Canon 7d11

[Gazamonk]

I have no idea what the high ISO performance of the 7D mk2 is and neither does anyone else at this stage really. So thats a moot point at the moment. The main point of my reply was partly naughty, just to get Full Frame die hards a little wound up and partly to pour a little scorn at saying you wouldnt want to shoot weddings with a 7D mk2 or it wasnt the right tool for the job. That just smacks a little of snobbery to be honest. Is it the best wedding camera? Probably not but thats subjective to say the least but photographers have been shooting weddings for years with far inferior kit and producing stunning, wonderful shots. The suggestion that it is only capable of doing a good job in the 'right hands' is relevant to ANY camera. Ive seen plenty garbage produced with the best of gear. Ive personally produced plenty of that garbage myself as has everyone else at one time or another.

 

[Canon Bob]

...... It has an AF On button (why the 50D's grip didn't I will never know.) .....

Because the grip existed before the 50D and was designed for the 20D and 30D bodies which didn't have AF-on buttons.

Bob

 

[Gazamonk]

What about the high iso quality? That's the main reason i see people moving to full frame. Not sure why people are thinking the 7Dmk2 will have full frame performance in that regard.

I dont see anyone on here thinking it will. Just people that are glad to see a huge leap (hopefully) in ISO performance over the original 7d which ultimately makes it a much more versatile camera that is more accomplished in many areas over its predecessor and the most advanced crop body Canon have produced.

 

[Michael D Beckwith]

I can see myself getting the 7D MK II after 6+ months when the price comes down considerably. It is far to early to tell how the camera performs in detail, the only shots I have seen are literally a few shots from Matt Granger, though the photographs that he took look more than usable at 6400 ISO. One thing I do like is that the old batteries from the 7D MK I will work in it, which is a bonus.

 

[RedRobin]

the most advanced crop body Canon have produced.

....We each choose our cameras for different uses and reasons and for those of us who prefer to use a crop-sensor body, the 7D Mark II is the current top gun.

At this stage I don't think there's any justification to think it will be a lemon. The listed tech specs alone promise more positives than negatives and photographers such as Tony Northrup who is always very objective in their opinion would also agree.

If we find the 7D II very attractive and we decide we can afford it, then we naturally justify our spending.

If we find the 7D II very attractive but we cannot afford it, then we naturally justify not buying it by looking for reasons not to want it.

If we don't feel that the 7D II is the appropriate horse for our course, then that's easier!

 

[odd jim]

The only advantage of full frame 6D at a wedding would surely be shallower DoF and even then its not a deal breaker. A 7D mk2 with a 17-55 f2.8 or a fast prime would have all the shallow DoF you should need. Bigger sensor? Yes but have you met a bride yet that wanted 8ft by 6 ft prints.

Popcorn at the ready, let the fight begin. lol

The only advantage?

For a start, the DOF is the same. It doesn't change with sensor size. And the 6d has a hugely significant high ISO advantage (we are talking useable, detailed clean shots at well over 10,000 ISO). This will give you shots that simply might not be possible with other bodies, especially if they don't allow flashes, very common these days. A massive advantage over any cropped sensor body! This is easy To see even on mobile phone screens let alone prints and large monitors.

 

[Hazza]

I can't decide whether to pre-order it on finance, or save some money aside and buy it in the spring when hopefully it will be cheaper... Hmmm.

 

[RedRobin]

I can't decide whether to pre-order it on finance, or save some money aside and buy it in the spring when hopefully it will be cheaper... Hmmm.

....I have pre-ordered mine (from Park Cameras) with no deposit nor interest and can cancel my order up until the time it becomes available. So, I'm paying a premium but spreading my repayments. As I think I said earlier in this thread, I'm 67yo and I would rather start using a 7D II asap and sell my 70D body while it's 'younger'.

I don't want to wait until Spring, I want to enjoy my photography even more.

 

[DemiLion]

For a start, the DOF is the same. It doesn't change with sensor size.

Um, it sort of does, actually.

 

[Werecow]

The only advantage?

For a start, the DOF is the same. It doesn't change with sensor size. And the 6d has a hugely significant high ISO advantage (we are talking useable, detailed clean shots at well over 10,000 ISO). This will give you shots that simply might not be possible with other bodies, especially if they don't allow flashes, very common these days. A massive advantage over any cropped sensor body! This is easy To see even on mobile phone screens let alone prints and large monitors.

