Why hasn't mirroless taken over?

Simple answer to the original question
Mirrorless is not for everyone, the same as electric cars are not for everyone.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Well that's a nonsense unless you count digital chroma noise as signal.
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It's a matter of opinion if evf's are preferable to ovf's or not but a couple of things I'll now mention are not really opinions but are facts, although to give you some some wiggle room I'll say that these are facts IMO but in any case they may not matter to some people. They do matter to me so I apply significance to them :D

For example.

- evf's allow you to see detail in shadows and even in the dark which would be invisible with an unaided ovf or by eye.
- evf's allow you to see detail when using the magnified view that would be simply invisible with any unaided ovf system or by eye thus allowing you to focus very accurately, because you can see more detail and see what you're focusing on.

There are facts, advantages, disadvantages and about a ton of opinions on both sides so it's really up to each of us to make our own minds up but I do think that some of the criticisms of evf's and mirrorless are a little more hyperbole than grounded in objective comparison.
 
I bought a Canon 90D last October without checking the market. In March I sold it and bought an Olympus M5 Mk.III. Revelation. Tiny, not-heavy (serious arthritis in hands and wrists). The lenses are very small. The facilities built in are really great - I love the Pro shot (that pre-takes 15 shots from before you press the shutter - really clever). Only issue is I have to shield the viewfinder in bright sunlight as it isn't as clear as an SLR view. Surely, the 90D is the last ever DSLR!
 
woof woof said:
It's a matter of opinion if evf's are preferable to ovf's or not but a couple of things I'll now mention are not really opinions but are facts, although to give you some some wiggle room I'll say that these are facts IMO but in any case they may not matter to some people. They do matter to me so I apply significance to them :D

For example.

- evf's allow you to see detail in shadows and even in the dark which would be invisible with an unaided ovf or by eye.
- evf's allow you to see detail when using the magnified view that would be simply invisible with any unaided ovf system or by eye thus allowing you to focus very accurately, because you can see more detail and see what you're focusing on.

There are facts, advantages, disadvantages and about a ton of opinions on both sides so it's really up to each of us to make our own minds up but I do think that some of the criticisms of evf's and mirrorless are a little more hyperbole than grounded in objective comparison.
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That is not really the case in my opinion or in other words I never ever struggled with ovf in conditions requiring 30s or 2min exposure. Maybe if you shoot all f1.2 primes the evf will clearly see more than f2.8 limited ovf
 
It is only a matter of time before the last manufacturer makes its very last DSLR.
Very soon the necessary components will no longer be made and become unavailable, and supplies will stutter out.
The Writing is already on the wall. Pentax perhaps the last, will march into lonely distant oblivion.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
The Writing is already on the wall. Pentax perhaps the last, will march into lonely distant oblivion.
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In the age of film, the SLR emerged as the least bad general purpose camera and it gradually drove the alternatives into niche markets.

During the development of digital photography as a mass market product, the dSLR was heavily promoted as a status product by those companies with a background of success in SLR technology. Meanwhile, the new entrants to the photographic industry adopted fully (or mostly) electronic designs.

I find it interesting that the most successful of the established SLR manufacturers quickly started to challenge the newcomers with non SLR designs like Canon's Powershot and Nikon's Coolpix series, beginning in the 1990s...

Camera Nikon Coolpix 990 with lenses DSC01857.JPG
 
I tried mirrorless with the Fuji XPro1 plus 18, 35 and 60mm lenses back in 2012, I have to say that it was an impressive system, sure focusing was a bit slow but as I didn’t take fast moving objects that wasn’t really an issue.

Moving forward to 2022 and I don’t have my DSLR any more, I now have a Nikon Z7 plus some Z lenses, and the Fuji gear, which is still going strong, still used regularly and has had the Fuji 56 added along with some adapters for MF lenses.

If I have one gripe it is the size of the Nikon Z lenses, they are not small and in most cases as large as my old DSLR lenses, whereas the Fuji gear remains small, overtime I will probably migrate to the Fuji system simply because I am not getting any younger and a smaller lighter kit will be easier to carry.
 
I'm not sure I could live without IBIS now, and mirrorless AF accuracy blows DSLRs out of the water.

That said, there isn't really any significant image quality advantage. My D850 and D810 files still stand up to pretty much anything. Although I don't miss having to use a tripod all the damn time, calibrating lenses, focusing manually in magnified live view etc. If you don't mind all that though then DSLRs are still fine cameras. In fact, for low light event photography, I'd still probably prefer a D850 over any mirrorless camera.
 
delb0y said:
I doubt we're going to get a definitive answer, but it's an interesting discussion.

