Why are people buying electric cars?

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Steep said:
Octopus announced yesterday a partnership with CATL to run a battery swap business for Trucks in the UK, along with new home batteries.

Trucks From 3:40
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuwknNKpe0U
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I remember talking about and advocating battery swapping on here about a year ago, I think Toni has as well if memory serves. Essentially promoting the same things as in this video. Quite a few people on here were very critical of it, but I still believe it to be viable.
 
gman said:
I remember talking about and advocating battery swapping on here about a year ago, I think Toni has as well if memory serves. Essentially promoting the same things as in this video. Quite a few people on here were very critical of it, but I still believe it to be viable.
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People struggled to get past the idea of owning the battery, plus it requires infrastructure and planning on a national scale. I could see battery swap stations operating as franchises, with work and QC testing of batteries to a recognised standard. Lots of opportunity for dodgy dealings, but OTOH no worse than petrol stations.
 
Not surprising given the draconian restrictions on making petrol engined cars. Second hand prices for nice, low mileage ice cars is very strong as a result.
 
Tigger.ufo said:
I wonder how many people who would have bought a new ICE have gone for a second hand one as new was not available?
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That was true for me earlier this year - I wanted a small-medium SUV with diesel engine and manual gearbox. I couldn't find anything suitable with a manual box, and could only find petrol, hybrid or EV new (and the petrol models were at end of life). Bought 3 year old diesel in the end.
 
Clive K said:
Not surprising given the draconian restrictions on making petrol engined cars. Second hand prices for nice, low mileage ice cars is very strong as a result.
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There has never been a valid argument for replacing the system of compact tanks filled with easily replaced liquid fuel.

Of course, the corrupt politicians and greedy businessmen claim that enormous batteries, which can only be replaced (if they can) with special tools and training, are just "so much better".

To misquote a lady brighter than any politician: "they would say that, wouldn't they?"
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
There has never been a valid argument for replacing the system of compact tanks filled with easily replaced liquid fuel.

Of course, the corrupt politicians and greedy businessmen claim that enormous batteries, which can only be replaced (if they can) with special tools and training, are just "so much better".

To misquote a lady brighter than any politician: "they would say that, wouldn't they?"
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Errr, the fact that fuel will run out at some point??
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Not if we start producing artificial fuels such as these products...

www.fu3l.co

FU3L Advanced Biofuels | Sustainable Fuels

www.fu3l.co www.fu3l.co
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Maybe - but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with electric. All homes have it so lots can charge at home easily. Those where that is not possible could use street or charging stations (like a petrol station). Electric can be produced via green methods like wind or solar. There is less servicing needed, great performance and as tech progresses we will be in a position where you can go from 20% to 80% in 5 mins or so
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Not if we start producing artificial fuels such as these products...

www.fu3l.co

FU3L Advanced Biofuels | Sustainable Fuels

www.fu3l.co www.fu3l.co
Click to expand...

Food Crisis + Financial Crisis A Bad Combination! | World Hunger Crisis ...
 
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cambsno said:
Maybe - but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with electric. All homes have it so lots can charge at home easily.
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Thus creating a two tier travel economy - as we already have. Those with off road parking get cheap fuel and those without pay a great deal more.

Good tory thinking: "I'm all right, Cuthbert and let's pull up the ladder"!
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Thus creating a two tier travel economy - as we already have.

Good tory thinking: "I'm all right, Cuthbert and let's pull up the ladder"!
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Actually, that's what happens with private transport. Getting around for everyone else becomes harder.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Thus creating a two tier travel economy - as we already have. Those with off road parking get cheap fuel and those without pay a great deal more.

Good tory thinking: "I'm all right, Cuthbert and let's pull up the ladder"!
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And the oldies get free bus travel - a 3 tier system?
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Thus creating a two tier travel economy - as we already have. Those with off road parking get cheap fuel and those without pay a great deal more.

