose a threat to reindeer calves. A study there showed that their diet consisted of fish at 64.3% birds accounting for 28.5% and mammals 7.2%. They,just like the study..link posted by Tringa (above).. didn't establish if ,in the case of the Finnish study, non-breeding sub-adults, actually killed the calves or came across them as carrion.

The article I posted re Scotland didn't state how many lambs are being lost other than 'large numbers' The article states that NatureScot runs the sea eagle management scheme, which gathers evidence of eagles' effects on livestock and provides equipment to scare off the birds. I see Graham has mentioned it and posted the link.

I did a Google just now. Methods have included inflatable scarecrows, reflective helium balloons, lasers and having people walk around hillsides.

Quite a comprehensive article in the FWI.. a leading Farming magazine. https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/why-scots-farmers-need-solution-to-lambs-lost-to-sea-eagles
 
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Compuwight said:
I find it very sad that some humans want to kill anything that reduces their profit, foxes, badgers, dogs, Birds, Bees ... when will we learn to live in harmony with nature.
Ironic that they are breeding animals for human consumption but object to anything else eating their profits.

PS I am not a vegan or vegetarian
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That very thought crossed my mind, too. The best solution is compensation. as the price to be paid for the re-introduction of what was natural and an iconic bird.
 
I don't know if there are anymore reintroductions of WTEs planned and I can understand the re-introduction of species that we have lost, perhaps especially so if humans have been directly involved, which is the case for WTEs

However, do we need to continue with re-introductions when the population appears to be doing well. Why not let the birds spread to other areas by themselves?

I could be talking rubbish and more reintroductions/relocations might be needed to establish a viable breeding population but sometimes I feel they are more for human wants than for the birds.

Dave
 
There have been plans to re-introduce WTE's into two areas of East Anglia, but both were dropped, no doubt at the request of the farming unions!. It was thought that both areas were more suitable for WTE's than the west coast of Scotland, where they probably "retreated" having been exterminated elsewhere. There has been a project looking into the possibility of re-introducing them into Wales, which would no doubt have had WTE's in times gone by. In the rest of their (European) range they are by no means restricted to rugged and mountainous coastlines.

It is an interesting point you raise about whether these projects satisfy our "needs" rather than the needs of the birds but I think you answered the question in your first sentence. :)
 
Controlling re-introductions of animals that will compete with or harm domestic animals is essential to avoid the growth of an entrenched "anti" lobby.

I've lived in a farming community for many years and believe that most working farmers are positively disposed towards wildlife. However, few farmers are the rich landowners that urban dwellers appear to imagine. Many are balanced on a knife edge economically and the loss of a single lamb or a calf can trigger serious financial problems.

This is one reason why the NFU, mostly composed of such ordinary farmers, has an ambivalent attitude towards re-introduction. Many of the species that were removed from the British environment were serious competitors with humans and bringing them back, without an effective plan to control their interaction with humans, is not a good idea.
 
You can be sure that all re-introductions are very tightly controlled with something like 53 criteria needing to be satisfied.

I wish I could share you opinions about farmers attitude to wildlife. The farming unions keep plugging the line that "farmers look after the environment" when in reality what they may do (in some cases) is look after what's left of the environment, after decades of intensification. Farmers in my part of the world (Wales) are highly subsidised by the public purse and yet still think they can do whatever they like on the land that they farm, with no thought for the wildlife that tries to make a living there. Only a few weeks ago the NFU Wales came out against the re-introduction of beavers saying - quite ironically - that they would "disrupt nature's delicate balance" when their members have been doing just that for many decades and still deny any responsibility for the loss of wildlife that has been the result.

I will leave it at that and try not contribute any further to this thread; I will just get too angry!
 
jerry12953 said:
I will leave it at that and try not contribute any further to this thread; I will just get too angry!
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I don't think there's anything to get angry about.

