would you use SLR Hut

OK, too many things here to quote each one, but I have learned something...
Camera was not liable for import duty - so 'Duty Paid' could be taken whichever way you want.
Studying my invoice, it tells me exactly what each bit costs etc, but has no details of the sellers address, or company status
As LensFettish says, it is me who should have paid VAT (before receiving the goods, but after they landed in the country apparently). This is the thing that really surprises me - everything you buy from the internet you are liable for VAT ( and possibly duty) on. If the seller wasn't in the EU or VAT registered, then it is the buyers responsibility. The duty is waived if it is less than £9 I think (so roughly £50 items are liable).
Now forgetting all the other crap in this thread, how many people know that? And just in case you think "well they are hardly going to search my house" I was once stopped by customs coming back into the uK with some ex-rental skis. Worth about £20, But since they stopped me they went to town on everything they could find - including asking me for the receipt for some 3-year old skiboots I took out with me, and trying to charge me duty on them when I couldn't prove I had paid it.
Now put that in context of a shiny new camera you take on holiday - when you return you need to prove you had it when you went out, and that requires the receipt - which doesn't show duty paid.....
So in answer to the OP who wanted to know whether to buy from SLRHut, MY opinion is now this:-
Service was good, price was good, item was good. Stress was bad, price was not so good if I stumped up the VAT, and feeling guilty everytime you go through customs is not good. Lucky this was a present and it won't be me carrying it abroad!
 
Do you have any connection to SLR Hut?

(Declaration of interest: I am a journalist)
 
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Apriumben said:
OK, too many things here to quote each one, but I have learned something...
Camera was not liable for import duty - so 'Duty Paid' could be taken whichever way you want.
Studying my invoice, it tells me exactly what each bit costs etc, but has no details of the sellers address, or company status
As LensFettish says, it is me who should have paid VAT (before receiving the goods, but after they landed in the country apparently). This is the thing that really surprises me - everything you buy from the internet you are liable for VAT ( and possibly duty) on. If the seller wasn't in the EU or VAT registered, then it is the buyers responsibility. The duty is waived if it is less than £9 I think (so roughly £50 items are liable).
Now forgetting all the other crap in this thread, how many people know that? And just in case you think "well they are hardly going to search my house" I was once stopped by customs coming back into the uK with some ex-rental skis. Worth about £20, But since they stopped me they went to town on everything they could find - including asking me for the receipt for some 3-year old skiboots I took out with me, and trying to charge me duty on them when I couldn't prove I had paid it.
Now put that in context of a shiny new camera you take on holiday - when you return you need to prove you had it when you went out, and that requires the receipt - which doesn't show duty paid.....
So in answer to the OP who wanted to know whether to buy from SLRHut, MY opinion is now this:-
Service was good, price was good, item was good. Stress was bad, price was not so good if I stumped up the VAT, and feeling guilty everytime you go through customs is not good. Lucky this was a present and it won't be me carrying it abroad!
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So despite their claiming on their website that prices include Vat , in actual fact they don't and the buyer is liable for the VAT seperately :thinking: (theres got to be a law break there somewhere)

Also what do you mean "camera was not liable for import duty" ? Of course it was - if they brougfht it in and shipped it from a uk warehouse they should have paid the duty, and be registered for VAT - if it came in from overseas you are liable for the duty as the importer. Either way saying its not liable for it is wrong.

Also you are wrong when you say everything you buy on the internet you are liable for the VAt on - in 99% of cases if you are buying from a uk seller then you pay the VAT at point of sale and they then pay their VAT bill to HMRC. If you buy from a UK seller who is not Vat registered (because their turnover is below the threshold) then VAT isnt payable

Only if you buy from an overseas seller who isnt registered for VAT in the uk then you may be liable for the VAT on import (and duty) - in the case of SLR hut it would appear you pay the VAT twice - once where they've added it to their prices despite not actually being VAt registered (based on your info above) and then again when you get stuck with it on import.
 
My honest guess (and bear in mind it is a guess) is that SLR Hut isn't UK VAT registered, I can't see why they would be unless they were making lots of UK purchases too (and therefore needed to reclaim their input VAT back). As a company based in the USA and selling products likely manufactured in Japan to the UK, I can't personally think of any reason why they would be UK VAT registered.