Good tory thinking: "I'm all right, Cuthbert and let's pull up the ladder"!
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Young and old people get heavily subsidised public transport - those living in very rural areas NEED a car, whereas those in cities dont. There are many elements of unfairness (not least in car tax, some pay hundreds, some pay far less).

I would have thought that the pricing structure will change - for example if we all went EV overnight and had the infrastructure in (like charging ports on lampposts etc) there would be a price per KW which is pretty standard across the country, and
 
Charge arms are a potential solution for those living in terraced houses without driveways as there is no trip hazard, although they are a bit ugly looking.

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They could probably be somewhat suitable for blocks of flats because whilst you couldn't cater for every resident, you can't cater for all of their parking anyway - so it would be able to cater for all of the available parking. Residents would use a unique ID so that they get charged accordingly for the usage.

I still believe that the real solution will be when fuel bunkers can be replaced with massive batteries that are charged overnight and then EV's on the forecourt charge directly from these large batteries during the day.
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
Thus creating a two tier travel economy - as we already have. Those with off road parking get cheap fuel and those without pay a great deal more.

Good tory thinking: "I'm all right, Cuthbert and let's pull up the ladder"!
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Probably had this conversation when the car replaced the horse... why would anyone want a form of transport which means you have to travel somewhere to put in a flammable liquid you have to pay for, the horse eats grass for free???
 
cambsno said:
Probably had this conversation when the car replaced the horse... why would anyone want a form of transport which means you have to travel somewhere to put in a flammable liquid you have to pay for, the horse eats grass for free???
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Cars could travel faster and further than a horse, which isn't really a strong argument that EV's currently have.

But interestingly, I believe the main problem with horses is actually similar with regard to the push for transitioning to EV's; the environmental one. From what I've read, the growing and huge numbers of horses, especially in cities, was causing massive waste, sanitary, health and environmental problems. Furthermore, I believe gasoline was a useless byproduct from the making of kerosene for lamps.

Ironically, around the 1900's EV's actually outsold ICE vehicles. But the electric starter (which eliminated the hand crank), mass production by Ford and the discovery of abundant crude oil changed things. Due to the willingness of some to massively invest and get lithium ion batteries to scale, EV's aren't really a new challenger, but more a case of making what could really be considered an epic comeback.
 
cambsno said:
Probably had this conversation when the car replaced the horse...
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I doubt it.

Horses were very expensive commodities and therefor relatively rare.
 
cambsno said:
Probably had this conversation when the car replaced the horse... why would anyone want a form of transport which means you have to travel somewhere to put in a flammable liquid you have to pay for, the horse eats grass for free???
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You can leave a car in the garage for a few weeks whereas the horse needs daily feed, exercise.......... whether you use it or not.
 
Clive K said:
You can leave a car in the garage for a few weeks whereas the horse needs daily feed, exercise.......... whether you use it or not.
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Leave the second biggest expense in life in a garage, unused...? :p
 
Electric everything is the future, the sun can provide 1000s of times what the world needs, just needs infrastructure.
The Chinese are smashing it out the park.

China is the undisputed global leader in solar power, having surpassed 1,000 GW of operational capacity. The country adds more solar capacity annually than the rest of the world combined. However, the industry is now shifting from rapid expansion to market-driven consolidation, grid integration, and large-scale desert mega-projects.
 
Mr Bump said:
Electric everything is the future, the sun can provide 1000s of times what the world needs, just needs infrastructure.
The Chinese are smashing it out the park.

China is the undisputed global leader in solar power, having surpassed 1,000 GW of operational capacity. The country adds more solar capacity annually than the rest of the world combined. However, the industry is now shifting from rapid expansion to market-driven consolidation, grid integration, and large-scale desert mega-projects.
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I wouldn't hold China up as some environmental leader. They have massive levels of pollution and corruption. The CCP don't just mess up their own country- they are doing it across the entire 3rd World.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
There has never been a valid argument for replacing the system of compact tanks filled with easily replaced liquid fuel.
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For some it makes a lot of sense given the stats that point to the average daily distance driven by vehicles is 30 miles and that on average vehicles sit stationary for 16+ hrs a day. So 90% of vehicles sit within the bell curve of being more suited to the refuelling mechanism that EVs provide. Even with Transmission and Distribution losses the end to end efficiency of EVs is superior to liquid fuel combustion. Fewer moving parts to fail
 
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jamesev said:
For some it makes a lot of sense
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My problem is not with the technology but with the bribes given to the wealthier in the form of discounts and the ability to avoid paying taxes imposed on those who cannot afford to buy or if they can, to charge at home.