Instead, try to see past some of the misinformation about British farming, which has been put about by various parties, including (I might add) the NFU. The urban British have long had an ambivalent relationship with farming due to this welter of untruth. This has led to the neglect of farming by politicians so that we are nearly back to the situation before WW2, with only 54% of our food being grown in Britain. ( https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/united-kingdom-food-security-report-2021/united-kingdom-food-security-report-2021-theme-2-uk-food-supply-sources#:~:text=About 54% of food on,subsequent indicators will set out. )

When you realise that the entire farming sector generated only £5,121 million pounds in 2020 ( https://assets.publishing.service.g...74/agricaccounts_tiffstatsnotice-16dec21i.pdf ) then it is quite clear how little money goes into the sector, which has to compete with cheap foreign imports from economies where the workers could only dream of what we consider to be low incomes.

Any discussion of the principles and effects of re-introduction schemes has to start from the effect on agriculture - a vital industry that has been under a great deal of pressure for many years.
 
jerry12953 said:
The thing I get most angry about is the misinformation put about by the farming unions, similar that which you are quoting in your post above.
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I can't make any sensible response to that. :(
 
jerry12953 said:
The thing I get most angry about is the misinformation put about by the farming unions, similar that which you are quoting in your post above.
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I spent twelve months working on a local nature reserve many years back and it opened my eyes to how the conservation lobby can be 'economical with the truth'.
 
jerry12953 said:
You can be sure that all re-introductions are very tightly controlled with something like 53 criteria needing to be satisfied.

I wish I could share you opinions about farmers attitude to wildlife. The farming unions keep plugging the line that "farmers look after the environment" when in reality what they may do (in some cases) is look after what's left of the environment, after decades of intensification. Farmers in my part of the world (Wales) are highly subsidised by the public purse and yet still think they can do whatever they like on the land that they farm, with no thought for the wildlife that tries to make a living there. Only a few weeks ago the NFU Wales came out against the re-introduction of beavers saying - quite ironically - that they would "disrupt nature's delicate balance" when their members have been doing just that for many decades and still deny any responsibility for the loss of wildlife that has been the result.

I will leave it at that and try not contribute any further to this thread; I will just get too angry!
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Yes I agree with your sentiments, there has been a huge drop in insect numbers due in a large part to spraying of chemicals
This has a knock on effect onto the food chain things like birds depend on insects to feed their young
It makes me angry as well when I see statements like farmers are protecting the land
Some do but they are in a minority
Of course we all have to eat but it can be done in a better way
 
LCPete said:
Of course we all have to eat but it can be done in a better way
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Perhaps you can suggest what that better way is, how it will affect food quantity and what effect it will have on costs and incomes?

I came face to face with the realities of farming in the early 1980s, when I did a stint at a start up software house, developing software on small computers for the agricultural market. We had a dozen farmers who had agreed to work as real world testers in return for the hardware and software. When I started to check report accuracy, the low margins and profits shown convinced me that we had done something horribly wrong, until the testers assured me that the results agreed with their paper accounts.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Perhaps you can suggest what that better way is, how it will affect food quantity and what effect it will have on costs and incomes?

I came face to face with the realities of farming in the early 1980s, when I did a stint at a start up software house, developing software on small computers for the agricultural market. We had a dozen farmers who had agreed to work as real world testers in return for the hardware and software. When I started to check report accuracy, the low margins and profits shown convinced me that we had done something horribly wrong, until the testers assured me that the results agreed with their paper accounts.
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I’m not saying that I know all the answers just saying what I’ve observed and read about the big decline in insect numbers but surely the industry could use chemicals that don’t affect harmless insects like bumble bees so adversely
 
LCPete said:
I’m not saying that I know all the answers just saying what I’ve observed and read about the big decline in insect numbers but surely the industry could use chemicals that don’t affect harmless insects like bumble bees so adversely
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Can they?

Perhaps you could suggest a few trade names of alternative products? The truth is that there are too many people who think that the rural areas of Britain should be one big play park for the urban populations, not realising that farming is an industry like any other. You would hardly expect to stroll through an iron foundry or an integrated circuit fabrication plant, would you?
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Can they?

