Why are people buying electric cars?

[ancient_mariner]

Why would you doubt the 500 miles figure? There are already cars that exceed that and range estimates have been very accurate throughout the 15 years that EV have been evolving and there's no reason why that would change.

Possibly because almost every real-world evaluation seems to reduce the actual possible mileage between 15% and 40% depending on weather and driving conditions. Anyone doing serious mileage isn't going to drive at 45mph or whatever best economy requires, it's what we would expect with any car, and the EV is no exception, although they do seem especially poor at motorway speeds.

FWIW I noticed there's a Merc with a second gear for the motors, and that combined with a slippery shape does make it better on the motorway.

 

[Clive K]

That is the point. Manufacturer's claims are constantly being undermined by other independent sources including many based on user's own experiences. And company car owners aren't gambling with their own money.

 

[hunnymonster]

102k miles up in my modest BEV. Does almost all that I ask of if - odd tactical charge on a long day out - but otherwise entirely sold on £0.02/mi and the fact that it really ticks some people off. It works for me. I love the smell of petrol - it's about the one thing I miss about having an ICE car.

Get used to it, hydrocarbons are a finite resource - the price is going to be volatile but inexorably upwards. Synthetic fuels are always going to be expensive (Take a look at SASOL's Coal-to-liquid in Apartheid South Africa - they had no oil, they had gazillions of tonnes of coal... Easy in a lab to turn it into liquid hydrocarbons right? Very much not right)

 

[Steep]

Possibly because almost every real-world evaluation seems to reduce the actual possible mileage between 15% and 40% depending on weather and driving conditions. Anyone doing serious mileage isn't going to drive at 45mph or whatever best economy requires, it's what we would expect with any car, and the EV is no exception, although they do seem especially poor at motorway speeds.

FWIW I noticed there's a Merc with a second gear for the motors, and that combined with a slippery shape does make it better on the motorway.

That is the point. Manufacturer's claims are constantly being undermined by other independent sources including many based on user's own experiences. And company car owners aren't gambling with their own money.

We were not talking about manufacturers estimates, 500 miles plus is doable now and will be commonplace in a couple of years. The mid range Citroen C5 Aircross EV has 420 miles range and costs £33k.
My own experience over 4 EVs is it's perfectly possible to get the wltp range and better if you don't drive like a dick which most people don't.
When it comes down to it, somebody who for whatever reason (genuine or not) is set against EV is not going to accept any argument in favour of them. We've seen it time and again in this thread. You quote something good about EVs and a usual suspect will drill it down until they can say it doesn't work in xyz situation so therefore all EVs are bad.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

As I've said many times, this thread is about why people are buying EVs not why they are sticking to ICE.

Surely it's inevitable that the thread will drift, especially when those in favour are such a small minority, going purely on the evidence?

 

[Pound Coin]

I think what's missing is honesty.

So far as I can see, there's nothing especially wrong with electric cars but equally, there's nothing especially wrong with chemical powered cars either. However, vast amounts of money have been put into developing electric cars and vast amounts of, for want of a better term, belief, have been poured into them. The spenders can't afford to have this technology just potter along and the believers can't deal with the reality that their dream may prove flawed because chemical powered cars are preferred by many more people for sensible reasons.

On top of all this, substantial numbers of politicians have climbed on the electric bandwagon, only to find that that it ran out of power while the chemical cars kept going. What does a politician do when they find out they backed the wrong horse? Too many of them just ignore the mistake and keep on pounding the podium. C'est la vie...

OK, let’s be honest. There’s a fundamental difference between electric and chemical. It might not affect someone 65 or older, but it affects everyone else.

It comes in two parts:

1) fossil fuels are finite
2) using fossil fuels messes up the environment, even if one thinks it doesn’t.

 

[Clive K]

I have been looking at evs for a while. I can honestly say that in the dozens of listings of nearly new cars up to 3 years old, mainly Enyaq, id.4 & Q4; Where there was a photo of current battery capacity and estimated distance available not one matched or exceeded the manufacturer's claims when the calculations were done. Many were over 20% less than the claimed distance per % of battery capacity. Same with Toyota, Renault and other options that I looked at.

