Windows networking problems

[StewartR]

I'm configuring a new PC for the office network and I'm having some problems. I'd be grateful for any advice offered.

The basic problem is that, from my new Windows 7 PC, I can ping the server using its IP address, but not using its name.

This matters because it means I can only access files on it using its IP address (e.g.\\123.4.0.234\database) instead of using its name (e.g.\\servername\database). That matters because Microsoft Office won't let me designate locations as "trusted" if they're accessed via IP addresses. And that matters because it prevents me using all the VBA code which runs our day-to-day operations.

So it's a really serious issue. I have three XP machines which can connect properly, so it must be something to do with the way Windows 7 networking is configured. Any ideas?

 

[DemiLion]

You aren't picking up the DNS settings from the local server.

Can I take a guess and hazard that you're running Home Premium and not Pro? That would explain a lot.

You'll have to manually configure its DNS on the local machine via the 'localhosts' and 'hosts' file. If you Google those two it's fairly easy to sort out!

 

[DemiLion]

This is a fairly decent guide, the stuff that you want is covered in the comments section...

http://blog.mclaughlinsoftware.com/2009/11/26/windows-7-static-ip/

 

[StewartR]

Can I take a guess and hazard that you're running Home Premium and not Pro? That would explain a lot.

Nope. Windows 7 Professional.

 

[DemiLion]

Are you running a domain or a workgroup?

If it's the former then you need to review your server settings, if it's the latter then the above solution still applies!

 

[StewartR]

You aren't picking up the DNS settings from the local server.

I agree. I think I'd worked that out - the machine doesn't know how to translate "servername" into "123.4.0.234". My problem is that I have no idea how or where it's supposed to get that information. I looked at the TCP/IP properties of the local area connection, and it says "Obtain DNS server address automatically". For some reason that works on the XP machines but it doesn't work on the Windows 7 machine.

You'll have to manually configure its DNS on the local machine via the 'localhosts' and 'hosts' file. If you Google those two it's fairly easy to sort out!

Yes, that looks pretty straightforward. A bit of a clumsy solution to my mind, since you'd think the DNS ought to work. But much much better than nothing! Thanks for your help.

This is a fairly decent guide, the stuff that you want is covered in the comments section...

http://blog.mclaughlinsoftware.com/2009/11/26/windows-7-static-ip/

Its a bit over my head I'm afraid. Trouble is, I don't understand terms like DCHP server, static IP address, etc. So I can't scan a piece like that and pick out the relevant information - I have to wade throuh it line by line. I think I might as well just set up a hosts file and be done with.

 

[StewartR]

Are you running a domain or a workgroup?

If it's the former then you need to review your server settings, if it's the latter then the above solution still applies!

Workgroup, not domain.

This is another thing I don't really understand. I have to tell each machine which workgroup it's part of, but I don't know what a workgroup really is, or if it has any real existence other than a name that all the machines recognise. As far as I'm aware I have to tell them all they're part of the same workgroup, but is there any more to it than that?

And I have no idea what a domain is.

 

[Dale_tem]

On the xp machine and the windows 7 machine open up a cmd window and type ipconfig /all and paste the results here.

This is either a DNS issue or it could be the windows 7 machine is part of a home group, you'll need to leave the home group first (in the network and security centre I think).

Does the windows 7 machine access the internet? Can it load up websites?

Workgrouo - each computer controls its own security, there is no central security. If you aren't on a domain you are on a work group even if it is one machine.

Domain - security controlled centrally. This is the basic idea of a domain. There are various things you can do on top of this with central control.

 

[arad85]

OK, maybe a leftfield question here, but are you running any Linux/Unix machines sharing disks vis Samba?

 

[DemiLion]

This is either a DNS issue or it could be the windows 7 machine is part of a home group, you'll need to leave the home group first (in the network and security centre I think).

It's a DNS issue. The Win7 PC can resolve at IP level.

 

[Dale_tem]

On Windows 7 homegroups will effect dns. Stupid things and should always be turned off

 

[Keith W]

You will have extreme fun trying to network a win7 computer with any other computer not running win7

I have never managed it to this day which sort of confirms what some people say, that it can't be done

 

[neil_g]

On the XP can you do an ipconfig /all and tell us what dns servers you have set?

Presumably you don't have a server on site that manages dns. Unless your gateway / router is doing it I guess.

 

[neil_g]

You will have extreme fun trying to network a win7 computer with any other computer not running win7

I have never managed it to this day which sort of confirms what some people say, that it can't be done

It can be done, it should be a piece of proverbial.

