Why are people buying electric cars?

[ecoleman]

I don't know anybody who thinks EVs will be "tax exempt" forever. Pretty sure I said as much earlier in this thread.

My bet is it will be replaced by a road usage charge. The pay per mile they have wanted for ages. We have enough tech to make that fairly doable, but it will take a while to implement and be pretty costly outside of London.

At the moment, hmg are in the recruiting phase - making EVs attractive so that they can let tax them.

I have no problem with a pay per mile system as long as it's fairly priced and is the only system for taxation and not on top of everything else we pay for the privilege of driving.

It also can't just rely on ANPR as that's just going to mean an awful lot of cloned number plates.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

At the moment, hmg are in the recruiting phase - making EVs attractive so that they can let tax them.

Wouldn't it have been more sensible to just set the VED for all electric cars to the average rate of combined fuel duty and VED for ICE cars?

 

[ecoleman]

It isn't.

Very few taxes are hypothecated.

you are correct but the fact remains that roads need maintaining (regardless of how your vehicle is powered) and that money comes from taxation.

 

[Pound Coin]

I have no problem with a pay per mile system as long as it's fairly priced and is the only system for taxation and not on top of everything else we pay for the privilege of driving.

It also can't just rely on ANPR as that's just going to mean an awful lot of cloned number plates.

It is good that you see driving as a privilege.

Mileage of cars is taken every year, once they have an MOT. Expanding that is a possibility.

 

[Pound Coin]

you are correct but the fact remains that roads need maintaining (regardless of how your vehicle is powered) and that money comes from taxation.

That's a different fact. And not relevant in the discussion.

Tax take in the UK £786bn
Fuel duty in the UK £25bn

So, even if what you say was given the light of day, Fuel duty in the UK accounts for about 3% of the total tax take. That's tiny.

 

[yzfmike]

The reason I rarely participate in this type of thread is that I find it sad that they, almost invariably, end up with two diametrically opposed positions. People don’t seem to acknowledge that there are shades of grey in the argument. I think EVs have a part to play in the personal transport system but they can never, IMO, be the answer to every health or climate change issue. You have EVangelists who think anyone who wants an ICE vehicle is a Luddite, and ICE enthusiasts who refuse to see ANY benefits of EVs.

I speak as someone who spent many years in involved in the development of performance/economy/emissions of ICEs but, even I am willing to acknowledge that EVs have a useful role.

I’m off now to read the photography-related threads - bye for now. Carry on knocking bits off one another.

 

[ecoleman]

It is good that you see driving as a privilege.

That was said very much with tongue in cheek so get over yourself.

I don't drive a lot, I work from home but when I drive it's because I have to. Believe it or not we don't all have a functioning bus service or an underground we can hop on.

We have one bus service here that goes to between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth once an hour. That's fine if you just want to pop into Carmarthen for a bit of a jolly (as long as you're home before 6pm) but not convenient when lugging a weekly shop home with you. Carmarthen is our closest town and is 11 miles away.

We used to have a book a bus service which you had to book in advance. The service was used a lot by the elderly although it was expensive even though it was subsidised by the welsh government. Well they've just pulled the funding for that. So on the one hand we are told to use public transport and on the other they are removing the little transport there is.

If I want to go anywhere else other than the few towns and villages between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth, which I never do, I have no choice but to drive.

 

[Pound Coin]

That was said very much with tongue in cheek so get over yourself.

Cheers!

I don't drive a lot, I work from home but when I drive it's because I have to. Believe it or not we don't all have a functioning bus service or an underground we can hop on.

We have one bus service here that goes to between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth once an hour. That's fine if you just want to pop into Carmarthen for a bit of a jolly (as long as you're home before 6pm) but not convenient when lugging a weekly shop home with you. Carmarthen is our closest town and is 11 miles away.

We used to have a book a bus service which you had to book in advance. The service was used a lot by the elderly although it was expensive even though it was subsidised by the welsh government. Well they've just pulled the funding for that. So on the one hand we are told to use public transport and on the other they are removing the little transport there is.

