Work experience

some awesome advice there jon - thank you for that!

I guess the freebie is to get the preverbial foot in the door.
 
Not nowadays it isn't.

With all due respect to Jon, his advice stems from 20 odd years ago or so, and things just don't work the same way anymore.
 
DemiLion said:
Regionals take the pisch enough as it is without giving them further encouragement.

Being published for credit will get you nowhere really. The NUJ/BPPA etc wont accept it for accreditation, and neither will Dataco and all it will tell the production staff on a paper is that you are prepared to work for nothing apart from 0.00001p's worth of ink.
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The Regionals are broke. One analyst suggests that half of all remaining titles will close in the next five years. They simply don't have the money to pay decent freelance rates, but they need photos. What solution? They go to the cheapest option, even if it means a drop in quality (and it surely does :razz:).

Anyone starting out is unlikely to worry much about NUJ/BPPA, but with a half-decent portfolio they may have a chance at getting up that ladder.

So, coming to you, mani:

mani said:
I guess the freebie is to get the preverbial foot in the door.
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I'd say yes, that's one way to try to break in.
 
ding76uk said:
Do you have a website? Look at doing this to have something to easily refer people to when they want to see samples of your work.

Get out there and be shooting. If you show you are working hard to improve your photography, then it is a plus in a lot of cases.

Well worded emails to relevant local businesses/papers.

The next point may come off as harsh but don't take it that way.

Grow a thicker skin. You have been sensitive to replies on here (not even thinking that the people you are upset at may be the people who can help you most). Be aware that photography is not nice. You need to know that because someone is saying something you don't like that they are not doing it out of malice but as advice. Your attitude I am sorry to say comes off a little childish at times, and that is the last thing anyone wants in an employee.

People in photography generally have little time for letting people down gently. If your work is rubbish, they will tell you, straight away and very bluntly in a lot of cases.

You need to start building a strong portfolio of images. Putting them up for criticism and being prepared for things you don't want to hear.

It sounds harsh, but it is a harsh reality of the photo world.
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I don't have a website, the only free site making thing I know of is webs.com and that's not the best in the world. But I suppose it would work.
 
Sorry, can I just double check that again?

As a supposed professional photographer, accredited journalist (presumably NUJ ) and tutor you are seriously advising people to work for free?

If you'd tried handing that advice out in Business or Sport you would have had your head ripped off by now.

All free submissions to a newspaper will teach you is that any production editor will print garbage provided that it costs them nothing.

Regionals may profess to be skint, but if you look at the parent companies, Archant, Newsquest etc, they are still turning healthy profits.

The industry as a whole is under massive pressure to evolve and innovate, hence the continued rise of agency and freelance, but having one of the three principle areas of journalism devalued by its own practitioners is frankly barking.

You need to have a serious word with yourself.
 
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DemiLion said:
Not nowadays it isn't.

With all due respect to Jon, his advice stems from 20 odd years ago or so, and things just don't work the same way anymore.
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Well, I still do a fair bit of work for regionals, and I see it happening. A lot of them now use `local correspondents` who send in nibs and snapshots for pennies. The few remaining reporters (pretty much all of whom have had no pay rise for the last couple of years) are chained to their desks and can't get out and about as much. Lots of local offices have shut and titles are produced centrally, dailies have become weeklies, paid-fors have gone free, advertising has dropped through the floor.
Holdthefronpage don't have a single photography job listed today.

How is anyone expected to make a start in the industry?

Hopefully things will settle down a bit, and there is always going to be a demand for good photos, hence a need for good photographers, but it's never going to be the same again.
 
Demi, why is it that anyone who dares to have a different opinion to you treated like they know nothing or are stupid.
I hate to **** on your bonfire but people are entitled to their own opinions and some, shock horror, know far more than you!

Andy
 
DemiLion said:
Sorry, can I just double check that again?

As a supposed professional photographer, accredited journalist (presumably NUJ ) and tutor you are seriously advising people to work for free?

If you'd tried handing that advice out in Business or Sport you would have had your head ripped off by now.

All free submissions to a newspaper will teach you is that any production editor will print garbage provided that it costs them nothing.

Regionals may profess to be skint, but if you look at the parent companies, Archant, Newsquest etc, they are still turning healthy profits.

The industry as a whole is under massive pressure to evolve and innovate, hence the continued rise of agency and freelance, but having one of the three principle areas of journalism devalued by its own practitioners is frankly barking.

You need to have a serious word with yourself.
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What I'm saying is perhaps offering some free examples of your abiliy in the hope of getting paid work at a later date may work. What's your solution?