Dof changes if you have a bigger sensor and then move closer to give the photo the same framing. So in other words the crop sensor camera would be incapable of the same shallower dof at the desired framing of the subject.

If you took the photo from the same place and cropped the larger sensor camera photo to match the framing, the dof would be the same.

Sorry if you knew that, but it's a grey area for many people

 

[odd jim]

Dof changes if you have a bigger sensor and then move closer to give the photo the same framing. So in other words the crop sensor camera would be incapable of the same shallower dof at the desired framing of the subject.

If you took the photo from the same place and cropped the larger sensor camera photo to match the framing, the dof would be the same.

Sorry if you knew that, but it's a grey area for many people

No it doesn't, the physics don't change, you just end up with a larger oof area on the FF sensor as the image field of view is larger. The actual DOF stays the same.

You kind of agreed that in your second paragraph

 

[odd jim]

Um, it sort of does, actually.

It doesn't. The physics stay the same. The crop factor simply changes the image plane.

 

[Gazamonk]

For weddings, you'd naturally choose a 6d. Full frame, great high ISO and low light AF. You wouldn't want a 7d2 for that really.

That's the wrong tool for the job (but would still do a good job in the right hands).

For weddings you'd naturally choose the camera that suits you and your shooting style best, plenty Wedding photographers out there who shoot with crop sensors and older FF bodies with abysmal high ISO performance who would take exception to that.

....the 6d has a hugely significant high ISO advantage (we are talking useable, detailed clean shots at well over 10,000 ISO). This will give you shots that simply might not be possible with other bodies, especially if they don't allow flashes, very common these days. A massive advantage over any cropped sensor body! This is easy To see even on mobile phone screens let alone prints and large monitors.

No doubt the 6D is better above 10,000iso and you clearly love your 6D and shooting weddings may be your bread and butter. That doesnt make the 7Dmk2 unfit for purpose and if you are planning an upgrade path and you already have EF-S lenses its a great upgrade. Just because Canon have a camera that's better (and thats really a matter of personal opinion and also built around a specific purpose for said camera) its no reason to be knocking it down before its even stood up. People will buy there cameras based on there needs and of course to a degree, there existing lens collection.
Im not a Full Frame knocker, I sold my 5D along with some other surplus stuff a few months back and have squirreled the cash away till I could afford a 6D (missed a real bargain recently on the classifieds) because I was so impressed with the Review Shots at high ISO and just about everything else, (I already have a full compliment of EF L lenses for it from my 5D days) but having been an owner in the past of a 7D this new release has given me reason to stand back and reconsider (dual card slots, better AF,10fps versus 4.5). I think the 6D may still be the way I will go (however the aforementioned makes a strong argument for the 7Dmk2), but I am going to wait and see some real world reviews before I jump. So I am not a crop or FF lover or hater but neither am I a Pro who shoots in one specific style. Im an avid enthusaiast (like most of the members I should imagine) and maybe not even a brilliant one at that but I want to have a camera that can tackle just about any situation its asked to and the 7Dmk2 looks like a damned good candidate if you ask me.

 

[odd jim]

I've not knocked a 7d, or any other crop body. I just stated that you wouldn't buy a 7d (1 or 2) as a 'wedding camera' per se (as it was an example given), as the main advantages of the 7d2 would not be relevant for weddings and as such would be wasted. And you incorrectly stated the only advantage of a 6d in that scenario was a shallower DOF which was wrong on a number of counts.

I've shot weddings on both FF and crop bodies, and still do. A 50d and 85mm f/1.8 is an awesome combo! I still own crop bodies as well as FF, and as I said in an earlier post, a good photographer can take excellent wedding images with cropped bodies. My point was about using the best tool for the job. I'd love a 7d2 to add to my setup!

 

[Hazza]

....I have pre-ordered mine (from Park Cameras) with no deposit nor interest and can cancel my order up until the time it becomes available. So, I'm paying a premium but spreading my repayments. As I think I said earlier in this thread, I'm 67yo and I would rather start using a 7D II asap and sell my 70D body while it's 'younger'.

I don't want to wait until Spring, I want to enjoy my photography even more.