My gut feeling is that for the average Jane or Joe, smartphones are all that they need - or want - these days. In fact many of the images that (non photographer) people I know take on their phones are so good I frequently call into question why I need a small carry-round camera at all (answer - I don't like screen glare and I prefer the handling of a camera).

The next group of people are those who have a "proper" camera but who still aren't enthusiasts (i.e. don't come on sites like this). All of those that I know - my brother in law, my father in law, many tech-savvy but non-photo-savvy friends - have low end, few years old, DSLRs. They think they have all they need (and, indeed they do) and they probably haven't even ever considered mirrorless, or even know what mirrorless is. There are an awful lot of these people and their cameras will probably out last them.

Then there are folks like me, hobbyists without much money. My cameras all tend to be pretty good cameras from those available about six to ten years ago. I confess I prefer mirrorless, but my most recent camera purchase was a D700 because I wanted to finally experience full frame, and that was the only affordable way of doing so. The D700 is great, and weight aside is probably all I'll ever need, That said, I tend to use a Lumix G80 as my main camera, and though bits keep falling off it, it still keeps going. Those like me won't be buying the latest mirrorless for many years to come until today's essential kit becomes tomorrows no-longer-good-enough and thus becomes affordable; or our existing kit slowly breaks down (and most camera gear seems pretty resilient). So the full mirrorless takeover will have to wait.

Lastly, there are those who for whatever reason are early adopters - maybe professionals who need the latest and greatest - and I suspect for them the change to mirrorless has probably happened. But in overall numbers, I imagine they make up a tiny percentage of the photograph-taking population.

Derek
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I keep hearing great things about the GX80 and the GX85
 
Crotal Bell said:
I keep hearing great things about the GX80 and the GX85
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The GX9 is a better camera :D but it's more expensive. I've posted quite a few pictures taken with the GX80 particularly in the Panasonic, pictures you took today and B&W threads. The mini SLR style cameras will have better evf's though.
 
alexcarnes said:
I'm not sure I could live without IBIS now, and mirrorless AF accuracy blows DSLRs out of the water.

That said, there isn't really any significant image quality advantage. My D850 and D810 files still stand up to pretty much anything. Although I don't miss having to use a tripod all the damn time, calibrating lenses, focusing manually in magnified live view etc. If you don't mind all that though then DSLRs are still fine cameras. In fact, for low light event photography, I'd still probably prefer a D850 over any mirrorless camera.
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I'd wager a Z9 will out focus the very capable D850.

I'll wade into this thread - again

Photography is mainly an amateur pursuit. In terms of camera sales the overwhelming majority are bought by amateurs. The ratio of working pros to amateurs is a very low one.

The most popular form of amateur photography is landscape. The advantages of mirrorless in this genre relate to lightness (a common complaint amongst hobbyist photographers is mass but I will debunk that shortly) and perhaps AF frame coverage.

A comment in this thread re focusing was mentioned. You can manually focus in live view on a DSLR and enhance it on a much larger screen than an EVF. I dare say I wouldn't use the EVF and just use the rear screen on these.

Most Landscapes are shot from a tripod, the shutter speeds involved requires this. They're also a great way to aid composition and ensure the frames level. The ease of handholding isn't a big thing in this genre and it's invariably carried in an expensive rucksack.

A lot of 35mm format mirrorless bodies still use large heavy optics. Zooms are beloved of landscape photographers and they're heavy. A heavier body actually is better for tripod use as it makes it more stable as it balances better as more mass is over the tripod. Light bodies with these big complex optical formula zooms aren't a great mix. Christ even the D850 with a 24-70 2.8 isn't optimally balanced, a 645z with a 45-85 sits much better on a tripod. Heavy body, light lens is a better mix for tripod shooting than light body, heavy lens.

Sensor dirt - maybe the Z9 with the sensor gaurd solves this one but mirrorless bodies, due to the lack of the mirror covering the sensor get a lot more sensor dirt. For landscapes you stop down-dust spots are annoying and time consuming to fix properly.

Landscape photography is often done over the winter and dawn/sunrise and sunset/dusk. This means cold fingers. Big buttons widely spaced is what you want. The larger DSLR form wins here.

Some pluses in the new mirrorless bodies - inbuilt focus stacking, that's in the Z7. It'll take a series of shots focused differently for you to stack. There's no real reason this couldn't feature on a DSLR.

Newer lens mounts but for stopped down shooting it's not the big thing you think. The F8 vs F11 mft charts for the new mirrorless stuff vs older DSLR stuff isn't showing a leap on.