Oh, and on Archant's `healthy profit`:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2010/mar/08/archant-regional-newspapers-profits

Newsquest have reported a decent rise, but this is in part as a result of massive cuts and a two year wage freeze (though not for the boss, natch:shake:)
 
To be honest I don't think newspapers are taking on staff photographers anymore, it's far cheaper to get images from the likes of freelance photographers and in the case of the newspapers I used to work for a hell of a lot of images were sent in by the general public.

I used to work for a very large newspaper group in South Wales, when I started there were 32 photographers when I retired 2 years ago there were 8 photographers left. The digital era has killed the staff photographer, anybody with a digital P&S can take a picture and email it in free and believe me the editors will use them.
 
jon ryan said:
How is anyone expected to make a start in the industry?
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Firstly by learning good quality photography and not assuming that just buying a decent SLR makes you a decent all round photographer.
Once that's done, by learning how to caption and submit using LR, PM or similar.
Thirdly by understanding what makes a marketable, usable Press image.

All of that takes commitment, hard work, time and self motivation.

You don't need a collection of tearsheets to submit as a portfolio, just examples of work that would be suitable for publication in the relevant field.

By all means submit on spec, but when you do, ask for the appropriate fees and be prepared to accept rejection. It isn't going to happen overnight and you need to develop a thick skin; it's a tough industry to work in.
 
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Keebsuk said:
Demi, why is it that anyone who dares to have a different opinion to you treated like they know nothing or are stupid.
I hate to **** on your bonfire but people are entitled to their own opinions and some, shock horror, know far more than you!

Andy
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I'm not sure where you are coming from, but I'm being nice and fluffy at the moment in the face of some seriously bad advice that's being handed out.

Can I suggest reading any of several threads in the Sports forum where this subject comes up? You'll find that my response is really quite mild.

Better yet, pop along to your nearest NUJ chapel meeting and try suggesting that cubs should submit free images. Let me know if you're going to do that, because watching the reaction will be hilarious!
 
BrandonDouglas said:
When you put it that way, that justifies being careful of grammar etc.
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Although valid, that is not really the point I was trying to make. Everyone makes mistakes, I had to go back and edit my post because I messed a word up :lol:

The point I was trying to emphasise really is that, although I'm sure you didn't intend to, these guys had given some advice and you were almost dismissing it as being irrelevant. In the sort of role you are looking for (work experience or trainee) having been there myself it is vital you demonstrate that you will take on board what people say (even if you don't necessarily agree with it) and not just brush it off as it will likely rub the person up the wrong way who has taken the time to give you advice, and make other people look upon you in a negative way. A good attitude, willing and ability to learn are key things that any employer will look for, as well as enthusiasm which you seem to have plenty of :)

Are you currently still at school? What age are you? (If you don't mind me asking, trying to think of the best advice to give). I doubt I am much older than you, being 20 myself.

Have you considered talking to an organisation called Connexions? They can offer career advice for people aged 13-19 and in some cases help organise work placements etc. I doubt you would be able to find much better advice than that given on here though!

Best of luck with it mate :thumbs:
 
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DemiLion said:
Firstly by learning good quality photography and not assuming that just buying a decent SLR makes you a decent all round photographer.
Once that's done, by learning how to caption and submit using LR, PM or similar.
Thirdly by understanding what makes a marketable, usable Press image.

All of that takes commitment, hard work, time and self motivation.

You don't need a collection of tearsheets to submit as a portfolio, just examples of work that would be suitable for publication in the relevant field.
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No argument with any of that

By all means submit on spec, but when you do, ask for the appropriate fees and be prepared to accept rejection. It isn't going to happen overnight and you need to develop a thick skin; it's a tough industry to work in.
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All well and good. And if the appropriate fee, ie the amount that the editor has in the freelance budget, means a payment of £5, or even nothing at all, then what? You have a nice grab of a lorry blocking the local high street. Minor story but life blood of the regionals. No other paper will be interested. Your only possible market is the local sheet, and they would like to use it but can't afford to pay. Is it better to let them have it or leave it to gather hard-drive dust?
 
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Speaking as an ex NUJ member, our chapel didn't do much for us when redundancies were announced hence the 32 photographers down to 8. And if your editor wants to except pictures from any cubs or guides group there's nothing the NUJ can do to stop it.
 
DemiLion said:
I'm not sure where you are coming from, but I'm being nice and fluffy at the moment in the face of some seriously bad advice that's being handed out.

Bad advice in your opinion but not necessarily everyone's.

Can I suggest reading any of several threads in the Sports forum where this subject comes up? You'll find that my response is really quite mild.

I dont need to. I find keyboard warriors very dull tbh.

Better yet, pop along to your nearest NUJ chapel meeting and try suggesting that cubs should submit free images. Let me know if you're going to do that, because watching the reaction will be hilarious!