An that is reflected in tests on car review sites like Honest John & Autocar.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

I have been looking at evs for a while. I can honestly say that in the dozens of listings of nearly new cars up to 3 years old, mainly Enyaq, id.4 & Q4; Where there was a photo of current battery capacity and estimated distance available not one matched or exceeded the manufacturer's claims when the calculations were done. Many were over 20% less than the claimed distance per % of battery capacity. Same with Toyota, Renault and other options that I looked at.

An that is reflected in tests on car review sites like Honest John & Autocar.

In my car there are two range settings WLTP and Dynamic (WLTP is theh European Standard Calculation, and IMO woefully inaccurate, but its what the manufacturers use to determine a standard for vehicle range - something to put in the brochure). Dynamic is based on how the car was last driven (I don't know ihow this is calculated, but it must be over several recent journeys or a certain amount of charge).

On the motorway (at 70mph type speeds) the range is hammered (as is rapid acceleration), but gentle driving especially cross country B-roads 30-50mph can see the WLTP range exceeded

My car is nominally 295 miles on the WLTP - 65kW

I have found the range to be as follows

Winter Motorway = 210-220 miles
Summer Motoway = 240-250 miles
Winter Gentle Driving = 230-250 miles
Summer Gentle Driving = 280+ miles though on some trips I have exceeded 5miles/kw which is 325+miles

My dynamic range in the car when charged to 100% has varied between 220 milkes and 307!!! (307 exceeds WLTP range, but its just a number and depending on the next batch of driving can be woefully inaccurate)

A lot depends on the way the car is driven (just as with an ICE car) and how much ancillary stuff is on, heater/aircon/wipers/lights/etc. Also the battery needs to reach an operating temperature, so the miles/kw can take a hammering initially in winter and then improves as the car warms up. We have found this on long winter journeys and it takes more power to heat the car than it does to cool it down.

Its really no different to ICE in the fact that how it is driven can alter the mpg, but it definitely requires more planning for longer journeys.

Initially in ownership there is definitely range anxiety, and I always making sure that I had plenty of charge, but now I'm much more relaxed about it, and will make journeys where the destination estimate is in single figues (though this is rare), as only a significant diversion would cause an issue, as delays on motorways etc actually play into the EVs range hands! Incidently the destination range calculation I normally better, we left Scotland last weekend wiith 99% charge and showing a destination range of 9%, we detoured off route 4 times to visit places we wanted to (food/specific shops), adding about 15 miles to the journey and got home with 13% showing (no on-route charging and plenty of motorway speeds)

 

[Pound Coin]

I have been looking at evs for a while. I can honestly say that in the dozens of listings of nearly new cars up to 3 years old, mainly Enyaq, id.4 & Q4; Where there was a photo of current battery capacity and estimated distance available not one matched or exceeded the manufacturer's claims when the calculations were done. Many were over 20% less than the claimed distance per % of battery capacity. Same with Toyota, Renault and other options that I looked at.

An that is reflected in tests on car review sites like Honest John & Autocar.

Isn't this what car manufacturers have been doing for decades, overstating the mpg figure through tweaked tests?

 

[Steep]

In my car there are two range settings WLTP and Dynamic (WLTP is theh European Standard Calculation, and IMO woefully inaccurate, but its what the manufacturers use to determine a standard for vehicle range - something to put in the brochure). Dynamic is based on how the car was last driven (I don't know ihow this is calculated, but it must be over several recent journeys or a certain amount of charge).

On the motorway (at 70mph type speeds) the range is hammered (as is rapid acceleration), but gentle driving especially cross country B-roads 30-50mph can see the WLTP range exceeded

My car is nominally 295 miles on the WLTP - 65kW

I have found the range to be as follows

Winter Motorway = 210-220 miles
Summer Motoway = 240-250 miles
Winter Gentle Driving = 230-250 miles
Summer Gentle Driving = 280+ miles though on some trips I have exceeded 5miles/kw which is 325+miles

My dynamic range in the car when charged to 100% has varied between 220 milkes and 307!!! (307 exceeds WLTP range, but its just a number and depending on the next batch of driving can be woefully inaccurate)

A lot depends on the way the car is driven (just as with an ICE car) and how much ancillary stuff is on, heater/aircon/wipers/lights/etc. Also the battery needs to reach an operating temperature, so the miles/kw can take a hammering initially in winter and then improves as the car warms up. We have found this on long winter journeys and it takes more power to heat the car than it does to cool it down.