The people who make/build these things are moving towards mirrorless. So for the latest sensor tech and features you may wish to upgrade but there's going to be compromises and things you'll really miss on your DSLR and things you won't like on the new camera.
 
SFTPhotography said:
Some pluses in the new mirrorless bodies - inbuilt focus stacking, that's in the Z7. It'll take a series of shots focused differently for you to stack. There's no real reason this couldn't feature on a DSLR.
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Does it produce a jpeg? And does it deal with anything moving like trees or leaves? Or the close and distant object overlap with longer lens? I fear you may still need to do it all manually
 
SFTPhotography said:
Some pluses in the new mirrorless bodies - inbuilt focus stacking, that's in the Z7. It'll take a series of shots focused differently for you to stack. There's no real reason this couldn't feature on a DSLR.
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Unless I misunderstand the point you are making, there certainly is no reason why it couldn't be a feature on DSLRs, because it already is. (on your D850)

 
Crotal Bell said:
Been doing some research, pros and cons. It seems the pros outweigh the cons these days?

Nevertheless, I know many of you love/prefer DSLR. Why would you buy a Nikon D3500 when Canon M50 MkII mirroless costs just a smidge more?

There must be more to this than meets my eye, so why are DSLR holding their own and why isn't morrorless taking over? (or is it?)
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Are they?

We very rarely see DSLR's being used.

We see a lot of cameras at weddings, quite rare to see anyone other than really old guests using a DSLR. Most guests seem to have the cheapy Canon mirrorless cameras and kit lenses. Still see quite a lot of guests with micro four thirds set up's as well.

Haven't seen a videographers at weddings using DSLR's in years either, most seem to use full frame mirrorless or micro four thirds.

Now and again we will run into other wedding photographers while we are out working, just as an example there was 3 other weddings including ours happening at the venue we were at yesterday. We seen all 3 of the other photographers at one point or another during the day, they were all using mirrorless as well. Cant remember the last time we seen another wedding photographer using DSLR's.

Maybe weddings aren't the biggest sample pool.

Went to a day at the races on Friday, lots of sports photographers around, too many to count, only one seemed to be using a DSLR.
 
I was at a country show yesterday and saw one mirrorless camera (a Fuji), five DSLRs besides my own (all Canon bar one Nikon), two or three bridge cameras, a couple of compacts, and lots and lots of phones.
 
Very interesting thread :)
as people have already said it just depends on what you are interested in photographing as Steve said a couple of posts ago there’s no reason to switch to mirrorless if you do landscape photography but for shooting anything moving the autofocus system with mirrorless cameras is better than DSLR.
I used my DSLR for years shooting wildlife etc but the mirrorless camera made it much easier especially as I’m not as quick as I used to be :)
I’m not familiar with the other makes but certainly Canon is moving over to mirrorless all their new bodies in the future will be mirrorless.
it’s all good because peoples existing EF lenses work perfectly with the adapter and I’m sure that Nikon is the same :)
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Does it produce a jpeg? And does it deal with anything moving like trees or leaves? Or the close and distant object overlap with longer lens? I fear you may still need to do it all manually
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No - you can preset the number of RAWs taken in the series and the focal distance between each one. Push the shutter and it takes the series. You still do it manually
myotis said:
Unless I misunderstand the point you are making, there certainly is no reason why it couldn't be a feature on DSLRs, because it already is. (on your D850)

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Every day is a school day and even less of a reason to not run the D850/645z combo long term.
 
f/2.8 said:
Are they?

We very rarely see DSLR's being used.

We see a lot of cameras at weddings, quite rare to see anyone other than really old guests using a DSLR. Most guests seem to have the cheapy Canon mirrorless cameras and kit lenses. Still see quite a lot of guests with micro four thirds set up's as well.

Haven't seen a videographers at weddings using DSLR's in years either, most seem to use full frame mirrorless or micro four thirds.

Now and again we will run into other wedding photographers while we are out working, just as an example there was 3 other weddings including ours happening at the venue we were at yesterday. We seen all 3 of the other photographers at one point or another during the day, they were all using mirrorless as well. Cant remember the last time we seen another wedding photographer using DSLR's.

Maybe weddings aren't the biggest sample pool.

Went to a day at the races on Friday, lots of sports photographers around, too many to count, only one seemed to be using a DSLR.
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Pro wedding/sports shooters make up a tiny tiny market of the camera market.

Up in landscape photography land, here and abroad the 5d4's/D850's are still out on tripods. You still see them, everywhere.
 
I think that the last few postings indicate that none of us see an objective picture of complex situations.