 

[Dale_tem]

You will have extreme fun trying to network a win7 computer with any other computer not running win7

I have never managed it to this day which sort of confirms what some people say, that it can't be done

It can be done, but you must turn off homegroups and go through all the options in the network and sharing centre like network discovery.

An additional thing to remember is on xp network neighbourhood uses WINS for name resolution, windows 7 no longer uses WINS. So it could be a general dns issue. Can you ping the windows 7 by name from the xp machine?

 

[neil_g]

Out of interest can the 7 machine get out to the tinternet okay?

 

[Keith W]

It can be done, it should be a piece of proverbial.

It can be done, but you must turn off homegroups and go through all the options in the network and sharing centre like network discovery.

An additional thing to remember is on xp network neighbourhood uses WINS for name resolution, windows 7 no longer uses WINS. So it could be a general dns issue. Can you ping the windows 7 by name from the xp machine?

Have either of you done it?

And if so how?

Myself and quite a lot of other people on the tinterwebs would love to know

 

[Dale_tem]

Yes, read what i posted above about the option under network and sharing centre and turn off homegroups. Homegroups and having network discovery turned off will stop you connecting to non windows 7 machines.

 

[neil_g]

Have either of you done it?

And if so how?

Myself and quite a lot of other people on the tinterwebs would love to know

Yup.

How? Blimey how long is a bit of string, depends on what configuration you've got. I will say simple file sharing can be a pita though.

 

[StewartR]

Wow, lots of suggestions here. Thanks everybody.

On the xp machine and the windows 7 machine open up a cmd window and type ipconfig /all and paste the results here.

OK, I can do that when I get into the office.

Does the windows 7 machine access the internet? Can it load up websites?

Yes, no problem at all.

OK, maybe a leftfield question here, but are you running any Linux/Unix machines sharing disks vis Samba?

No. It's all Windows.

On Windows 7 homegroups will effect dns. Stupid things and should always be turned off

I'm pretty sure I have turned homegroups off, because I told the machine that this is a "work" network as opposed to "home" or "public". But I'll check in the morning.

On the XP can you do an ipconfig /all and tell us what dns servers you have set?

OK, I can do that when I get into the office.

Presumably you don't have a server on site that manages dns. Unless your gateway / router is doing it I guess.

I wouldn't know. How would I tell?

Can you ping the windows 7 by name from the xp machine?

I don't know, but it's another thing to try in the morning.

Out of interest can the 7 machine get out to the tinternet okay?

Yes, fine.

More details tomorrow, folks. Thanks for all the help so far.

 

[arad85]

Just to check... The Win 7 machine is in the same Windows Workgroup as the XP machines isn't it? The default Workgroup name for Win 7 and XP is different.

If they are in the same workgroup, I'm going to stick my neck out. I don't think it's a DNS issue. Why? DNS is about looking up www.google.co.uk NOT about resolving your local network names. Unless you run a local DNS service (and even if you do, you will access them with some form of domain suffix e.g. \\computer.home\ where home is your fake domain), you will be pointing at your ISPs (or similar) DNS servers. As you can get to all machines on the internet, I think ipconfig /all will just lead to everyone saying they can't see a problem (I may end up with egg on my face here )

My leftfield question above is because I think this is a Master Browser issue. Basically, windows networks have the concept of a single machine acting as the master, so that when any other computer asks for which computers are out there, it gets given a list. It also acts as the "MS local network DNS system" mapping \\name\ to a machine on the network. If you have competing browsers or you have a half populated list, you will only see half the computers on the network. They will be there, and you can access them via their IP address, just not their Windows computer name. Sound familiar?

To see if this is a possible cause, open up the Network tab on Explorer on the Win 7 machine. Does it see all the PCs there? Does it populate the list quickly or does it search for computers (if it populates quickly, it is because the list is being provided by the Master Browser)? What does opening the Network Places->Windows Network (or whatever it is) on the XP machine show?

To debug this further, you need to use browstat.exe available from Msoft here: http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=18546

This only works on XP. Run the command: browstat status <domain> where <domain> is your XP domain name.

If you want some (not so) light background reading, take a look here: http://www.chicagotech.net/browser.htm and also here: http://www.chicagotech.net/troubleshootingbrowser.htm

Post the output of the browstat command and I'll have a look at it.

Can you tell I've had the same problems myself

 

[arad85]

You will have extreme fun trying to network a win7 computer with any other computer not running win7

I have never managed it to this day which sort of confirms what some people say, that it can't be done

I must have magic fingers then - I have had Win 7 talking to Win 7, Vista, XP, Linux and FreeBSD all very successfully here

 

[DemiLion]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr - I'd forgotten about Browser hierachy - good spot!


