Beginner WHY AM I STILL FAILING WITH NO FLASH??? HELP !!

gothgirl

gothgirl

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Right I am getting really fed up now, where am I going wrong ?

I was recently shooting indoors... where I cannot use flash.
It was floodlit, and not dark by any means, but because of animals involved I was not allowed to use flash

  • I had my ISO on my 40d as high as it goes (H) ....
  • I had +2 exposure comp
  • Slowest shutter speed I could manage in the circumstances (1/80 - 1/100)
  • And my lens on the lowest aperture it would go (3.5 on my 18-55 and between 1.8-2.8 on my nifty fifty)

So as far as I can tell I am doing everything I can.... but still my images are SO soft and noisy it's driving me mad.

The noise doesn't make me as mad as how soft everything is ! ! !

Grrrr...if I could just get this right I would be so much happier
 
Might be bveter if you posted some shots you were unhappy with, I'm sure someone will come along and let you know where you are going wrong.
 
•
1—
You should test what is the highest ISO/noise ratio that you camera
renders with acceptable results
2—
Any AF will work best if enough contrast is available to focus on. If
your shots are too soft, there was not enough contrast and/or not
enough light.
3—
Animals are not so much impressed by lightnings in nature as by
thunder. I hardly remember any animal that was disturbed by my
flash impulses… at a reasonable rate that is!

Nevertheless, a picture is a thousand words…
 
Here you go.

I am happy with my outdoor shot... but not the indoor one

It's soft and noisy, but both were done without flash.

Surely I am getting something wrong ?

This can't just be the difference between natural light and indoor light ?
 

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gothgirl said:
This can't just be the difference between natural light and indoor light ?
Click to expand...
•
Natural light and indoor light… as long as the luminosity is there,
the rest is quality and WB.
 
Difficult to see on images that size, but they look slightly out of focus.
 
i might suggest the 40d is not the most modern body and not got the best sensor for low light
maybe need a faster lens than the 18-55mm
you could probably get away with a slower shutter speed as the lens will have I S try 60th or even 30th hand held
 
holty said:
i might suggest the 40d is not the most modern body and not got the best sensor for low light
maybe need a faster lens than the 18-55mm
you could probably get away with a slower shutter speed as the lens will have I S try 60th or even 30th hand held
Click to expand...

I tried with the nifty fifty.. slightly better at 1.8 and 2.8.. but then there's a DOF issue for these kinds of images.

The 1/60 or 1/30 is not fast enough, to freeze a running dog, with no motion blur , I tried.
 
Indoors isn't as 'bright' as you think it is.

The 40d at high ISOs is a bit pants by modern standards. You need flash :)
 
holty said:
i might suggest the 40d is not the most modern body and not got the best sensor for low light
maybe need a faster lens than the 18-55mm
you could probably get away with a slower shutter speed as the lens will have I S try 60th or even 30th hand held
Click to expand...
IS doesn't help with moving subjects
 
Phil V said:
Indoors isn't as 'bright' as you think it is.

The 40d at high ISOs is a bit pants by modern standards. You need flash :)
Click to expand...
Agreed, the eyes are very deceiving in low light as they are very good at adapting and we do not perceive how low the light actually is.
 
Phil V said:
Indoors isn't as 'bright' as you think it is.

The 40d at high ISOs is a bit pants by modern standards. You need flash :)
Click to expand...

I'm not allowed to use flash when dogs are in the ring, in case it distracts them
It's not a personal choice not to use it.

I've been very happy with my 40d, but lowlight is where it falls down
Can you recommend a upgrade ? Or not so much an upgrade... but a similar move across that might be better in low light

snerkler said:
Agreed, the eyes are very deceiving in low light as they are very good at adapting and we do not perceive how low the light actually is.
Click to expand...

I know natural light is much better, but this was a big floodlit sports hall...
 
Just to check, you're using continuous autofocus right? I think it's called AI servo mode on Canon. Obviously if you're using single locked focus point then once the dog moves, it will be OOF.
 
htid said:
Just to check, you're using continuous autofocus right? I think it's called AI servo mode on Canon. Obviously if you're using single locked focus point then once the dog moves, it will be OOF.
Click to expand...

