Zach Arias Talking Sense

donutagain said:
so can the light meter only go wrong in p mode then ?
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No but that's slightly out of context - and to be fair to you Zach (and maybe Carl) didn't handle this issue as well as they should.

The System, Zach refers to suggests that anyone can stick a modern camera in P mode and shoot great photo's. Zach says we ought to know Manual mode in order to cope in difficult conditions (he's right but he didn't explain it well) - the reality is (as you know) exposure mode means nothing - it's all about understanding the metering and using your knowledge to get the shot you want.

The System says Spray and Pray - don't worry about the technical stuff, if you're an awesome guy people will buy your stuff.:nuts:
 
Phil V said:
I'm guessing Zach's post makes lots more sense if you're aware of the whole story.:geek:

I'm not up for a rehash of the entire thing, but Zach makes some great points - and it's not about 'doing it my way'. It's more about curtailing someone who doesn't mind doing a massive damage to the industry in order to sell their own products. :annoyed:
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I hadn't read this when I posted and if thats his point then I agree, I just wish it had come across as clearly as you'd written it here.

Don't fancy starting a blog do you ;)
 
JohnN said:
I hadn't read this when I posted and if thats his point then I agree, I just wish it had come across as clearly as you'd written it here.

Don't fancy starting a blog do you ;)
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To be honest I thought that was pretty obvious from the blog.
 
In fairness I hated the writing style so gave up about of the third of the way though, so perhaps the point was there had I persevered.
 
So it is Mr fong!?
To be honest
Who cares,
its obviously just a bit of steam being let off in public, not doing this zack any good at all and just makes him look jealous.
And if anyone bought in or are still buying in on his products then it looks like he won!
 
I already said who it was in the thread.
 
Simon photo said:
So it is Mr fong!?
To be honest
Who cares,
its obviously just a bit of steam being let off in public, not doing this zack any good at all and just makes him look jealous.
And if anyone bought in or are still buying in on his products then it looks like he won!
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You're right not to care - it's a wedding photography soap opera and interesting to only a few.

But you've misunderstood the story - DJ (rockstar ex photographer) wrote a 'system' for wannabee wedding photographers, p1ssed off a lot of wedding professionals - and if you think Zach's rant makes it look like he lost - just google; David Jay The System, and see what it brings up - many in Zach's shoes would have taken to gloating:woot: - but he's still angry that it happened, oddly even Gary Fong has had a go at the 'snake oil salesman':lol:.

I wrote this with the soundtrack to 'Soap' going round my head:whistling:
 
But surely any pro photographer worth their salt shouldn't care about the wannabes or fly by nights shooting in program mode? Granted, the weekend warriors do take trade but is that trade the same caliber of customer that the likes of zach are pulling in or even want to pull in? Doubt it very much. And if the market flooding, p mode army are knocking on the doors of pros then my advice is stick to your guns cos it won't last
 
Simon photo said:
But surely any pro photographer worth their salt shouldn't care about the wannabes or fly by nights shooting in program mode? Granted, the weekend warriors do take trade but is that trade the same caliber of customer that the likes of zach are pulling in or even want to pull in? Doubt it very much. And if the market flooding, p mode army are knocking on the doors of pros then my advice is stick to your guns cos it won't last
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People have been saying it wont last for a while now and in all that time cameras have gotten smarter and the public no better informed.
 
he is not really right - manual has nothing to do with knowing how to meter correctly and you don't have to use manual to do it either.


Phil V said:
No but that's slightly out of context - and to be fair to you Zach (and maybe Carl) didn't handle this issue as well as they should.

The System, Zach refers to suggests that anyone can stick a modern camera in P mode and shoot great photo's. Zach says we ought to know Manual mode in order to cope in difficult conditions (he's right but he didn't explain it well) - the reality is (as you know) exposure mode means nothing - it's all about understanding the metering and using your knowledge to get the shot you want.

The System says Spray and Pray - don't worry about the technical stuff, if you're an awesome guy people will buy your stuff.:nuts:
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Phil V said:
You're right not to care - it's a wedding photography soap opera and interesting to only a few.

But you've misunderstood the story - DJ (rockstar ex photographer) wrote a 'system' for wannabee wedding photographers, p1ssed off a lot of wedding professionals - and if you think Zach's rant makes it look like he lost - just google; David Jay The System, and see what it brings up - many in Zach's shoes would have taken to gloating:woot: - but he's still angry that it happened, oddly even Gary Fong has had a go at the 'snake oil salesman':lol:.