Its really no different to ICE in the fact that how it is driven can alter the mpg, but it definitely requires more planning for longer journeys.

Initially in owneship there is definitely range anxiety, and I always making sure that I had plenty of charge, but now I'm much more relaxed about it, and will make journeys where the destination estimate is in single figues (though this is rare), as only a significant diversion would cause an issue, as delays on motorways etc actually play into the EVs range hands! Incidently the destination range calculation I normally better, we left Scotland last weekend wiith 99% charge and showing a destination range of 9%, we detoured off route 4 times to visit places we wanted to (food/specific shops), adding about 15 miles to the journey and got home with 13% showing (no on-route charging and plenty of motorway speeds)

Your dynamic range is shown on the gom (guess'o'meter) and starts out reflecting the wltp. Over time it gives a more and more accurate reading as it learns your driving style. If you do a lot of fast motorway driving or drive in a mountainous area it will be lower. If you drive mostly around town it will be higher.

 

[Steep]

I have been looking at evs for a while. I can honestly say that in the dozens of listings of nearly new cars up to 3 years old, mainly Enyaq, id.4 & Q4; Where there was a photo of current battery capacity and estimated distance available not one matched or exceeded the manufacturer's claims when the calculations were done. Many were over 20% less than the claimed distance per % of battery capacity. Same with Toyota, Renault and other options that I looked at.

An that is reflected in tests on car review sites like Honest John & Autocar.

The estimated range shown on the gom is a reflection of individual driving style and conditions, not the car's ability to get places in general.

 

[Clive K]

The estimated range shown on the gom is a reflection of individual driving style and conditions, not the car's ability to get places in general.

That's the problem for me. I know that the old bus is good for 500+ miles no matter what the load, speeds and weather are involved. And that won't have changed in the 16 years of its life.

I can see how an ev would benefit those who buy new or nearly new and keep them less than 3 or 4 years, but that isn't me.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

That's the problem for me. I know that the old bus is good for 500+ miles no matter what the load, speeds and weather are involved. And that won't have changed in the 16 years of its life.

I can see how an ev would benefit those who buy new or nearly new and keep them less than 3 or 4 years, but that isn't me.

I've bought mine with a view of keeping it for at least 8-10 years, and because of that I've been careful on how I charge the battery.

In the real world I've really not found the range limitation to be a problem, but I accept that is not for all, but my last couple of cars had 500 mile+, but going back 30 years, my range now is similar to what I had then, its just a small mindset reset!

The biggest difference for me has been the day out factor, I now no longer put the fuel costs into a day out, where previously a 200 mile (100 each way) day out would cost about £30 in fuel, now it costs a fiver. For instance attending the TP F&C meetup at Avoncroft next weekend before would have cost me about £70 inc fuel, entrance fee and lunch/coffee, it will now cost half that. Before I would have hesitated because of the cost, now I'll just go!

 

[Clive K]

To be honest we are at that time of life where if we don't spend it the government will take it from us when we go into a care home. I don't give a thought to how much fuel costs to go fishing or out with the camera.

 

[cambsno]

I have been looking at evs for a while. I can honestly say that in the dozens of listings of nearly new cars up to 3 years old, mainly Enyaq, id.4 & Q4; Where there was a photo of current battery capacity and estimated distance available not one matched or exceeded the manufacturer's claims when the calculations were done. Many were over 20% less than the claimed distance per % of battery capacity. Same with Toyota, Renault and other options that I looked at.

An that is reflected in tests on car review sites like Honest John & Autocar.

And has anyone ever got the MPG you see in a car showroom???

It really depends on the driving, its almost the reverse of ICE - motorway less good, in town much better. Plus I do drive with rather a heavy right foot!