If I want to go anywhere else other than the few towns and villages between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth, I have no choice but to drive.

What you are describing is the result of car ownership and use. And deregulation, but that's another story.

What appears to be happening now, in Wales and other places, is a bit of a change, reflecting the damage that private cars do to communities, the environment, our health and so on.

 

[Denis99]

The upkeep of the roads is largely paid by anyone who pays income tax, and local community tax.

It doesn’t rely on you using the roads, owning any type of vehicle.

Don’t see how they can monitor and make judgements on how much electricity you use.

You can charge an EV on a three pin mains plug, just like boiling a kettle.

And don’t forget those energy hungry hot tubs.

We haven’t been cheating on Dino fuel taxation, we don’t buy it.
Just like paying no tax under the minimum earning threshold, tobacco, alcohol, air flight tax, I could go on.

But the point is, I don’t pay these taxes because I use them.

Should a cyclist pay fuel duty? Why?

Also, there are growing proportion of people who are doing what I have for quite a while, about 9 years ago.

We have solar panels on our roof, we get paid about £800 tax free for exporting to the grid , regardless of how much we export.

Also we have a Tesla Powerwall battery, the battery stores the energy from the solar panels for later use, or charging the EV.

The panels and battery contribute 67% of our electricity usage in a year.

I bought all of this with my own money, could have bought anything else instead, but realised a long time ago the electricity, in particular was only going to cost more over time.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Just tax road vehicles by weight and size, the bigger a vehicle, be it EV, ICE or run on fairy dust, the more damage it causes the roads. Small engine, small fuel load, less wear on road surfaces, less waste on tyres.

It would be very easy to tax by gross weight and size since these are decided at manufacturing and cannot normally be changed to any significant amount and it is the weight of a [two axle] vehicle that is probably the greatest cause of damage. This would also make it fairer for motorcyclists as the damage caused to road surfaces by them is insignificant and the road tax we pay is unfairly high and quite arbitrarily chosen and raised each year.

 

[Plain Nev]

Just tax road vehicles by weight and size, the bigger a vehicle, be it EV, ICE or run on fairy dust, the more damage it causes the roads. Small engine, small fuel load, less wear on road surfaces, less waste on tyres.

It would be very easy to tax by gross weight and size since these are decided at manufacturing and cannot normally be changed to any significant amount and it is the weight of a [two axle] vehicle that is probably the greatest cause of damage. This would also make it fairer for motorcyclists as the damage caused to road surfaces by them is insignificant and the road tax we pay is unfairly high and quite arbitrarily chosen and raised each year.

Can you imagine the DVLA trying to implement that? It would be a nightmare.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Can you imagine the DVLA trying to implement that? It would be a nightmare.

Not really a problem, they already do it in a much more complicated way: by year, by emissions, by purchase price, engine type, body type. Seems to me, doing it by weight and dimensions would be much more straightforward as you have the data straight from the manufacturer. You could change the law today and have it implemented within a year, two at the most.

 

[Garry Edwards]

There is no simple answer.

The only way I see it is to ditch all road tax and fuel duty and bring in a price per mile, that all cars would need to have. But that would be a huge challenge, retro fitting millions of devices, possibly to some very old cars. And if i was to drive around my local villages, what would stop me disconnecting it or not even having it installed.

Otherwise we run the risk of double taxation.

That could work, and could also be applied fairly. . .

An over-simplification obviously, but just install the technology to A-roads and above, leaving B-roads and unclassified roads out.
It would need explaining to the politicians that not everyone lives in London or another large city and that people who live in rural areas and who don't have a bus service actually need to travel by car, but if we could get that obvious fact through to them then, in effect, the people who have no choice would pay little or no tax and the people who drove only from choice would subsidise them

 

[Pound Coin]

That could work, and could also be applied fairly. . .