I wrote this with the soundtrack to 'Soap' going round my head:whistling:
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ha ha ha ha - DJ brough a smile to my face :lol:
 
Simon photo said:
But surely any pro photographer worth their salt shouldn't care about the wannabes or fly by nights shooting in program mode? Granted, the weekend warriors do take trade but is that trade the same caliber of customer that the likes of zach are pulling in or even want to pull in? Doubt it very much. And if the market flooding, p mode army are knocking on the doors of pros then my advice is stick to your guns cos it won't last
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But it's not about turning the tide, it's about not letting someone who is admired by many telling them it's not just OK to do - but that they could be proud of it and it doesn't matter how bad they are if they paid him money - he'd support them in their dream.

I keep saying - we don't care how many cr a p photographers turn up - they soon get better or disappear. But we have to hold up some sort of standard or they will become the 'norm' and we're all screwed - us and our customers.

In the 70s and 80's pro's complained about the quality of 35mm cameras meters getting so good they'd take work from Pro's, then it was AF and Program modes, Pro's kept pushing the improved performance of their MF gear.
Then with digital it got worse, and Pro's have to push the importance of good business practices and constantly improve their skills, but with the internet learning is easier and it's a struggle to keep an advantage.

In all honesty - the photo's taken by many newbies at a first wedding are better than many 'Pro's' were doing in the 80's and 90's - so customers are benefiting. But if we allow standards to slip rather than pushing them upwards there's no winners.
 
Just so you can see what I actually said - because your response seems to suggest something else. I rarely use Manual - and rant about it often enough.:rules:

But in order to use the Auto modes properly I have to understand what the camera is metering. I suppose I'm saying Zach used 'being able to shoot in Manual' as shorthand for being in control rather than letting the camera just do it.

As I always say, P mode has shift functions and I can use exactly the same settings for a shot in P, AV, TV or M - and that shot can be exposed perfectly or badly - down to me and the meter.

POAH said:
he is not really right - manual has nothing to do with knowing how to meter correctly and you don't have to use manual to do it either.
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Phil V said:
... Zach says we ought to know Manual mode in order to cope in difficult conditions (he's right but he didn't explain it well) - the reality is (as you know) exposure mode means nothing - it's all about understanding the metering and using your knowledge to get the shot you want.
...
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Im in a wedding right now, bit drunk, but! Im shooting with my olympus 35rc.
Its a shutter priority/manual camera
I've chosen to leave it on A mode.
Does this make me lazy? Incompetent?
No. It means that with the tri x 400 pushed to 800 i will get the shots i want and when i develop them the results will be the way i want.
So
Does shooting in aperture priority make me less of a photographer?
Lazy?
 
It makes you both and you know it. If it isn't in manual then you shouldn't even be allowed near a wedding.
 
Simon photo said:
Im in a wedding right now, bit drunk, but! Im shooting with my olympus 35rc.
Its a shutter priority/manual camera
I've chosen to leave it on A mode.
Does this make me lazy? Incompetent?
No. It means that with the tri x 400 pushed to 800 i will get the shots i want and when i develop them the results will be the way i want.
So
Does shooting in aperture priority make me less of a photographer?
Lazy?
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No but I would say being drunk at a wedding you are shooting makes you unprofessional in my opinion

Unless you are there as a guest?
 
I don't have enough faces or palms for this thread.

Why do people see the word wedding and decide on their stance without reading the posts. It's becoming a pantomime:coat:
 
Phil V said:
I don't have enough faces or palms for this thread.

Why do people see the word wedding and decide on their stance without reading the posts. It's becoming a pantomime:coat:
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I agree.

I shouldn't have bothered to learn how exposure works. I bought a big camera, I didn't realise the green button did it all. :bonk:

Next, shall we discuss Jasmine Star's magazine.:naughty:
 
There's a magazine?!?

I guess I'm lucky being quite cynical - so when these God botherers were being touted all over the US forums I saw them as frauds purely because of the evangelical bo11ox. There's no way I would ever trust someone trying to befriend me by telling me how God would love me to succeed.:cuckoo: If I was going to believe that I'd have a cupboard full of Watchtowers.