 

[Steep]

I can see how an ev would benefit those who buy new or nearly new and keep them less than 3 or 4 years, but that isn't me.

You keep adding these caveats, keeping an EV is a far better option than selling after a few years. Servicing and running costs are far lower and get lower the longer you have it.

 

[Clive K]

And, as I understand it, the battery reduces in output over time. So, if you could just about cope with the real range when new, you might have to make consessions a few years down the line. And please don't tell me that today's batteries don't do that because we have to wait for those years to pass to be sure. By which time there will be newer innovations. All this movement on technology knocks back the resale values of older vehicles. When I looked at the difference in VAG cars between the 'old' 77 and newer 82 rated batteries in the same year models those who unwittingly bought early cars have taken a real hit.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

And, as I understand it, the battery reduces in output over time.

This is true but so do ICE cars, I don't expect that your vehicle has all the ponies under the bonnet that it did when it left the factiory.

From most reports battery degradation seems to be more severe in early years then tails off, that said it depends on how it was charged, lots of fast charging more degradation (just like your phone), slower charger = better.

 

[cambsno]

And, as I understand it, the battery reduces in output over time. So, if you could just about cope with the real range when new, you might have to make consessions a few years down the line. And please don't tell me that today's batteries don't do that because we have to wait for those years to pass to be sure. By which time there will be newer innovations. All this movement on technology knocks back the resale values of older vehicles. When I looked at the difference in VAG cars between the 'old' 77 and newer 82 rated batteries in the same year models those who unwittingly bought early cars have taken a real hit.

There has been a lot of studies done which show the degredation is not that bad. And your petrol car will also be the same - less HP as it ages and less mpg.

A mate has a 2nd hand car garage and has Tesla Model 3 for 15k or a bit less. IMO thats a great buy, supercar performance, great tech and in the 3 years i have had mine, just got 4 tyres (2 with wear, 1 with a screw so replaced the other too). No servicing or anything else (oh, £25 for cabin filters).

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

For instance attending the TP F&C meetup at Avoncroft next weekend before would have cost me about £70 inc fuel, entrance fee and lunch/coffee, it will now cost half that. Before I would have hesitated because of the cost, now I'll just go!

However, if and when the government decide that it's time you paid the same tax as everyone else, I suspect that saving will disappear. That's the point where any advantages of electric will cease to be so obvious.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

However, if and when the government decide that it's time you paid the same tax as everyone else, I suspect that saving will disappear. That's the point where any advantages of electric will cease to be so obvious.

Give it a rest (please)... you have become a stuck record in this thread...........

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Give it a rest (please)... you have become a stuck record in this thread...........

One could argue that all those who are so happy to say how wonderful electric cars are, without mentioning that such is only true because of the large bribes provided by the government (and therefor by the 95% who pay their fuel taxes) should "give it a rest".

 

[cambsno]

One could argue that all those who are so happy to say how wonderful electric cars are, without mentioning that such is only true because of the large bribes provided by the government (and therefor by the 95% who pay their fuel taxes) should "give it a rest".

This is becoming quite a boring theme... there are lots of different ways people avoid paying tax or pay a lower than the neighbour rate of tax. Yes, prices will increase for electric, but then EVs will be even cheaper due to economies of scale.

Government pay bribes to various people (triple lock if a pensioner!!)

 

[Pound Coin]

"In this world, nothing is certain except death and Andrew's obsession with EV taxes."

 

[mj4456]

In my local Kia dealer with a parts query today, only evs in the showroom and chatting to the sales dept thats pretty much all thats in stock, some ice held tucked away from forecourt and what they had were undesirable models, I asked the telling question, “pushing ev to meet targets” theirs or manufacturers they couldn’t say, but one or other I suspect is the answer is both. Asked by sales when I was buying an ev I told them “when you offer a lightweight 2 seat convertible I’ll think about it”, I should have added ‘affordable’ since the MG offering expensive and heavy. But the rest of the public will buy what’s available if that’s what’s out there .

