Working with a sports manufacturer

chphoto

chphoto

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Name
Chris
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Evening all, just a quick query for you all...

I might soon have the privilege of doing some photo work with an extreme sports manufacturer :D Just emailing their marketing guy at the moment, showing him previous work etc. Of course, this will be paid work so he's enquired about my daily rates and the subsequent costs of exclusive rights to any images they need to use.

Now, I have no problem granting them exclusivity, but my question lies around copyright... In this situation, which of the following would apply?
1. I retain copyright, but grant the company exclusive rights to the image for their usage on the website/brochures/advertising/etc
2. I hand over both the copyright and exclusive rights


(Price negotiations would take place for each individual shoot depending on what's needed. I'm not after a discussion on costs, just what's considered the usual practice regarding copyright ownership in this sort of situation!)

Thanks people :)
 
for a product shot like that I would anticipate the manufacturer wanting full copyright so they can tweak/crop/rehash as much as they want in different marketing campaigns

whether you would want to do that for a bigger pay packet at first, or try and negotiate prices on all the different potential sizes/edits for each media source (depending on the wording of the contracts etc)

it might be easier for you if you can convince them to pay you a good enough amount not to feel ripped off but you also don't spend hundreds of hours trying to work out what to be paid for the different edits with a 5degree warmer colour temperature
 
I would go for option 1 there, unless the fee for the shoot is quiet substantial.

Grant licence for a set length of time, with your offer to re-touch any photo's they want to suit their needs
 
Not sure what the issue is? ... It's their product and you are being paid! The photos are theirs. Just ensure you are paid appropriately, what else could you do with them anyway?
 
Thanks for the input guys!

@Splog - there's no 'issue' as such, I was jut trying to clarify what the usual process is with these things. As I understand it, guys like Kipax with their sports agency work hand over everything to the agency, hence they're not allowed to post elsewhere. Just wondering if a similar thing would apply to me, or if I had the copyright so I could show the (watermarked!) images off on here, and be able to say "ah yes, this was used in the winter 2011 catalogue" or "this one now takes pride of place on the website homepage" etc etc :)
 
You've been given some seriously bad advice on here Chris. Never ever give (or sell) your copyright away unless you can possible help it, especially for commercial work.

There's nothing wrong with granting exclusive rights for the right fee structure (time, region, media etc), but as a photographer your copyright represents your pension.
 
Yes well put.
If it's a company like Apple or Nike then fair enough the fee will reflect the use but I guess this is a small company?
All clients get an exclusivity period, after it has expired then they are yours to syndicate, within reason.

Never give away copyright as it stops you using the pics for your own marketing, and as previous poster, it is your pension, and only asset.
 
Cyprino, normally you go with option 1 and license with a price accordingly at your rates. If they insist on copyright & full rights then its up to you if you want the work. If yes and you do want the work then increase the overall cost of doing the job to reflect you giving up copyright but rem you will not be able to even use these in your portfolio if you do.

Iain
 
There's absolutely nothing wrong with selling the copyright on an image especially if you're being commissioned especially for the shoot.

You've got two choices:

a) You dig your heals in and refuse to agree to sell the copyright. End result will probably be that you don't get the job.
b) You say work out a rate that's good for you both and you agree to sell copyright. End result you get the job.

In both scenarios you don't have copyright to images from the shoot, in the first instance because some other photographer took the shots and got paid for it, or, more preferably, because you sold the rights for a rate you were happy with.

Getting hung up over selling copyright is daft, thousands of photographers around the world do it everyday, and even more artists, graphic designers and musicians are creating works which they'll never have rights to.

If I were in your shoes I'd agree a half day/day rate plus travels and expenses for full copyright but granting you a licence, in perpetuity, to use the shots for self promotion/marketing only. That way you get the job, you get paid, they get the shots, and you get to boost your portfolio and the potential for further work for the client.
 
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I think Barney is speaking the most sense here. It depends on if you are willing not to get the job, and hence payment, for the sake of the copyright. As he says, ensure you get the rights to use them for your own promotion.
 
I don't. I think that he's talking complete guff.

a) It's a commercial shoot
b) The client is asking for exclusive rights not copyright
c) most people asking for copyright don't actually understand what that means

EIdt:

For future ref, this sort of thing is much better posted in the Business forum.
 