That's a fair point, but the airshow season does not start again until next spring... Hmmm...

 

[RedRobin]

That's a fair point, but the airshow season does not start again until next spring... Hmmm...

....Then it makes sense for you to wait and take advantage of any price reduction and also hear what 'real-world' users have to say about the 7D II.

One the other hand [with the devil's hat on] it always takes a little time to become fluent and fluid with something new (a couple of thousand miles in a car, for example) and you want to be ready for that new airshow season.

 

[Hazza]

....Then it makes sense for you to wait and take advantage of any price reduction and also hear what 'real-world' users have to say about the 7D II.

One the other hand [with the devil's hat on] it always takes a little time to become fluent and fluid with something new (a couple of thousand miles in a car, for example) and you want to be ready for that new airshow season.

I'm more interested in the 0% finance as I am useless at saving! Oh decisions!

 

[big soft moose]

For weddings you'd naturally choose the camera that suits you and your shooting style best, plenty Wedding photographers out there who shoot with crop sensors and older FF bodies with abysmal high ISO performance who would take exception to that.
.

I'm one such (though I sometimes hire a 5D3) but I don't take exception to Jim's remark - he's spot on , yes I can shoot a good wedding with a 40D or a 50D (and in the past with a 20D) , but if I was buying a camera specifically for the purpose I wouldn't buy a 7D2 - for that money I'd either get a 6D or a second user 5D2 (or save up a few more quid for a 5D3).

I'd happily have a 7D2 for wildlife , but with the best will in the world if you have £1600 to spend on a wedding camera its not the best plan ... and if you want to shoot both wildlife and weddings i'd say get a 6D for the weddings and spend the remainder on a second user 7D mk1 for wildlife

 

[tdodd]

Prices on the original 7D dropped pretty quickly following launch. From a list price charged to early adopters of £1699 I paid £1499 for mine from Jessops at the beginning of November 2009.Within a week Jessops dropped the price to £1299 and refunded me the difference. I ordered through a cashback website which meant that my net cost was £1167 within about two months of hitting retail. Maybe the 7D2 won't drop as quickly, but sometimes patience pays.

The 7D2 certainly interests me, but I do want more information regarding IQ at all ISO values and I will certainly be waiting until next year if I decide to buy at all. There is rarely a reason to pay full RRP for long.

 

[Werecow]

It doesn't. The physics stay the same. The crop factor simply changes the image plane.

Dof decreases as you get closer to the subject. A bigger sensor you have to get closer to the subject to fill the frame. It is basic lens physics.

 

[odd jim]

Dof decreases as you get closer to the subject. A bigger sensor you have to get closer to the subject to fill the frame. It is basic lens physics.

DOF still stays the same. The point at which the focused field of view ends and blurs stays the same.

Is lens physics different to normal physics ?

 

[odd jim]

This explains it better than I can.

http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/field_reports/full_frame_vs_crop_sensor_-.html

 

[Werecow]

This explains it better than I can.

http://www.have-camera-will-travel.com/field_reports/full_frame_vs_crop_sensor_-.html

thankyou, that exactly explains my point. Then when you move that 5d closer to get the same framing as that 30D comparison photo, you get less dof. I'm not arguing that you intrinsically get less dof from shooting from the same position. I'm saying that you get less dof once you move closer to get exactly the same framing of a subject.
The example you gave has photos taken from the same place, not the same framing of the subject,

 

[Gazamonk]

Again (Pete and Jim) missing the point. My original reason for stating the 7D2 would be a good all rounder was because of its improved ISO capability. If the content of this thread was "Best camera for shooting weddings" then fair enough. My original reply you seem to be taking exception to was in fact, in defence of cameras with good High ISO capabilitys in general because 'Hollis_f ' (and he is entitled to his opinion) couldnt understand why some place so much importance on high ISO usability. Which by the way is the 3 of us, who seem to be are arguing the toss around the same thing we agree on.
Lol How's that for irony.

 

[Jackwow]

Well I will be getting a 7D MkII when it becomes available. It will replace my now 4.5 year old 7D Mk I, which has been a great camera for me. Any improvement in performance at higher ISO's will be much appreciated but it is certainly not a deal breaker as I've never really had much of an issue with the 7D's ISO performance. There are so many other improvements to enjoy plus, after 4.5 years, I just want a new body and I'm sure there will be many many others in the same boat as me.