And I have a few relatives in the God Bothering profession.:love:
 
joescrivens said:
No but I would say being drunk at a wedding you are shooting makes you unprofessional in my opinion

Unless you are there as a guest?
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Of course i was i guest lol
With a sore head this morning i can tell you! And a roll of nice photos to develop.
Question, if i was say. A pro. Shooting film. If i sent the roll off to the labs (which from talking to most old pros they used to) would you consider that short cut and a cheat, like using an auto feature on digital cameras?
Thinking about this. Does zach save his images straight to disc for his clients because if he is getting the results he desires in manual mode then he won't need any editing, surely?
 
Simon, have you read the blog, are you aware of the background, have you read my posts?

Because it seems to me you've just seen a 'real pros shoot manual' post from someone who doesnt understand real life.

Which is about a million miles away from what's really happened.

Or is this just some elaborate wind up?
 
ding76uk said:
As for the post, I agree. Anyone saying to stick a camera in P mode and shoot weddings is joking! What if the light meter doesn't play ball. Too many people don't know how to shoot manual and have no idea what to do if it all goes wrong in Auto mode.
.
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You seem to have P mode confused with auto there - we arent talking about green square/scene modes where the camera does everything with no creative control

P is like a hybrid of AV and TV - the camera selects both settings, but the photographer can then alter either of them with a quick scroll of the control wheel - you still have to be a decent photographer to make the right selection so its really no different to shoot AV or TV in terms of the skill required.

Personally I usually shoot AV - but i have no problem with other togs chosing to shoot P or TV or M - its the pictures that matter
 
big soft moose said:
Personally I usually shoot AV - but i have no problem with other togs chosing to shoot P or TV or M - its the pictures that matter
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I totally agree! I shoot manual, but that is because the lighting I shoot in needs it. I don't think though that simply knowing how to shoot in P mode is what a professional photographer needs to be told when just starting out in business.

The blog post, yeah it was a rant, but it was a rant that may stop someone throwing hundreds of dollars at a "solution" that really was snake oil. He didn't have to do it, he could have not bothered, some will say he is jealous etc. that he didn't think of it first but, maybe, it is genuinely someone who is peeved because he sees the thing he loves being used as a cash cow.
 
The23rdman said:
#sigh
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Phil V said:
I don't have enough faces or palms for this thread.
Why do people see the word wedding and decide on their stance without reading the posts. It's becoming a pantomime:coat:
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Deano - you've said it all :)

Phil - I think some people just like to argue the toss over anything, some of them Johnny-come-lateleys who think the best way to make an impression on a forum is to argue everything. This attitude is increasingly making me take a step back from this forum....
 
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specialman said:
Deano - you've said it all :)

Phil - I think some people just like to argue the toss over anything, some of them Johnny-come-lateleys who think the best way to make an impression on a forum is to argue everything. This attitude is increasingly making me take a step back from this forum....
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Couldn't agree more with any of that, mate.
 
ding76uk said:
I totally agree! I shoot manual, but that is because the lighting I shoot in needs it. I don't think though that simply knowing how to shoot in P mode is what a professional photographer needs to be told when just starting out in business.
.
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I agree - someone who is taking money for their services needs a full understanding of how apperture, speed and iso relate to each other and how they affect the shot (in addition to an understanding of composition, people skills and a whole bunch of other stuff)

however if having acheived that understanding they choose to shoot in P , or AV or TV, then they are no less a pro than someone who shoots in M.

There is unfortunately a lot of crap talked on both sides of this debate - from people who think that you can shoot a wedding using only scene modes and no understanding of your kit, through to people who make daft generalisations like 'propper pros shoot in M'

My opinion at the end of the day a 'propper pro' uses whatever tools and techniques are appropriate to get the job done - and arguing which setting is 'best' is like the nikon vs canon , or jpeg vs raw etc circular debates - ie pretty much pointless
 
big soft moose said:
I agree - someone who is taking money for their services needs a full understanding of how apperture, speed and iso relate to each other and how they affect the shot (in addition to an understanding of composition, people skills and a whole bunch of other stuff)

however if having acheived that understanding they choose to shoot in P , or AV or TV, then they are no less a pro than someone who shoots in M.

There is unfortunately a lot of crap talked on both sides of this debate - from people who think that you can shoot a wedding using only scene modes and no understanding of your kit, through to people who make daft generalisations like 'propper pros shoot in M'

My opinion at the end of the day a 'propper pro' uses whatever tools and techniques are appropriate to get the job done - and arguing which setting is 'best' is like the nikon vs canon , or jpeg vs raw etc circular debates - ie pretty much pointless
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Peter, the article and debate was never about that though, it was about someone telling people you didn't need to learn. You could just stick it on P an spray and pray.