Mr Perceptive said:
I look forward to being able to refuel my digital camera with a liquid fuel rather than recharging the battery via electricity
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The problem with using the reductio ad absurdum incorrectly, is that it reveals the absurdity of the user's opinion.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
My problem is not with the technology but with the bribes given to the wealthier in the form of discounts and the ability to avoid paying taxes imposed on those who cannot afford to buy or if they can, to charge at home.
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I believe the government incentives are pretty much done now. There are incentives to buy European made vehicles, but that's slightly different. Also EVs are no more expensive than IC cars now.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Also EVs are no more expensive than IC cars now.
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While probably true, the question about the cost of charging and fuel duty remains.

According to the numbers I can find, something like 94% of all cars are still petrol or diesel in Britain and the owners of those cars are still paying 52.95p per litre plus 20% VAT. Why are the owners and operators of electric cars not required to pay an equivalent rate of tax if they "refuel" their vehicles at home?
 
ancient_mariner said:
I'm sure it will come.
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Possibly.

However, until it does, we have yet another "rich man's charter" with the rest of us forced to subsidise those with more wealth than the rest of us.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
While probably true, the question about the cost of charging and fuel duty remains.

According to the numbers I can find, something like 94% of all cars are still petrol or diesel in Britain and the owners of those cars are still paying 52.95p per litre plus 20% VAT. Why are the owners and operators of electric cars not required to pay an equivalent rate of tax if they "refuel" their vehicles at home?
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because VAT on electricity is 5%. Thats how the government doesn't mandate people buy electric vehicles but incentivises them to switch. Its up to the individual to evaluate whether the cost over the life of the vehicle that for EVs is in the region of 7 years as warranties on the drive train are about that long and also if during that time they might be de-risking themselves from volatile fuel prices.

AndrewFlannigan said:
Possibly.

However, until it does, we have yet another "rich man's charter" with the rest of us forced to subsidise those with more wealth than the rest of us.
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Why not, the "rich man" pays 45-50% tax on earning compared to the 20% for others under the banner of "fair share"
 
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AndrewFlannigan said:
Possibly.

However, until it does, we have yet another "rich man's charter" with the rest of us forced to subsidise those with more wealth than the rest of us.
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It's not a rich man's charter any more: while that was true 5 and 10 years ago, EVs are as affordable as anything else except an old vehicle now.
 
Erty said:
I wouldn't hold China up as some environmental leader. They have massive levels of pollution and corruption. The CCP don't just mess up their own country- they are doing it across the entire 3rd World.
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I don't think anyone is thinking in that way but China are simply realising the future is not oil and moving faster than the whole world combined to greener energy
The rest of the west is fixated on fossil still, bear in mind China is a massive oil importer so things like Iran have also hit them quite hard. In 10 years time China will win the energy security race while the rest of the world fights over the middle east and its oil.
 
in a few years time only fools will buy a new ICE/Hybrid car for a daily use vehicle, ICE will be much more expensive.
 
jamesev said:
because VAT on electricity is 5%.
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That is to ignore my point: why would you expect 94% of the population to pay more to travel than the other 6%?
jamesev said:
Why not, the "rich man" pays 45-50% tax on earning compared to the 20% for others under the banner of "fair share"
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That's an irrelevance, in my opinion. I think it's not far off the bandit's plea: "I killed that little girl by accident so I can't be guilty of murder. It was her father I was shooting at".
 
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