Unfortunately what that means is that the buyer is liable to pay the UK VAT and any customs/excise duty. If the delivery got stopped at customs on the way in, they would be well within their rights to impound the goods until the buyer pays the tax due.

Unless of course SLR Hut have an arrangement with HMC&E whereby they pay the VAT and customs/excise duty over directly to them, which they may well do, but only SLR Hut can answer that.

I'd be wary of buying from them unfortunately until you knew the answer to this, to be on the safe side.
 
LensFettish said:
.

Unless of course SLR Hut have an arrangement with HMC&E whereby they pay the VAT and customs/excise duty over directly to them, which they may well do, but only SLR Hut can answer that.
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If that happened their prices would be closer to UK prices, it isn't coincidence that the grey retailers are normally around 20% cheaper than the official UK retailers prices.
 
My thought exactly Dave1 but we are just speculating until someone like SLR Hut confirms.....

Can anyone confirm whether on the invoice that comes with the grey import lens, its specifically splits out the VAT and had a VAT registration number on it? If you charge VAT (output VAT) you must state the VAT registration number on there.

Its a good point that if you're coming back in to the country with a lens (that you may have bought some time ago as a grey import) and are asked to provide a receipt primarily as proof that you haven't just bought it on that holiday you're returning from, then if it turns out there wasn't any VAT/duty paid, my understanding is that you may still be liable for it.
 
In fact doesn't a Digital Rev representative post in the sales section of this forum? Perhaps someone could specifically ask them who pays the VAT and Customs Duty to the UK tax authorities on every lens/camera they send to the UK?

That would be the quickest way to resolve this without everyone speculating.
 
big soft moose said:
Also what do you mean "camera was not liable for import duty" ? Of course it was - if they brougfht it in and shipped it from a uk warehouse they should have paid the duty, and be registered for VAT - if it came in from overseas you are liable for the duty as the importer. Either way saying its not liable for it is wrong.
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I checked on HMRC Website before I posted that, camera from USA is not liable for duty. I have no idea why not. Possibly some mutual trade agreement
Also you are wrong when you say everything you buy on the internet you are liable for the VAt on - in 99% of cases if you are buying from a uk seller then you pay the VAT at point of sale and they then pay their VAT bill to HMRC. If you buy from a UK seller who is not Vat registered (because their turnover is below the threshold) then VAT isnt payable
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Not quite right as I meant it - you are liable for VAT, and usually you pay the VAT as part of the purchase price (possibly without realising. In this case I am equally liable but AFAIK I haven't paid it. My defence is it says on the website that prices include VAT... with hindsight I am now having doubts.

And just so there is no misunderstanding, apart form the small sentence on their website about prices including VAT, it is not mentioned anywhere - and certainly not on the invoice.
 
Apriumben said:
I checked on HMRC Website before I posted that, camera from USA is not liable for duty. I have no idea why not. Possibly some mutual trade agreement
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I have no idea where it says that on HMRC website.

This is what I found,

Tax on goods bought from a non-EU country

If you're ordering or sending goods from a non-EU country to the UK, even as a gift, you may have to pay Customs Duty, Excise Duty and import VAT.

Please note that where the guidance below refers to 'purchased goods' it makes no difference if the goods are new or used, for example goods bought on an auction site. And it doesn't matter if you buy them for yourself or to sell on.


I have cropped out the references to alcohol, tobacco and perfumes from here.....



All other goods

If you order or send purchased goods other than alcohol, tobacco, perfume and toilet water from a country outside the EU then you:

don't have to pay Excise Duty
may have to pay Customs Duty on goods with a value that exceeds £135
will have to pay import VAT on goods with a value that exceeds £15

Note that on all goods from outside the EU, Customs Duty is waived if the amount of duty calculated is £9 or under.


I can find no mention of any exemption for cameras from the USA :shrug:


Heather
 
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I need to change my screen! Re-reading the relevant paragraph after your post I agree, excise duty is nul, but customs duty isn't. I have no idea what the difference between the two is.