The biggest joke is that DJ never did shoot in P and he never shot thousands of images and hoped for the best either. He's just selling the idea that it's OK to do it. That's what upset the likes of Zach.
It's not even like its a tried and tested system, he was selling bull.....
 
I read the quote, and then the whole blog post, and cam to the same conclusion as Phil and I know no one in the whole furore.

I don't get why this forums members are getting so het up about one guys annoyance at something. As far as I can see the blog makes a lot of sense.
 
Its just so pompous, peeps chiming in and agreeing with him makes it worse.
If all you want is somebody to agree with him and you by saying they think he's also talking some kind of sense, it should have been posted in business with the rest of the pompous like minded threads.
Here, its gonna get a varied review, with different no less valid points of view, it was never gonna be a mutual agreement thread.
 
I did laugh at a site dedicated to warning people about this system when they said:

"What professional wedding photographer should EVER be forgetting what to do with their camera while shooting possibly the most important day in your life??? *If the surgeon “forgets” what to do with his scalpel"

Also the tip not to bring a lot of gear must have annoyed wedding photographers who usually insist you have thousands of pounds of doubled up equipment as a deterrent to people.
 
This is just the web in a nutshell.

- Bloke posts controversial blog to generate cash for himself.
- Other bloke disagrees (or thinks he can get a pile of hits by disagreeing in a somewhat childish manner) and posts equally controversial blog post to generate cash for himself.
- Bunch of people join in to pick sides and shout about it.
- Actual industry that they're talking about in the real world carries on unaffected.

As for spraying and praying, I'll just quote Trent Parke again, "if you shoot a lot of ****, something's bound to stick". And he ends up with a lot more worthwhile sticky stuff than Zach to my eye. ;)
 
Laudrup said:
Also the tip not to bring a lot of gear must have annoyed wedding photographers who usually insist you have thousands of pounds of doubled up equipment as a deterrent to people.
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that wooshing sound you can hear is the point about having back ups flying over laudrups head

one more time

a) its not about having thousands of pounds worth of gear - its about having the right gear to do the job

b) its not necessary to spend thousands for backups so long as you have something (my back up camera is a 450D)

c) its not necessary to carry lots of kit - id suggest two bodies with a lens and flash gun on each , but it is necessary to have the back up kit within easy reach - like in a peli case locked in the boot of the car

d) the advice given that you must have back ups is not about deterring people - why would an established pro care about detering some walt with an entry level camera and a kit lens entering the business , they are hardly serous competition. The Advice about back ups (and insurance etc) is aimed at stopping people getting themselves into an awful mess and winding up featuring in a daily mail article :bang:
 
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Zack's fast becoming more of a 'name' photographer than a photographer - it's been noticable in the last few years he's been doing more workshops and his blogging is as much about keeping his name out there than anything else.

I agree with some aspects of his blog piece but, to be fair, he does say it's a rant and not to read if you're not interested.
 
big soft moose said:
that wooshing sound you can hear is the point about having back ups flying over laudrups head

one more time

a) its not about having thousands of pounds worth of gear - its about having the right gear to do the job

b) its not necessary to spend thousands for backups so long as you have something (my back up camera is a 450D)

c) its not necessary to carry lots of kit - id suggest two bodies with a lens and flash gun on each , but it is necessary to have the back up kit within easy reach - like in a peli case locked in the boot of the car

d) the advice given that you must have back ups is not about deterring people - why would an established pro care about detering some walt with an entry level camera and a kit lens entering the business , they are hardly serous competition. The Advice about back ups (and insurance etc) is aimed at stopping people getting themselves into an awful mess and winding up featuring in a daily mail article :bang:
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I didn't say you wouldn't need any back up, just not the less than subtle barriers to entry people like to erect. This quote from a site set up to put people off the system is attempting to put people off by telling you:

"There seems to be this idea floating around that photography is easy, that modern technology will allow ANYONE to start firing away blindly, and the results will be magical. It’s simply not true. Doubt it? *Then try it. Buy a professional camera, a decent starter kit will run several thousand dollars"

Not even a good starter kit, only a decent one. In these tough economic times people are probably finding spending £1000+ on a photographer isn't something they can do anymore. Therefore you'll find the gaps being filled by someone who doesn't have a decent starter kit that costs thousands of pounds. If they shoot in P mode and spray and pray and it works then so be it.
 
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