An over-simplification obviously, but just install the technology to A-roads and above, leaving B-roads and unclassified roads out.
It would need explaining to the politicians that not everyone lives in London or another large city and that people who live in rural areas and who don't have a bus service actually need to travel by car, but if we could get that obvious fact through to them then, in effect, the people who have no choice would pay little or no tax and the people who drove only from choice would subsidise them

The unintended consequence of this would be huge anounts of traffic using sat-nav settings to use B and unclassified roads, to avoid the charges. Huge rural road damage and congestion resulting, and a further reduction in the numbers of non-motoring journeys made as non-A roads become less attractive.

 

[Garry Edwards]

The unintended consequence of this would be huge anounts of traffic using sat-nav settings to use B and unclassified roads, to avoid the charges. Huge rural road damage and congestion resulting, and a further reduction in the numbers of non-motoring journeys made as non-A roads become less attractive.

Surely that wouldn't happen because the vast majority of people wouldn't want to increase journey time and distance by unnecessarily using longer routes and roads that can't cope with the volume?
As I said, my proposal is an over-simplification and is a bit tongue-in-cheek anyway, but a possibility surely?
And I think that the technology already exists to some extent - my eldest son has a Tesla that virtually self-drives on A roads and above, so presumably is using similar technology.

 

[Pound Coin]

Surely that wouldn't happen because the vast majority of people wouldn't want to increase journey time and distance by unnecessarily using longer routes and roads that can't cope with the volume?
As I said, my proposal is an over-simplification and is a bit tongue-in-cheek anyway, but a possibility surely?
And I think that the technology already exists to some extent - my eldest son has a Tesla that virtually self-drives on A roads and above, so presumably is using similar technology.

You’d be surprised at the lengths people go to avoid paying money for driving. Plus nowadays knowledge of maps and traditional route planning is being fast eroded by sat navs. Every time I drive to my local city I am offered the opportunity to avoid the congestion and ulez zones. That’s two instances where the calculation is longer distance and time being suggested over a charge. Although, to be fair, I do update my sat nav, lots of people don’t.

 

[Garry Edwards]

You’d be surprised at the lengths people go to avoid paying money for driving. Plus nowadays knowledge of maps and traditional route planning is being fast eroded by sat navs. Every time I drive to my local city I am offered the opportunity to avoid the congestion and ulez zones. That’s two instances where the calculation is longer distance and time being suggested over a charge. Although, to be fair, I do update my sat nav, lots of people don’t.

I agree with you about the use of satnavs.
Our farm is connected to the next farm, and then to the main road network, by an unsurfaced track that is officially designated as a road. It's fine for tractors and, in summer, can be used by real 4WD vehicles that have adequate ground clearance, but satnavs show it to be a road and we get quite a few people who ignore what their eyes tell them and blindly try their luck. Many are Amazon delivery drivers (high staff turnover)? And it's almost routine now to pull them out with our forklift or one of our tractors.

There was a young couple last year who tried it in a campervan, eventually the driver realised that he couldn't go any further and tried to turn around, there wasn't enough width and the van rolled nearly 300 metres down a steep hill, through a wheat field. By some miracle, it stayed upright and neither was injured. It took both a large tractor and a forklift to get that one out

Tractor in front, pulling it up the hill, me in the forklift behind, with fork tines under the van to stop it tipping over, an interesting driving experience . . .

 

[Steep]

If you want to charge per mile for car use it's very simple and cheap to do, at least from the car end.
My company car has a GPS tracker in it and I can see at a glance exactly how far I have driven.
Automated software collects the data from the tracker and you get charged accordingly. Make it a monthly charge so you don't face huge bills at year end and the system is not overloaded as it might be trying to collate data on a daily basis.

 

[Unlocker]

An interesting video to add into the conversation:

Top Gear should do more things like this and they should be on the telly too.

 

[Craig1912]

Interesting….

Auto execs are coming clean: EVs aren't working

From GM to Tesla to Mercedes, execs across the auto industry are tempering expectations on electric vehicles.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[ShinySideUp]

Interesting….