One person notices lots of dSLRs in use, another does not. This is why discussions such as this don't move our understanding forward. Only accurate numbers showing how many of each type has been sold over several years can answer the original question.
 
Ed Sutton said:
I was at a country show yesterday and saw one mirrorless camera (a Fuji), five DSLRs besides my own (all Canon bar one Nikon), two or three bridge cameras, a couple of compacts, and lots and lots of phones.
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It's the same here. If I see anyone with a camera it's usually an entry level Canikon and kit lens but unlike you bridge cameras seem rare and I can't remember the last time I saw anyone with a compact.
 
f/2.8 said:
Are they?

We very rarely see DSLR's being used.

We see a lot of cameras at weddings, quite rare to see anyone other than really old guests using a DSLR. Most guests seem to have the cheapy Canon mirrorless cameras and kit lenses. Still see quite a lot of guests with micro four thirds set up's as well.

Haven't seen a videographers at weddings using DSLR's in years either, most seem to use full frame mirrorless or micro four thirds.

Now and again we will run into other wedding photographers while we are out working, just as an example there was 3 other weddings including ours happening at the venue we were at yesterday. We seen all 3 of the other photographers at one point or another during the day, they were all using mirrorless as well. Cant remember the last time we seen another wedding photographer using DSLR's.

Maybe weddings aren't the biggest sample pool.

Went to a day at the races on Friday, lots of sports photographers around, too many to count, only one seemed to be using a DSLR.
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Ed Sutton said:
I was at a country show yesterday and saw one mirrorless camera (a Fuji), five DSLRs besides my own (all Canon bar one Nikon), two or three bridge cameras, a couple of compacts, and lots and lots of phones.
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In these situations it’s like comparing apples and pears. Professional wedding photographers are likely seeing a business case for upgrading to mirrorless due to the improvement of eye AF making their job easier. Amateur photography enthusiasts likely see less benefit of changing their DSLR to mirrorless cameras until their camera needs changing. This is likely quite true of people who own a DSLR but aren’t an enthusiast who’d visit a forum like this.

Spotting Sony or Fuji mirrorless is probably quite easy. Spotting a mirrorless canon camera and RF lens in use at a large event is probably quite difficult unless you get next to them and read the model number.
 
Plain Nev said:
At the moment I think lack of battery power has held mirrorless back. Crack that and it will really take off.
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I have purchased a Sony A6600 which has an increased size battery which last more than a whole day. My Canon 7Dii DSLR battery lasts for a day, however if I turn on GPS tagging the battery life nose dives !
My friend of mine has the Canon R5 and his battery lasts for over a day as well.
 
f/2.8 said:
Are they?

We very rarely see DSLR's being used.

We see a lot of cameras at weddings, quite rare to see anyone other than really old guests using a DSLR. Most guests seem to have the cheapy Canon mirrorless cameras and kit lenses. Still see quite a lot of guests with micro four thirds set up's as well.

Haven't seen a videographers at weddings using DSLR's in years either, most seem to use full frame mirrorless or micro four thirds.

Now and again we will run into other wedding photographers while we are out working, just as an example there was 3 other weddings including ours happening at the venue we were at yesterday. We seen all 3 of the other photographers at one point or another during the day, they were all using mirrorless as well. Cant remember the last time we seen another wedding photographer using DSLR's.

Maybe weddings aren't the biggest sample pool.

Went to a day at the races on Friday, lots of sports photographers around, too many to count, only one seemed to be using a DSLR.
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Maybe they just have more £££££ to spare and see more advertorials on youtube. Nothing strange about that all.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Maybe they just have more £££££ to spare and see more advertorials on youtube. Nothing strange about that all.
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You think that wedding guests have more £££££ to spend on camera equipment and see more adverts on YouTube? Why, that seems odd?
 
f/2.8 said:
You think that wedding guests have more £££££ to spend on camera equipment and see more adverts on YouTube? Why, that seems odd?
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my comment wasnt about guests. But I guess they are not using z9s and a1s and a7rivs with 50/1.2s...
 
woof woof said:
It's the same here. If I see anyone with a camera it's usually an entry level Canikon and kit lens but unlike you bridge cameras seem rare and I can't remember the last time I saw anyone with a compact.
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Out and about I see mainly small ish DSLR's with kit lenses and when I go to organised shoots it is mainly new mirrorless, Sony, Canon are common with Fuji and Nikon in some low numbers all with pretty top end lenses, certainly no kit lenses !
 