I don't agree with the freebies comments but don't find it necessary to make glib comments either.
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jon ryan said:
Newsquest have reported a decent rise, but this is in part as a result of massive cuts and a two year wage freeze (though not for the boss, natch:shake:)
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As a previous employee (I worked in sales, rather than editoral/photographic) and am now, thankfully, an ex-employee they've had, as you say, massive cuts, which are still continuing - Some of the people I worked with have recently been made redundant with the jobs being centralised across offices. They also re-did everyone's working contracts shortly before I started, to make them worse for their employees, basically the worst contract I have ever seen, with JUST enough to make it legal IMO.

The employees had two options, sign the contract, or we'll get rid of you and offer you a new job with, surprise surprise, a new contract ;) - Some staff did get SOME old terms carried over, but not many.

I can honestly say it was one of the worst experiences of my working life and I am truly glad I've left and have no more dealings with them now.
 
DemiLion said:
Better yet, pop along to your nearest NUJ chapel meeting and try suggesting that cubs should submit free images. Let me know if you're going to do that, because watching the reaction will be hilarious!
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Clearly they wouldnt approve as that is what a union is about, however, we have all moved on in the 21st century from the restrictive practices of closed shop - whether you agree or disagree with that, its a fact.

It would be wrong for a union member to go against union pay rates but non-union... up to you!

If you find a route that works for you, use it - nobody owes you a living and its dog eat dog world sadly.

As for the OP, welcome to the wonderful world of commercial photography, don't forget to wear the thick plates on your body armour on your back...
 
I was given work experience at a portrait photo studio and believe me it's not fun, for legal purposes you can't go off the premises for shoots so you working away from the newspaper HQ is a no no and also I wasn't aloud to do anything but put a few papers here and there as it would have disrupt the workflow and with newspapers it's a constant deadline.

Maybe try working in something similar rather than photography or try your hand at IT or something as you are more likely to learn skills doing that :)
 
Grayo said:
Speaking as an ex NUJ member, our chapel didn't do much for us when redundancies were announced hence the 32 photographers down to 8. And if your editor wants to except pictures from any cubs or guides group there's nothing the NUJ can do to stop it.
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desantnik said:
Clearly they wouldnt approve as that is what a union is about, however, we have all moved on in the 21st century from the restrictive practices of closed shop - whether you agree or disagree with that, its a fact.

It would be wrong for a union member to go against union pay rates but non-union... up to you!

If you find a route that works for you, use it - nobody owes you a living and its dog eat dog world sadly.

As for the OP, welcome to the wonderful world of commercial photography, don't forget to wear the thick plates on your body armour on your back...
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I completely agree with both of those points of view, and personally I don't have a lot of time for the NUJ especially at the chapel/chapter level that I mentioned. They seem to enjoy spending too much time discussing politics rather than getting on with the real world.

However as one of the principle gatekeepers they still have a lot of clout in the industry, especially when it comes to freelancing and accreditation.
 
Interesting comment about people checking your posts and one that people don’t think about when they post, it amazes me how many applications I have seen with some very strange email addresses.

I was speaking to two newly appointed teachers who were shocked to discover we had googled their email address checked there facebook pages etc, people just need to be aware that what you post is often read by people you maybe never meant to see it
 
jd.smith said:
Interesting comment about people checking your posts and one that people don’t think about when they post, it amazes me how many applications I have seen with some very strange email addresses.

I was speaking to two newly appointed teachers who were shocked to discover we had googled their email address checked there facebook pages etc, people just need to be aware that what you post is often read by people you maybe never meant to see it
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I thought fb pages were private and showed nothing but basic info ?
Anyhoo.

Now I'm paranoid :/ aha
 
They can be but you be surprised how many dont set that flag! And the last thing people need is a potential employeer seeing you out on the lash with your mates Dancing naked in a fountain
 
BrandonDouglas said:
I thought fb pages were private and showed nothing but basic info ?
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When I started using it years ago they showed everything unless you told it not to. I think they changed it to make most stuff private by default but you should definitely check.

Somewhere in the privacy settings there is (or used to be, they might have taken it out when they idiot proofed it) an option to see your profile as it's seen by people who haven't added you. You can see it as someone who's not logged in at all sees it by logging out and then visiting your profile page.

Be aware that even if you have gone to the trouble of making everything on your Facebook profile private the recently added questions feature cannot be made private.
I know someone who when you went on their profile the first thing at the top of the Questions page was a "Things to do before you die list" and five of the six answers that Facebook had chosen to display were sexually orientated. While they were all perfectly normal things that anyone the same age would have done they were not things you'd want potential employers or clients to see.
 
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lofcuk said:
No problem, Norbert isn't is real name obv. lol.

Thinking about it, I think he lives in France, but anyway, he may have some contacts.
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Just seen this linked on the Orient MB. Long shot but you're not the club photographer Simon O'Conner are you? I guess you're not as you'd have offered.
 
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