Auto execs are coming clean: EVs aren't working

From GM to Tesla to Mercedes, execs across the auto industry are tempering expectations on electric vehicles.

www.businessinsider.com

Finally, people are starting to see the Emperors New Clothes, the false dawn that is battery cars; only hydrogen fuel cells can save the dream.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Finally, people are starting to see the Emperors New Clothes...

The money men were bound to realise that you can only fool a limited number of people and only for a limited time.

 

[cambsno]

Finally, people are starting to see the Emperors New Clothes, the false dawn that is battery cars; only hydrogen fuel cells can save the dream.

Not at all, I think Tesla have really hit the rest of the market hard. From a price/performace pov they are hard to beat... Mine was cheaper than a smaller VWID3 with less kit, range and performance.

Plenty of very happy EV drivers. If I won the lottery I would still have a Tesla (but probably an Aston Martin and Land Rover too)!

There is no conspiracy, EV cars are good and a viable alternative for many people

 

[ShinySideUp]

Not at all, I think Tesla have really hit the rest of the market hard. From a price/performace pov they are hard to beat... Mine was cheaper than a smaller VWID3 with less kit, range and performance.

Plenty of very happy EV drivers. If I won the lottery I would still have a Tesla (but probably an Aston Martin and Land Rover too)!

There is no conspiracy, EV cars are good and a viable alternative for many people

According to the article, even Tesla admit a downturn in sales...

"While GM's about-face was somewhat of a surprise to investors, the Detroit car company is not alone in this new view of the EV future. Even Tesla's Elon Musk warned on a recent earnings call that economic concerns would lead to waning vehicle demand, even for the long-time EV market leader."

I wouldn't consider anything other than a Tesla, IF I was looking to buy an EV, as I think they are the only ones who have any idea what they are doing, everyone else is just bandwagon-jumping and hoping for the best.

 

[Nod]

I'd be looking at a Kia EV-6 rather than a Tesla. The (however much would be left of it when I could afford it!) 7 year warranty is a big incentive.

 

[Mr Bump]

Electric and hybrid cars sales stats​

Demand for plug-in electric passenger cars has grown significantly in recent years. In 2014, just 2.2% of all new passenger cars were electric. This figure has grown to 16.6% in 2022 and sales of new electric cars will increase as the UK approaches the extended 2035 ban on new petrol and diesel car sales.

Plug-in hybrid and self-charging hybrid cars had a respective 2022 market share of 6.3% and 11.6% in the UK. These cars are currently popular with drivers who want an electrified car with low tailpipe emissions but do not want the range constraints of a pure battery-electric vehicle.

Mild hybrid electric petrol cars accounted for 13.6% market share in 2022 while mild hybrid diesel cars made up 4.5% of the market. As a result, UK average new car CO2 fell 6.9% to 111.4g/km - the lowest in history.

The sale of new self-charging hybrid cars will end in 2030, as part of the UK Government's step towards net-zero. The sale of some new plug-in hybrid cars, however, will be allowed to continue until 2035.

(Source: SMMT, DfT)

 

[Nod]

Finally, people are starting to see the Emperors New Clothes, the false dawn that is battery cars; only hydrogen fuel cells can save the dream.

I think it's more likely to be market saturation. People who are open minded enough to get EVs have them already so don't feel the need to upgrade yet.

 

[Mr Bump]

According to the article, even Tesla admit a downturn in sales...

"While GM's about-face was somewhat of a surprise to investors, the Detroit car company is not alone in this new view of the EV future. Even Tesla's Elon Musk warned on a recent earnings call that economic concerns would lead to waning vehicle demand, even for the long-time EV market leader."

I wouldn't consider anything other than a Tesla, IF I was looking to buy an EV, as I think they are the only ones who have any idea what they are doing, everyone else is just bandwagon-jumping and hoping for the best.

you just love the smell of your own voice

 

[ShinySideUp]

I'll try to keep the debate civil:

Electric and hybrid cars sales stats​

Demand for plug-in electric passenger cars has grown significantly in recent years. In 2014, just 2.2% of all new passenger cars were electric. This figure has grown to 16.6% in 2022 and sales of new electric cars will increase as the UK approaches the extended 2035 ban on new petrol and diesel car sales.