 

[Steep]

And, as I understand it, the battery reduces in output over time. So, if you could just about cope with the real range when new, you might have to make consessions a few years down the line. And please don't tell me that today's batteries don't do that because we have to wait for those years to pass to be sure. By which time there will be newer innovations. All this movement on technology knocks back the resale values of older vehicles. When I looked at the difference in VAG cars between the 'old' 77 and newer 82 rated batteries in the same year models those who unwittingly bought early cars have taken a real hit.

Yes the battery capacity is reduced over time but it's by a very small amount (as long as you don't mistreat it). At one point 10 or 15 years ago they expected EV batteries to have a 10 year useful* life span but it's turned out to be more than 3 times that.

* Useful as in still able to go long enough distances. As an example, my first EV company car did over 100k miles before it went back, at that point it was still over 90% capacity.
There's a guy in Australia (i think) who's driven a Tesla Model 3 for over a million miles. He's gone through 3 batteries and 5 motors and probably some brake pads. Imagine what an ICE car would have needed replacing over 1 million miles driving.

 

[Steep]

In my local Kia dealer with a parts query today, only evs in the showroom and chatting to the sales dept thats pretty much all thats in stock, some ice held tucked away from forecourt and what they had were undesirable models, I asked the telling question, “pushing ev to meet targets” theirs or manufacturers they couldn’t say, but one or other I suspect is the answer is both. Asked by sales when I was buying an ev I told them “when you offer a lightweight 2 seat convertible I’ll think about it”, I should have added ‘affordable’ since the MG offering expensive and heavy. But the rest of the public will buy what’s available if that’s what’s out there .

Lightweight is relative, all EVs need a battery so what you're looking for is most likely pie in the sky.

 

[jamesev]

"In this world, nothing is certain except death and Andrew's obsession with EV taxes."

And the use of phrases like “one could argue” to dodge accountability for statement, like precious taxes

 

[MK1 Photography]

I have as I said before driven EV's since 2015. Never had range anxiety. Never been stranded . Never broken down
My latest E- Golf I have owned for 3 fantastic years of easy smooth motoring. Doesn't need service every year. Brake fluid change every two years.
Very easy to care for and live with VW did an astounding job building this car, my battery health is at 97% checked by an ex VW technician I use.

 

[jamesev]

I have as I said before driven EV's since 2015. Never had range anxiety. Never been stranded . Never broken down
My latest E- Golf I have owned for 3 fantastic years of easy smooth motoring. Doesn't need service every year. Brake fluid change every two years.
Very easy to care for and live with VW did an astounding job building this car, my battery health is at 97% checked by an ex VW technician I use.

it would be interesting to know, of all those that say that EVs don't suit them, have ever actually tried one for any reasonable amount of time. Most of those that say they are better than ICE have driven both so can give actual individual comparisons rather than generalisations from the anti-EV crew

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

And the use of phrases like “one could argue” to dodge accountability for statement, like precious taxes

If we cannot be polite to one another, then we can hardly hold a sensible conversation.

it would be interesting to know, of all those that say that EVs don't suit them, have ever actually tried one for any reasonable amount of time.

The problem being that a great many people are barred from "trying one out" because they can't charge a car at home on cheap electricity.

If and when the people selling these things offer a practical method of levelling the playing field, things will, perhaps, change. Still, any such solution will involve a great many prior changes to both infrastructure and laws. This is, perhaps, why take up seems to have stalled at 5% despite the bribery of citizens with other people's tax money.

 

[gman]

And the use of phrases like “one could argue” to dodge accountability for statement, like precious taxes

The phrase is actually used to soften what might be a strong or controversial opion and effectively presenting what might be a plausible alternative in a less confrontational manner. It could be argued that if someone is using a phrase like this then chances are that it is to keep the peace because others are possibly being a little pugnacious.