I'd still say that a quick and dirty fix are the host files though!

 

[arad85]

I'd still say that a quick and dirty fix are the host files though!

Should do it BUT the next time Stuart adds a machine (or changes an IP address), he's back to square one....

Took me a good day to understand what was going on when I had similar problems here....

 

[Keith W]

I must have magic fingers then - I have had Win 7 talking to Win 7, Vista, XP, Linux and FreeBSD all very successfully here

When I am back in the office on Tuesday I will be giving you a nudge then

 

[arad85]

When I am back in the office on Tuesday I will be giving you a nudge then

That'll teach me to open my gob :bonk:

 

[StewartR]

Just to check... The Win 7 machine is in the same Windows Workgroup as the XP machines isn't it? The default Workgroup name for Win 7 and XP is different.

I will check. I have a sneaking suspicion that this might be (at least part of) the problem. When I get into the office I'll make sure they are all on the same workgroup. If they are already, or if they aren't but fixing that doesn't solve the problem, then I'll work through all the diagnostic procedures which everybody has suggested and post the results here.

 

[neil_g]

hmm not sure andy if the workgroup names would cause it to stop name resolution. at least it certainly doesnt from domain to workgroup (of different names).

i suspect if you dont know if you have a dns server then your router is probably managing it. id be interested to see the results of the dns info from an ipconfig /all on an xp machine compared to the 7 machine.

something that we havent also touched on is ipv6, that can cause odd issues if your network kit cant handle it. might be worth turning it off on the 7 box if enabled.

 

[Dale_tem]

If they are in the same workgroup, I'm going to stick my neck out. I don't think it's a DNS issue. Why? DNS is about looking up www.google.co.uk NOT about resolving your local network names. Unless you run a local DNS service (and even if you do, you will access them with some form of domain suffix e.g. \\computer.home\ where home is your fake domain), you will be pointing at your ISPs (or similar) DNS servers. As you can get to all machines on the internet, I think ipconfig /all will just lead to everyone saying they can't see a problem (I may end up with egg on my face here )

Ping always uses DNS first. So if you can ping by name, its not a DNS issue. (We have support issues where WINS works for file sharing, but the software fails due to DNS resolving to a different incorrect address)

DNS is about resolving local names and internet names as the local names are registered on the router or machine handling DHCP. You can get a list of your DHCP table and it will have their DNS names.

You do not have to use a domain suffix for ping or \\server. You can set a default suffix on your DHCP server which is distributed to your clients, or you can setup the suffix on each client. If there is no default suffix and you supply no suffix then it will look at the local machines and then fail.

If you use static IP addresses (you set the IP address on the client instead of letting it get one automatically) then the machines will not be registered on the DHCP server and so not appear in DNS. Using a DHCP reservation works better overall than a static IP.

When you set your DNS server, you normally set your router as your DNS server, this tries to resolve the address locally or using its cache and then forwords the request to you your ISP DNS servers.

So don't rule out DNS

 

[Dale_tem]

hmm not sure andy if the workgroup names would cause it to stop name resolution. at least it certainly doesnt from domain to workgroup (of different names).

That is down to the DHCP server, if your DHCP is serving all clients and it is forwarding registrations to the DNS server, then all clients served by the DHCP server will be in DNS and so be resolved. Any static IPs will need to be registered separately in DNS for name resolution.

 

[neil_g]

That is down to the DHCP server, if your DHCP is serving all clients and it is forwarding registrations to the DNS server, then all clients served by the DHCP server will be in DNS and so be resolved. Any static IPs will need to be registered separately in DNS for name resolution.

the workgroup is a completely different subnet not served by DHCP

 

[Dale_tem]

It must be being resolved by WINS.

 

[StewartR]

OK, here's an update.

The machines were not all on the same workgroup. I've fixed that now, but it has not fixed my problem.

On the network I have:

• pc-1 running XP
• pc-2 running Windows 7
• pc-3 running Windows 7 (this is the new one I'm using now)
• server running WHS 2003
• laptop running XP

I've tried pinging each machine from each of the others by name. Here are the results:

• From pc-1 running XP, I can ping pc-3, server and laptop, but not pc-2.
• From pc-2 running Windows 7, I can ping pc-3 and laptop, but not pc-1 or server.
• From pc-3 running Windows 7, I can ping pc-2 and laptop, but not pc-1 or server.
• From laptop running XP, I can ping pc-2, pc-3 and server, but not pc-1.