So the next question is was it paid? SLRHut would have us believe it is. As they use DHL as a courier and must ship a fair quantity of goods through them, and as I recall there was some sort of contents sticker on the outside of the pack (can't be 100% about that one now) it would seem unlikely that they could get away with shipping in quantity without paying duty. So I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Caveat emptor (hope I spelled the right) - Buyer Beware.
I'm still not convinced that makes SLRHut any worse than hundreds or thousands of other internet traders though. We are going through this purchase process in some detail, which I have never done before, and I am finding out things I never knew before. So how many other of my purchases over the years may or may not have been entirely correct? I'm not about to commit moral suicide by trawling through all my past purchases to try and find out, even if that were possible.
What I will do is send SLRHut an email asking for clarification of what duty might be liable by me if I were challenged going through customs.
 
Apriumben said:
And just so there is no misunderstanding, apart form the small sentence on their website about prices including VAT, it is not mentioned anywhere - and certainly not on the invoice.
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Does the invoice include a UK Vat number anywhere ? - if not they arent registered despite what it says on the website.

Ive just sent them an email asking politely if they are Vat registerd in the uk, if so if they could confirm their vat number, and if not why it says Vat included on the "upfront" tab of their website

We shall see - although I am not optimistic that i'll get a reply
 
big soft moose said:
THe poor guy must be getting tired of creating duplicate accounts by now
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Surely the mods can find out if these accounts are all the same person as this forum layout has a inbuilt detector. To confirm if multi accounts have been created from the same IP address
 
well ys, but that doesnt preclude someone with a mobile Ip (which provides a different number every time) or someone using a web based anonymiser like hide my ass

in normal practice most account duplicators get caught because they do something stupid like using the same email address , or saying the same thing over and over again, like for example " Slr Hut are great, i bought a camera from them, and there was no problem at all - all the people who say different are just Jellus "
 
itsme93 said:
Surely the mods can find out if these accounts are all the same person as this forum layout has a inbuilt detector. To confirm if multi accounts have been created from the same IP address
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Who exactly are you suspecting of being a multi?
 
Apriumben said:
Who exactly are you suspecting of being a multi?
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Many of the "fans" of the grey retailers have been shown to be sock puppets, I don't think anyone is making any sort of specific accusation against any user.

From previous experiences, many users will hold some suspicion against any user who joins a forum and their first set of posts is to profess their admiration for a specific grey retailer though.
 
Both very relevant questions Jon, lets wait and see :D


Les :rules:
 
Lez325 said:
Both very relevant questions Jon, lets wait and see :D


Les :rules:
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Well you may think those questions relevant, I actually find them quite insulting. For the record, my only connection to SLRHut is I have bought a camera from them. I came across this forum because I was searching for a new flash, and was slightly unhappy about the latest salesman's responses on the phone when enquiring about the promotion I had received via email. Now how exactly that is relevant I do not understand. And it is quite clear from my posts that I have no axe to grind one way or the other on SLRHut. So how does that make me a fan? I bought from them, I was more than happy with the service, but slightly uneasy about their trading practice and the risk element in ordering. I have openly questioned the legality of their practice, and in fact my obligations under UK law and laid myself open to possible action from Customs and Excise as a result

So another user of your forums no longer wants to play your games - in general your contributors seem far more interested in dissing other posters than gaining or giving information, with some notable exceptions.

As a previous customer of SLRHut I hope my email to them gains a response, and if it does I will post that response here - because I said I would earlier and I am a man of my word. As for becoming another 'fan of a grey supplier who posts once and then never comes back' - you are correct in one aspect, I won't come back.
 
Surely you can see why people are sceptical. You join forum and then make 8 posts, all of which have been in this one SLRHut thread. You then defend SLRHut and try to put up some smoke and mirrors around VAT and so on.
 
ernesto said:
Surely you can see why people are sceptical. You join forum and then make 8 posts, all of which have been in this one SLRHut thread. You then defend SLRHut and try to put up some smoke and mirrors around VAT and so on.
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No, I cannot see why people are sceptical. I can see why they are sceptical of SLRHut. I am not used to anyone doubting my word on anything, my memory on occasion, but not my integrity. Personally before degrading the honesty or integrity of any other person, or in this case company, I require some evidence before I would make my views public. Clearly that is not the case on this forum, which is why it is not the place for me. I was inclined to join this discussion because I did not like the way other posters, and indeed SLRHut, were lambasted without a shred of evidence and with seemingly no intention other than to put people down. I have gained some new knowledge along the way so it was not entirely a waste of time and effort.