They've already put it back once...

Plug-in hybrid and self-charging hybrid cars had a respective 2022 market share of 6.3% and 11.6% in the UK. These cars are currently popular with drivers who want an electrified car with low tailpipe emissions but do not want the range constraints of a pure battery-electric vehicle.

Mild hybrid electric petrol cars accounted for 13.6% market share in 2022 while mild hybrid diesel cars made up 4.5% of the market. As a result, UK average new car CO2 fell 6.9% to 111.4g/km - the lowest in history.

The sale of new self-charging hybrid cars will end in 2030, as part of the UK Government's step towards net-zero. The sale of some new plug-in hybrid cars, however, will be allowed to continue until 2035.

...so this probably won't happen either.

These dates are provided arbitrarily, they are aspirations seemingly set in stone, but in reality they are set in sand, which will constantly shift depending on where the votes are. If a government thinks its policies are going to lose it an election, they will change them and so will go the way of the ICE ban. No one is going to ban these things outright unless every other country does it at the same time as it would seriously hamper the banning country's economy in comparison. I don't see the States, China or India banning ICEs and without them doing anything it's just pie in the sky to think anything will change if we do it here.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a world where pollution was a thing of the past, where taking a breath is a clean thing to do, where there is no litter, no raw sewage, no oceans of plastic, no war, population under control, the rain forests were protected, but I'm a realist, a depressing and depressed realist. When you can't even get a person to put litter in a bin just metres away, trying to change the world by banning ICEs is tilting at a windmill.

(Source: SMMT, DfT)

 

[Mr Bump]

@ShinySideUp its not about keeping it civil

all you have done since starting this thread is flog your own agenda
you drive a dirty diesel you live in the boonies with a generator in your shed
you have shown no interest in the real world in towns and cites yap yap again and again and again round and round

most of the world is choosing a better different way i suspect you should just retire to your potting shed and let it pass you by,

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

most of the world is choosing a better different way i suspect you should just retire to your potting shed and let it pass you by,

So far as I can see, that's just not so.

The world's biggest economies (China, and the USA) are pretty much ignoring the climate change mania. Africa and India have done little or nothing on the subject. South East Asia doesn't seem interested, either. I think that the facts show that most people have seen through the climate change hyperbole and found more useful things to do with their time, money and other resources.

 

[ShinySideUp]

@ShinySideUp its not about keeping it civil

all you have done since starting this thread is flog your own agenda
you drive a dirty diesel you live in the boonies with a generator in your shed
you have shown no interest in the real world in towns and cites yap yap again and again and again round and round

most of the world is choosing a better different way i suspect you should just retire to your potting shed and let it pass you by,

You really just want to have a personal go at me, don't you?! I refuse to rise to the bait as I have no interest in getting banned. Consider yourself ignored.

 

[vintageman]

@ShinySideUp its not about keeping it civil

all you have done since starting this thread is flog your own agenda
you drive a dirty diesel you live in the boonies with a generator in your shed
you have shown no interest in the real world in towns and cites yap yap again and again and again round and round

most of the world is choosing a better different way i suspect you should just retire to your potting shed and let it pass you by,

I presume you eat food to stay alive.
It doesn't grow in the towns and cities, actually the real world is the countryside that feeds you.
How do you think the potatoes get from the fields to the supermarket?
The answer is they're hauled by big diesel tractors pulling 18tons at a time. No chance of anything powered by electricity doing that.

 

[Pound Coin]

I presume you eat food to stay alive.
It doesn't grow in the towns and cities, actually the real world is the countryside that feeds you.
How do you think the potatoes get from the fields to the supermarket?
The answer is they're hauled by big diesel tractors pulling 18tons at a time. No chance of anything powered by electricity doing that.

That's an interesting example. I'm not sure most people realise how dependent our civilisation is on fossil fuels.

Big changes needed. Fast.