DemiLion said:
I don't. I think that he's talking complete guff.
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Well you've already shown your lack of acumen elsewhere so I'll not lose too much sleep over it.

a) It's a commercial shoot
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Hard to see how that's relevant.

b) The client is asking for exclusive rights not copyright
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The OP is asking about copyright, unless I'm inferring something incorrectly from: "my question lies around copyright"

c) most people asking for copyright don't actually understand what that means
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Again, I hardly see the relevance.

For future ref, this sort of thing is much better posted in the Business forum.
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Well, I suppose one out of four is an improvement on last time.
 
Edtog said:
Or you explain the licensing of photographs and still get the work

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=298758
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Indeed, but the OP's question specified copyright hence my post not mentioning licensing.

Licensing is the preferred route, if you can stick to standard licensing forms. As soon as get into levels of exclusivity though you could find yourself spending more time negotiating and sorting the licence out than is worth. That's where business sense needs to kick in to be able to calculate the time spent getting the job on top of your usual costs against the value of the order and prospect of future resales.

If it's a job with a young actor or sportsman then it might be worthwhile in the hope that they make it in the future, but if it's just for a company's brochure what's the point in spending time on securing rights where the likelihood of repeat earnings are remote? Chances are the time would be better spent hitting the phone and prospecting for other customers.
 
NorthernNikon said:
With such an erudite response to further the discourse we could be forgiven for assuming that we had one of the country's leading practitioners of intellectual property law in our midst.
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Not in the slightest, but if you don't understand why the fact that it's a commercial shoot has relevance, on what grounds are you giving out advice?

If Cyprino followed your advice then he'd charge a day rate and be done with it, whereas the client has already offered a day rate plus licensing.

The advice that you've handed out has just lost him money before the contract has even been discussed, let alone signed.
 
I see what you guys are saying, and the benefits of both situations, it's certainly an interesting point!
I'm just drafting an email now, I'll probably go with something along the lines of "I'm more than happy to agree terms on exclusive rights for the image and its future usage, with me retaining the copyright for marketing & self promotion purposes."

Whatever the outcome, I'm not going to be disappointed as I'll be getting paid to take photos of sport I enjoy!
 
DemiLion said:
Not in the slightest, but if you don't understand why the fact that it's a commercial shoot has relevance, on what grounds are you giving out advice?
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Being a commercial shoot isn't relevant. It would the be same situation were it an editorial shoot or a private commission. I'm therefore intrigued to hear why you think it is so relevant.

If Cyprino followed your advice then he'd charge a day rate and be done with it, whereas the client has already offered a day rate plus licensing.

The advice that you've handed out has just lost him money before the contract has even been discussed, let alone signed.
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How much money has it lost him then? I don't remember any figures being quoted. Strange to presume that the advice would be to sell for less than has already been offered. The first thing to occur to me was that it was an opportunity to up sell, increasing the value of the shoot by offering copyright for more than the original offer, in effect getting money for nothing because the copyright of the images would likely be pretty much worthless to the photographer anyway. I fail to see how that would be losing the OP money.
 
Cyprino said:
I'm just drafting an email now, I'll probably go with something along the lines of "I'm more than happy to agree terms on exclusive rights for the image and its future usage, with me retaining the copyright for marketing & self promotion purposes."
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I'd be more precise with my terminology than that. "Exclusive rights" is meaningless unless you outline what those rights are and what the exclusivity is. Also how long are you granting these rights for?

Search the AOP website for standard licensing forms which will give you a better starting place.

Whatever the outcome, I'm not going to be disappointed as I'll be getting paid to take photos of sport I enjoy!
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As long as you've been able to make an informed choice and are happy, that's the main thing.
 
NorthernNikon said:
Cyprino said:
I'm just drafting an email now, I'll probably go with something along the lines of "I'm more than happy to agree terms on exclusive rights for the image and its future usage, with me retaining the copyright for marketing & self promotion purposes."
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I'd be more precise with my terminology than that. "Exclusive rights" is meaningless unless you outline what those rights are and what the exclusivity is. Also how long are you granting these rights for?

Search the AOP website for standard licensing forms which will give you a better starting place.
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I'm not at the point of discussing specific terms for rights, I haven't actually been offered any work yet! I'll have a nose at the AOP site, thanks.

Whatever the outcome, I'm not going to be disappointed as I'll be getting paid to take photos of sport I enjoy!
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As long as you've been able to make an informed choice and are happy, that's the main thing.
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You've all been very helpful on the matter, and I look forward to showing you my hard work sometime further down the line :)
 
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