Here are the results of running ipconfig /all on pc-3 running Windows 7:

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : LFH-3
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : popcorn

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : popcorn
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Broadcom NetLink (TM) Gigabit Ethernet
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : BC-30-5B-BA-F8-BB
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : fe80::e18d:2077:d431:e424%11(Preferred)
IPv4 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 10.0.4.29(Preferred)
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 21 October 2011 08:30:04
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 22 October 2011 08:30:04
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 10.0.4.254
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 10.0.4.254
DHCPv6 IAID . . . . . . . . . . . : 247214171
DHCPv6 Client DUID. . . . . . . . : 00-01-00-01-15-69-F3-CC-BC-30-5B-BA-F8-BB

DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 10.0.4.254
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Enabled

Tunnel adapter isatap.popcorn:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : popcorn
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Microsoft ISATAP Adapter
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

Tunnel adapter Local Area Connection* 9:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-00-00-00-00-00-00-E0
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
IPv6 Address. . . . . . . . . . . : 2001:0:4137:9e76:10fa:1982:f5ff:fbe2(Pref
erred)
Link-local IPv6 Address . . . . . : fe80::10fa:1982:f5ff:fbe2%13(Preferred)
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : ::
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Disabled

And here are the results of running ipconfig /all on the laptop running XP:

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : STEWIRIS-6
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : popcorn

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection 2:

Media State . . . . . . . . . . . : Media disconnected
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Realtek RTL8168C(P)/8111C(P) PCI-E G
igabit Ethernet NIC
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-21-70-98-66-1C

Ethernet adapter Wireless Network Connection 2:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : popcorn
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Dell Wireless 1505 Draft 802.11n WLA
N Mini-Card
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-22-68-C3-92-D8
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 10.0.4.18
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 10.0.4.254
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 10.0.4.254
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 10.0.4.254
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : 21 October 2011 08:38:34
Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : 22 October 2011 08:38:34

So ... does this get us any further forward?

 

[Dale_tem]

I presume popcorn is the workgroup?

I generally don't use a suffix, only on a domain, do they all have the same suffix?

Can you browse by name on each machine (\\computername) to all the other computers?

 

[neil_g]

is 10.0.4.254 the router? i imagine if its the gateway too then its the router.

id turn off ipv6 also, it may not resolve this issue but its something else that can go wrong.

 

[neil_g]

just had a quick look but you could set the WHS up as a DNS server, that might make life easier?

 

[StewartR]

I presume popcorn is the workgroup?

I have no idea what popcorn is (in this context). The workgroup name on all machines is WORKGROUP.

I generally don't use a suffix, only on a domain, do they all have the same suffix?

I have no idea what a suffix is. I've checked by doing ipconfig /all on all four machines (excluding the server) and the same suffix is used on all of them.

Can you browse by name on each machine (\\computername) to all the other computers?

I'm not sure I understand the question. I can ping some but not all machines by name, as reported above. What exactly do you want me to do to answer this question?

 

[StewartR]

is 10.0.4.254 the router? i imagine if its the gateway too then its the router.

I don't know. How can I tell?

id turn off ipv6 also, it may not resolve this issue but its something else that can go wrong.

How do I do that?

just had a quick look but you could set the WHS up as a DNS server, that might make life easier?

Someone who had the foggiest idea what you meant might be able to set the WHS up as a DNS server, but I certainly couldn't unless somebody told me how to.

 

[RobertP]

Brings back memories of similar problems with master browser on our work network but that was all XP.

You have people here that know a lot more about networking than I do so I'll leave them to it.

I have XP and even an old windows98 computer talking to windows 7 at home with no problems so it can be done.

The only thing I'd throw into the pot is firewall and anti virus settings. Kaspersky that I use has a habit of blocking network shares until settings are changed to allow the lan to be trusted.

 

[Dale_tem]

A suffix is part of an address, in a domain it will be the domain name ie google.co.uk

If i was on the google network and I tried to resolve the name server, it would use the suffix to find the computer, so it would look for server.google.co.uk.

I would try to find out why it says popcorn. Is this anything to do with your ISP or is a setting on the WHS as I think it is the WHS that is distributing the popcorn.

on a side note if you google 'dns suffix popcorn' you get this thread, impressive


The last part is 'ping LFH-3' will use DNS to resolve the name. If you open up a My Computer Window and type in '\\LFH-3' it will resolve the name using WINS. To you its the same, but the computer uses 2 different methods to return the information.

For \\computername to work correctly, each computer should have a share made available.