 

[Mr Bump]

it's wierd where i have my house in GC there are very few EVs generally most of the cars are ancient
most spend weeks getting burnt by the sun and not going anywhere, some don't move for months , in reality the only need fir a car would
be to go to a big super market or maybe to collect from the airport but the bus is very cheap, its only 4 euros from the airport to a stop near our
house and its like 30kms it must be sadi in GC the EV will take 100 years to be adopted

 

[ancient_mariner]

it's wierd where i have my house in GC there are very few EVs generally most of the cars are ancient
most spend weeks getting burnt by the sun and not going anywhere, some don't move for months , in reality the only need fir a car would
be to go to a big super market or maybe to collect from the airport but the bus is very cheap, its only 4 euros from the airport to a stop near our
house and its like 30kms it must be sadi in GC the EV will take 100 years to be adopted

It strikes me as very sensible - replacing perfectly good vehicles that are driven short distances and don't use much fuel or cause high levels of pollution with new ones that consume large amounts of energy and resources to manufacture would be irrational at best. I'm sure switching the island to solar would make it more economical to run any EVs , but the replacement should be gradual rather than forced.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

@Mr Bump If public transport is good and cost effective then there is less need for car ownership. We would happily reduce our car usage if this was the case

 

[srichards]

Cars take people door to door exactly when and where they want to go. No public transport does this. It's inferior as an option. Always has been. So far all governments have done is to make all transport worse. You could make all buses free but I'd still use the car as it's much better. My local area has no electric buses as far as I can tell. Just ancient Plaxton diesels spewing out fumes. A couple have been so bad I've reported them. Air quality is far more important to improve. A lot of the main bus routes have poor air quality. Local council was on about banning diesels in peak time off some roads but didn't think all the dirty old buses chugging up and down the hill might be contributing.

 

[ancient_mariner]

My local area has no electric buses as far as I can tell. Just ancient Plaxton diesels spewing out fumes. A couple have been so bad I've reported them. Air quality is far more important to improve.

This is an interesting point. On Fridays I work at home in an upstairs office. There's a couple of hundred cars a day go past that I hear but otherwise don't notice, but each lorry produces a miasma of fumes that come through the open window. IME commercial vehicles are much more polluting and problematic than cars.

 

[gman]

Certainly in my local areas the buses are not good at all. They do seem to be rolling out electric ones which is good to see, but there is still the problem of them either being too full or completely empty, often late, several all bunched up together then none for ages and of course often there are very unsavoury passengers on them.

Buses here also don't pull into the stops properly and leave their arse sticking out, preventing everyone else from getting past and ultimately causing a lot of congestion. Most people I know cite safety as the main concern with using buses. Trains aren't so bad, but the network (especially the underground) is poor.

I do wonder for city and suburbs if we would be better to have a much wider network of smaller mini bus type vehicles (EV of course) rather than a small restrictive network of large buses? I suppose additional driver costs could make it more expensive, but a wider variety of routes creating a closer door to door service might be enough to encourage more people out of cars.

 

[gman]

This is an interesting point. On Fridays I work at home in an upstairs office. There's a couple of hundred cars a day go past that I hear but otherwise don't notice, but each lorry produces a miasma of fumes that come through the open window. IME commercial vehicles are much more polluting and problematic than cars.

That's surprising because I get involved in the haulage industry a lot and most that I see have now upgraded to EURO 6 HGV's, which are pretty clean, mainly for access to LEZ's. I suppose it may depend on the location though. I do still see a lot of badly polluting buses though. Even the long haul tractor units tend to be fairly new now as leasing seems to be the way for the big players rather than buying outright, both for reliability and emissions compliance.

Vans can be the worst in my experience, even ones that are clearly EURO 6, which presumably have had their DPF removed and Ad-blue disabled because there's no way they should stink like that.

 

[ancient_mariner]

That's surprising because I get involved in the haulage industry a lot and most that I see have now upgraded to EURO 6 HGV's, which are pretty clean, mainly for access to LEZ's. I suppose it may depend on the location though. I do still see a lot of badly polluting buses though. Even the long haul tractor units tend to be fairly new now as leasing seems to be the way for the big players rather than buying outright, both for reliability and emissions compliance.

Vans can be the worst in my experience, even ones that are clearly EURO 6, which presumably have had their DPF removed and Ad-blue disabled because there's no way they should stink like that.

We have no conventional busses (there's a van-style shuttle sometimes) through the village. We do get smaller HGVs such as those carrying livestock and crops or building materials, plus the occasional lost car transporter.