For the sake of completeness, I have now had a prompt reply from SLRHut. It does not entirely answer the issues raised, but for anyone actually interested here it is:

We are a USA based company and are not required to collect VAT. We pay duties to get the product to your door (which is import tax, so we are not avoiding tax payments since it is paid upon entry into the UK).

Thank you,
SLRHut
Customer Support Team

I believe them as far as import duties are concerned, as I said previously I could not believe that using DHL in volume they could have got around declaring the goods, however it is quite plain that VAT is not being charged. I respect the fact that they gave me an answer promptly, however it does not account for the 'VAT Included' on their website. It also strongly suggests that I am liable for the VAT on the goods I bought.

At the risk of labouring the point, no American company is going to be registered for VAT over here (unless if they are international they may have a UK subsidiary that is) so anyone buying goods from the US and indeed many other countries via the internet is just as liable for VAT as if they bought them while on holiday and brought them back to the UK. I do not know of any mechanism for a foreign company to pay VAT on your (or my) behalf. My only excuse is that I didn't know the full situation when I placed my order - which of course we all no is no defence in the eyes of the law - or HMRC.

Anyone reading this now does know - even less excuse in future!

So while SLRHut are indeed culpable in misleading me and others by suggesting they have paid it, I have yet to see any internet company that has pointed out on their website that I might have to pay VAT after receiving the goods. I am sure someone can find an example somewhere to prove me wrong, unfortunately I will not be around to read your comments.

Feel perfectly free to insult me now, though I suspect it might reflect more badly on the poster than the target. :rules:
 
Apriumben said:
We are a USA based company and are not required to collect VAT. We pay duties to get the product to your door (which is import tax, so we are not avoiding tax payments since it is paid upon entry into the UK).

Thank you,
SLRHut
Customer Support Team
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Which doesnt explain why their prices are 'VAT included' according to the "upfront" tag on their website

if they are charging VAT to their customers but not paying it to HMRC then that would be fraud and misrepresentation

While on the other hand if they are not in fact charging VAT one has to question why they say they are ?

Another pertinent question is why an american company has a uk address and an 020 phone number on their website ?
 
After seeing the copied response from SLR Hut I am now even more certain that VAT is not being paid, and unfortunately its not just them, it is also the likes if Digital Rev, Panamoz, Pro Camera Shop but to name a few.

I am by no means a VAT expert but my understanding is that VAT is due on imports and the onus is on the buyer to declare/pay this.

Yes SLR Hut are making a false statement by saying "VAT inclusive" but at the end of the day HMRC won't be catching up with them as they have no jurisdiction in the USA. Instead it is the UK buyer that HMRC may catch up with, and it will be no defence when you say you thought the VAT had already been paid over. You would be liable for it.

I'm not singling out SLR Hut, I suspect it is the same for all of the grey importers. No-one has yet taken me up on the challenge but Digital Rev post on this forum so it would be easy enough to ask them the simple question - who is liable and pays the VAT on the import to HMRC? I'm sure they don't pay it.

Obviously the fact that VAT isn't being paid wont bother some people and I am not one to preach morals.....each to their own...but you should at least know what liabilities you are potentially exposing yourself to when buying from a grey importer.
 
Big soft moose - the fact they have a UK trading address & telephone number is nothing in this day & age. They do it to make the buyer feel more confident that they are buying from someone in their own country.

You or I could create a reciprocal arrangement so we have a US postal address & US telephone number within 30 minutes.
 
Apriumben said:
No, I cannot see why people are sceptical.
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Well you need to get an understanding of the perception that only posting in one thread and defending a company and implying false info about VAT inclusion may bring. You would get the same response on any active forum from members who quite rightly question potentially suspicious posts.
 
LensFettish said:
Big soft moose - the fact they have a UK trading address & telephone number is nothing in this day & age. They do it to make the buyer feel more confident that they are buying from someone in their own country.
.
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(y) - my question was rhetorical
 
Just had a look at the website... oh my... where to begin?

1. Doesn't give company name or registration number (there's no "SLR hut" on the Companies House register so this is clearly just a trading name). I think this is illegal.
2. Doesn't give VAT number, despite claiming to be VAT registered. This is illegal.It stinks.