LongLensPhotography said:
my comment wasnt about guests. But I guess they are not using z9s and a1s and a7rivs with 50/1.2s...
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Sorry you have me confused the first point I made was:

"We see a lot of cameras at weddings, quite rare to see anyone other than really old guests using a DSLR. Most guests seem to have the cheapy Canon mirrorless cameras and kit lenses. Still see quite a lot of guests with micro four thirds set up's as well."

At our wedding before last the brides uncle had an A1, with a 35GM, 50GM and 85GM.

At yesterdays wedding the bride had an A7III, 35GM, 50GM, 85GM and all of the Tamron full frame e-mount zoom lenses. To be fair she does portrait photography on a part time basis.

But yeah as I have already said the cameras we see most used by wedding guests are cheap Canon mirrorless and micro four thirds.
 
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Flickr provides some data on the cameras used for photos uploaded https://www.flickr.com/cameras

Probably not a perfect representative sample, but arguably not bad, of actual camera usage and the development of the usage of different types of cameras. The data gives us some insight into the progress of mirrorless vs dslr when looking at the brands that have both:
- in the canon chart R5 usage is growing consistently every month in the past year and is now, just, the second most popular behind Canon 5DM4. Looking at the trend, R5 will take the top spot before the end of this year for images and as a model is the 2nd most popular canon model among flickr users.
- in the nikon chart, images from mirrorless models do not yet feature in the top 5 nikon cameras used chart. The data table show Z6 has just taken the 5th most popular nikon camera spot by flickr users.
For sony and fuji, the relative usage appears stable over the past year. Overall cameraphone images are the most popular.

@AndrewFlannigan - this is a bit better than looking only at sales, no? sales will be a leading indicator of future usage, this flickr data shows a more comprehensive view of trends in usage.
 
The SlR had a long reign. It first appeared on large format plate cameras and was favoured by the press.
It then moved to medium format, where for a long time it met it's match in the twin lens reflex.
However it was with 35 mm that it dominated,

One of my earliest cameras was a Thornton Pickard 1/4 plate Ruby Reflex with a Ross Xpres lens.
The only SLR that I used professionally was Hasselblad . And then only for a short period. As I preferred the advantages of the twin lens reflex
For family snaps I had used both Pentax and Olympus SLR,s

For all practical purposes the reign of the reflex viewing and focusing system is over.
The need of a physical link between viewing focussing and exposing has become redundant. As these are now all functions of the sensor, both input and out put.

However sensors share the same difficulty with the use of focal plane shutter and mirrors, especially with synchronising flash. This will be solved with the future advent of global sensor readout. For the time being bladed shutters, as always, will provide the maximum synchronising facility.

I expect global sensor shutters to be universal in the next few years. This will solve both rolling shutter and synchronisation problems.

At that time the advantage of Mirrorless cameras will become overwhelming.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
I expect global sensor shutters to be universal in the next few years. This will solve both rolling shutter and synchronisation problems.

At that time the advantage of Mirrorless cameras will become overwhelming.
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I'll look forward to this but I do wonder how the large mp count cameras we're seeing now are going to use global shutters as there may I assume be processing and heat issues to solve. I hope any issues can be solved in the near future.
 
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TimHughes said:
@AndrewFlannigan - this is a bit better than looking only at sales, no? sales will be a leading indicator of future usage, this flickr data shows a more comprehensive view of trends in usage.
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Not really.

I think that there's enough evidence to suggest that sites like Flickr show only a tiny proportion of the images made. The only accurate data on the proportions of camera purchase (and therefor an indication of usage) has to be those sales figures.
 
woof woof said:
I'll look forward to this but I do wonder how the large mo count cameras we're seeing now are going to use global shutters as there may I assume be processing and heat issues to solve. I hope any issues can be solved in the near future.
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I have been looking forward to it for a very long time. The key metric is the pixel count. Expect lower density pro grade ones to get it first whenever that may be. This would really up the game for Fuji mf more in line with phase ones
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Not really.

I think that there's enough evidence to suggest that sites like Flickr show only a tiny proportion of the images made. The only accurate data on the proportions of camera purchase (and therefor an indication of usage) has to be those sales figures.
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It may be a small proportion, does not mean it's not a representative sample of actual usage taking into account how long cameras purchased in the past are being used. Statista has some sales data but it's not freely accessible.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
I have been looking forward to it for a very long time. The key metric is the pixel count. Expect lower density pro grade ones to get it first whenever that may be. This would really up the game for Fuji mf more in line with phase ones
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Sorry, there was a typo in my post, I typed "mo" but I meant "mp" as I think you guessed :D
 
TimHughes said:
It may be a small proportion, does not mean it's not a representative sample of actual usage...
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...but there's no way of knowing, is there?
 
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