I've tried all three focus modes.

but ignoring the main focus point... the overall image is still the same... soft and very noisy.
 
The problems are;
high ISO equal noisy images
Moving subjects at slow shutter speeds means soft images
Big apertures (ie f3.5, f2.8 f1.8) means shallow depth of field (what's in focus)

What you need is either flash, but your not allowed, or a camera that has
gothgirl said:
I'm not allowed to use flash when dogs are in the ring, in case it distracts them
It's not a personal choice not to use it.

I've been very happy with my 40d, but lowlight is where it falls down
Can you recommend a upgrade ? Or not so much an upgrade... but a similar move across that might be better in low light



I know natural light is much better, but this was a big floodlit sports hall...
Click to expand...

An upgrade depends on what you are willing to spend on a camera body and perhaps a replacement lens for the 18-55mm, it's not fast enough for this type of indoor photography
 
gothgirl said:
I'm not allowed to use flash when dogs are in the ring, in case it distracts them
It's not a personal choice not to use it.

I've been very happy with my 40d, but lowlight is where it falls down
Can you recommend a upgrade ? Or not so much an upgrade... but a similar move across that might be better in low light



I know natural light is much better, but this was a big floodlit sports hall...
Click to expand...
Yes but light levels are still low. I'd say go out and test it yourself with a light meter, but then your camera's meter is already doing this by telling you you need high ISO and low shutter speeds.

If you could get a f2.8 lens then this would allow you to quadruple shutter speed compared with using f5.6 and at least have a chance of stopping motion blur of the moving dogs. You'll still have noisy images due to your camera's poor ISO handling but I'd rather this than blurred images.

Unfortunately this is a scenario where the equipment isn't up to the job.
 
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Nawty said:
But she has a nifty fifty f/1.8 so I'd just use that.
Click to expand...
Oops missed that ;)

So just seen this, gothgirl what distance are you shooting from? Looking at those photos it looks a fair distance so depth of field shouldn't be an issue.
 
Nawty said:
But she has a nifty fifty f/1.8 so I'd just use that.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the nifty fifty has the DOF issue... yes shooting at 1.8 means I have a slightly better image overall.. but half of the image is blur/gone because of DOF.
 
snerkler said:
Oops missed that ;)

So just seen this, gothgirl what distance are you shooting from? Looking at those photos it looks a fair distance so depth of field shouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...

Right outside the ring.

It's more the distance of the dog from the owner... having the dog in focus, can throw the owner out if you know what I mean ?
 
gothgirl said:
Right outside the ring.

It's more the distance of the dog from the owner... having the dog in focus, can throw the owner out if you know what I mean ?
Click to expand...
Yep I know what you mean. If you can get shots like your last one then the owner is roughly in the same plane of focus so should be OK. However, if you are wanting most of the frame in focus then your only option is then ramping up ISO so ideally you need a camera with high ISO capabilities. What ISO were you shooting at?

Personally if I was shooting this as long as the dog was in focus I wouldn't mind if the owner wasn't and would sacrifice the owner in order to get a nice sharp clean image.
 
Shallow DoF would not be a disadvantage in the shots you have here, provided the subject (dog) was always in focus, and for shot 2 it would positively help clean up the background. It will require more careful focusing however, simply because you can't rely on DoF to be 4 feet deep. If the camera can't keep up with a moving target then use the technique that predates AF and focus on a spot in front of the subject, taking the picture as they reach the spot.
 
snerkler said:
Yep I know what you mean. If you can get shots like your last one then the owner is roughly in the same plane of focus so should be OK. However, if you are wanting most of the frame in focus then your only option is then ramping up ISO so ideally you need a camera with high ISO capabilities. What ISO were you shooting at?

Personally if I was shooting this as long as the dog was in focus I wouldn't mind if the owner wasn't and would sacrifice the owner in order to get a nice sharp clean image.
Click to expand...

True, and I concur personally...but most owners want themselves in the shot too..

ancient_mariner said:
Shallow DoF would not be a disadvantage in the shots you have here, provided the subject (dog) was always in focus, and for shot 2 it would positively help clean up the background. It will require more careful focusing however, simply because you can't rely on DoF to be 4 feet deep. If the camera can't keep up with a moving target then use the technique that predates AF and focus on a spot in front of the subject, taking the picture as they reach the spot.
Click to expand...