Perhaps you could suggest a few trade names of alternative products? The truth is that there are too many people who think that the rural areas of Britain should be one big play park for the urban populations, not realising that farming is an industry like any other. You would hardly expect to stroll through an iron foundry or an integrated circuit fabrication plant, would you?
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Think we will have to agree to differ, maybe you’re ok with the way that our wildlife is disappearing but I’m certainly not .
I will drop out of this thread now
 
Farmers are only responding to the market and to what politicians have demanded in the past. If the nation wants cheap food you get the agriculture industry we have now.
 
Ed Sutton said:
Farmers are only responding to the market and to what politicians have demanded in the past. If the nation wants cheap food you get the agriculture industry we have now..
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It's an emotive issue but that's why any discussion has to be based on documented fact and not on myth.

It's the determination of so many people to base their decisions on opinion rather than fact that causes so much grief all round. When re-introductions are to be considered, it's necessary that all the ramifications are considered soberly and plans made to overcome negative effects.
 
jerry12953 said:
If I might just come in here, there are so many "facts" put about by the farming unions which are anything but. Does anyone remember "The Guardians of the Countryside"?
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Who are you and why are you impersonating Jeremy??? :ROFLMAO:
 
jerry12953 said:
If I might just come in here, there are so many "facts" put about by the farming unions which are anything but. Does anyone remember "The Guardians of the Countryside"?
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The RSPB's current slogan is "Giving nature a home." Locally it ought to be "Giving nature (except foxes) a home", because the two reserves have been fenced off to keep them out.

Both 'sides' put their own spin on the 'facts', and seek to manage their land to their own ends.

As long as things carry on that way nothing will improve. There has to be give and take on both sides.
 
Ed Sutton said:
The RSPB's current slogan is "Giving nature a home." Locally it ought to be "Giving nature (except foxes) a home", because the two reserves have been fenced off to keep them out.

Both 'sides' put their own spin on the 'facts', and seek to manage their land to their own ends.

As long as things carry on that way nothing will improve. There has to be give and take on both sides.
Click to expand...

I'd hazard a guess that rare, possibly nationally or internationally protected, ground-nesting birds are found within the exclosure. There are difficult grey areas where sometimes extreme measures have to be taken to protect rare bird species (for example). I'm sure many of those involved in protecting rare birds have to occasionally make those difficult decisions; I wouldn't like to have to do it.
 
jerry12953 said:
I'd hazard a guess that rare, possibly nationally or internationally protected, ground-nesting birds are found within the exclosure. There are difficult grey areas where sometimes extreme measures have to be taken to protect rare bird species (for example). I'm sure many of those involved in protecting rare birds have to occasionally make those difficult decisions; I wouldn't like to have to do it.
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The RSPB also cull/control deer, foxes, mink, gulls, corvids, rabbits etc as part of managing their reserves for birds and other wildlife. Lots of difficult land management choices to be made whether you are managing land for conservation or food production.
 
jerry12953 said:
I'd hazard a guess that rare, possibly nationally or internationally protected, ground-nesting birds are found within the exclosure.
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In one case avocets nest - which usually fail to get chicks to fledge thanks to the blackheaded gull colony. What else nests on that marsh I don't know (apart from the gulls there maybe lapwings). The sites are more noted for wintering waterfowl and waders as far as I know. Maybe the idea is to encourage nesting.
 
myotis said:
Lots of difficult land management choices to be made whether you are managing land for conservation or food production.
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This is the reality.

I imagine that a case could be made out, by a sufficiently determined pressure group, that culling other wild species to protect a bird species is inhumane. How would the RSPB fare if they found themselves on the receiving end of a campaign to save rabbits from predatory birds?

Sometimes, it's necessary to use a reductio ad absurdum to expose the fallacies in a widely held belief.
 
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