BUT, was amused to see that their UK 'HQ' is about 500m from where I live. Incidentally, it's in the same building where Tiffen and Domke have their official UK shop (worth a visit) and where I think they used to film Saturday Kitchen.
I might pop in one day and see if there's anyone in the office who can tell me the VAT registration number... ;)
 
I think you'll find that's just a mail drop - so the chances of them telling you anything useful are minimal
 
Llamaman - incidentally I couldn't see a Co. number or VAT registration number on the Lenses for Hire website (unless its well hidden)?
 
A lack of company number could indicate a number of things;

1. Not a company (eg sole trader or partnership)
2. Not a UK company
3. Dodginess!

The lack of VAT number is troubling - it's definitely a legal requirement to have it on the invoice/receipt (except for very low value), but I can't remember if it's required on the website (my tax exams were a few years ago and I don't do VAT!)
 
Llamaman said:
A lack of company number could indicate a number of things;

1. Not a company (eg sole trader or partnership)
2. Not a UK company
3. Dodginess!

The lack of VAT number is troubling - it's definitely a legal requirement to have it on the invoice/receipt (except for very low value), but I can't remember if it's required on the website (my tax exams were a few years ago and I don't do VAT!)
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Quick search finds this

Minimum information to be provided

Service providers, whether involved in e-commerce or not, should provide the following minimum information, which must be easily, directly and permanently accessible:

The name of the service provider must be given somewhere easily accessible on the site. This might differ from the trading name and any such difference should be explained – e.g. "XYZ.com is the trading name of XYZ Enterprises Limited."

The email address of the service provider must be given. It is not sufficient to include a 'contact us' form without also providing an email address.

The geographic address of the service provider must be given. A PO Box is unlikely to suffice as a geographic address; but a registered office address would. If the business is a company, the registered office address must be included in any event.

If a company, the company's registration number should also be given.

If the business is a member of a trade or professional association, membership details, including any registration number, should be provided.

If the business has a VAT number, it should be stated – even if the website is not being used for e-commerce transactions.

Prices on the website must be clear and unambiguous. Also, state whether prices are inclusive of tax and delivery costs.

Finally, do not forget the overlapping information requirements of other laws:

The Distance Selling Regulations contain various information requirements for businesses that sell to consumers over the web. For details of these requirements, see our guide, The UK's Distance Selling Regulations.

If the service provider is a company, the Companies Act 2006 requires that the place of registration should be stated (e.g. "XYZ Enterprises Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 1234567").
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The legislation is the ELECTRONIC COMMERCE (EC DIRECTIVE) REGULATIONS 2002 (SI 2002/2013)
Full PDF can be downloaded from

http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file14635.pdf
 
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StewartR said:
Thanks for pointing this out. It was there, of course, but when we put the new site together we forgot to add a link to it!

FYI: http://www.lensesforhire.co.uk/about/legal
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see that

thats the sort of response you want when you ask for a company's Vat number. (y) - a company that responds like that is one you can trust to be dotting the t's and crossing the i's

I'm still awaiting a reply from my email to SLR hut asking them why they say VAT is inclusive in their prices, when they appear not to actually be vat registered ?
 
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The whole vat/import duty thing has been done to death a hundred times for the Hong Kong companies, though this slr hut one seems to be a bit suspect.
 
matty said:
The whole vat/import duty thing has been done to death a hundred times for the Hong Kong companies, though this slr hut one seems to be a bit suspect.
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Its a different issue this time though - on the "upfront" tab on the SLR hut website it clearly states " VAT included"

We are trying to establish how this can be since SLR hut have alledgedly said that as a foreign company they do not need to collect VAT , nor do they seem to have a VAT number.

(this is different to the various standard grey importers who don't collect vat , and have never claimed to do so)
 
I've made a report to the ISIS scheme pointing out the legal deficencies in their website.

Didn't bother with trading standards as they're outside the UK so outside their influence.
 
LensFettish said:
Llamaman - incidentally I couldn't see a Co. number or VAT registration number on the Lenses for Hire website (unless its well hidden)?
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Cheap shot given your website doesn't have a VAT number either.

-1 potential customer for you!
 
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