That would be easy, if the dogs walked the same path every time.

But depending on what the judge asks for (differenet movements) and if the dog behaves, or moves off the mat etc its not always reliable
 
gothgirl said:
True, and I concur personally...but most owners want themselves in the shot too..
Click to expand...
Then you only have one option, a camera with good high ISO performance.
 
I would avoid the times when they are being lead down the carpet. Grab them whilst they are as still as possible, and maybe utilise a gorillapod or other lens support / bean bag to cut any movement from you. Practice your camera hold..You Tube has suggestions. Also practice panning.

Guess what you should add to your Christmas List?
 
A 50mm lens at f/1.8 on your body at 25' away would give you 2.86' behind and 2.32' in front of your focus point so bit of scope for both dog and owner. You could then crop in to present a reasonable shot..........................

FYI there is a software package called OpticsPro 10 Elite that offers the best noise reduction possible via software so should enable you to get the best out of your equipment without spending £££ upgrading both body and lenses. Free 30 day trial so worth a punt. Shoot in raw for best results!!
 
snerkler said:
Then you only have one option, a camera with good high ISO performance.
Click to expand...

I have been thinking of trading up to the 50d... which is supposedly better at low ligh
shreds said:
I would avoid the times when they are being lead down the carpet. Grab them whilst they are as still as possible, and maybe utilise a gorillapod or other lens support / bean bag to cut any movement from you. Practice your camera hold..You Tube has suggestions. Also practice panning.

Guess what you should add to your Christmas List?
Click to expand...

Gorillapod ? Can't really attach it to the tickertape though...
 
Ady N said:
A 50mm lens at f/1.8 on your body at 25' away would give you 2.86' behind and 2.32' in front of your focus point so bit of scope for both dog and owner. You could then crop in to present a reasonable shot..........................

FYI there is a software package called OpticsPro 10 Elite that offers the best noise reduction possible via software so should enable you to get the best out of your equipment without spending £££ upgrading both body and lenses. Free 30 day trial so worth a punt. Shoot in raw for best results!!
Click to expand...

I do shoot in raw

will look into that software, thanks :)
 
I own a 40D (among other cameras) and ISO 3200 is not good, as others have said, compared to newer cameras (I also own a 70D and Olympus E-M5MarkII cameras..
#1 Are you shooting RAW? (edit - just seen the above post).
#2 Are you using noise reduction, possibly selectively. when post processing?

Try it and see how you go.
Re focus tracking - the kit lens and the 50mm f1.8 are really not known as superfast/accurate foocussing lenses. (I own both)
#3 Are you using any filters on the front of your lens?
If so remove them.

See how you go.
If you find you still have problems when using your existing gear you may need to consider an upgrade of both bodies and lens(es).
 
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RichardTaylor said:
I own a 40D (among other cameras) and ISO 3200 is not good, as others have said, compared to newer cameras (I also own a 70D and Olympus E-M5MarkII cameras..
#1 Are you shooting RAW? (edit - just seen the above post). = Yes I'm shooting in raw
#2 Are you using noise reduction, possibly selectively. when post processing? = Yes in camera raw, bridge or LR depending on how I feel

Try it and see how you go.
Re focus tracking - the kit lens and the 50mm f1.8 are really not known as superfast/accurate foocussing lenses. (I own both)
#3 Are you using any filters on the front of your lens? = no i am not
If so remove them.

See how you go.
If you find you still have problems when using your existing gear you may need to consider an upgrade of both bodies and lens(es).
Click to expand...
 
gothgirl said:
I have been thinking of trading up to the 50d... which is supposedly better at low ligh


Gorillapod ? Can't really attach it to the tickertape though...
Click to expand...
I can't see anywhere where you've said what ISO you were shooting at, but going on others' comments I'm guessing it's 3200, so in order to get shutter speed higher in order to reduce motion blur you're going to have to shoot at 6400 or 12800 ISO, and at these levels you are only really going to get clean images with a full frame camera IMO (YMMV)
 
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