 

[Mike.P]

That's a fair point, but the airshow season does not start again until next spring... Hmmm...

That and I want a cheaper price and free grip are the reasons I will wait until around May next year.

Whether I can hold out that long is another matter ......

 

[Hazza]

We shall see.. If the first user reviews come out favourable I don't think I'll be able to resist!

 

[odd jim]

thankyou, that exactly explains my point. Then when you move that 5d closer to get the same framing as that 30D comparison photo, you get less dof. I'm not arguing that you intrinsically get less dof from shooting from the same position. I'm saying that you get less dof once you move closer to get exactly the same framing of a subject.
The example you gave has photos taken from the same place, not the same framing of the subject,

No, because DOF is the point the focused area becomes de-focused, which is exactly the same on both bodies.

The FF image simply has a larger area of bokeh because the imaging plane is larger.

That gives the impression of shallower DOF, but the depth of field is the focused area, not the out of focused area, which is the same on both images.

 

[Werecow]

Well I will be getting a 7D MkII when it becomes available. It will replace my now 4.5 year old 7D Mk I. which has been a great camera for me. Any improvement in performance at higher ISO's will be much appreciated but it is certainly not a deal breaker. There are so many other improvements to enjoy plus, after 4.5 years, I just want a new body and I'm sure there will be many many others in the same boat as me.

Same here. The AF sounds amazing on paper. It's got everything i wanted from an upgrade. F8 focussing will be amazing with being able to put a 2x TC on an F4 tele

 

[odd jim]

Again (Pete and Jim) missing the point. My original reason for stating the 7D2 would be a good all rounder was because of its improved ISO capability. If the content of this thread was "Best camera for shooting weddings" then fair enough. My original reply you seem to be taking exception to was in fact, in defence of cameras with good High ISO capabilitys in general because 'Hollis_f ' (and he is entitled to his opinion) couldnt understand why some place so much importance on high ISO usability. Which by the way is the 3 of us, who seem to be are arguing the toss around the same thing we agree on.
Lol How's that for irony.

But this is the internet

 

[Werecow]

No, because DOF is the point the focused area becomes de-focused, which is exactly the same on both bodies.

The FF image simply has a larger area of bokeh because the imaging plane is larger.

That gives the impression of shallower DOF, but the depth of field is the focused area, not the out of focused area, which is the same on both images.

So you are arguing that you don't get less DOF when a subject is closer to the lens now? Sorry but thats basic photography.

I'd HAVE to move the 5D closer to the subject to get the same framing as the 30D on that example you posted. That always results in less DOF with the same lens attached.
This is the part of the crop v full frame comparison that people often don't get, and why i posted it.

 

[odd jim]

So you are arguing that you don't get less DOF when a subject is closer to the lens now? Sorry but thats basic photography.

I'd HAVE to move the 5D closer to the subject to get the same framing as the 30D on that example you posted. That always results in less DOF with the same lens attached.
This is the part of the crop v full frame comparison that people often don't get, and why i posted it.

Same distance, same lens, same aperture, same DOF on both bodies. Forget about framing, that's nothing to do with DOF.

You can't move one body and not the other when talking about DOF comparisons, as distance effects DOF!

 

[bigrob]

I would love to be proved wrong but the fact Canon have hardly mentioned low light performance but instead are making a lot of noise about the new improved multi point af system makes me think that high ISO and dynamic range haven't been improved that much. If it had I'm sure it would be the first thing they shouted about considering the current comparisons between Canon and Sony sensors.

Edit: I also wonder if that's why it is priced a lot lower than was first predicted ... with a decent improvement in DR and noise control they could have easily charged a couple of hundred quid more imo.

Mike au contraire Canon in it's Press Release says and I quote

"Ideal for shooting in challenging lighting conditions ranging from indoor sports to dimly lit weddings, the camera features a standard ISO range of 100–16000 for both still and video (expandable to ISO 51,600). A new 65-point* All Cross-Type AF system with EV -3 sensitivity at the center point helps deliver sharp focus for still photos even in extreme low-light conditions on subjects with limited visible detail."

What is also interesting is that Scott Kelby says it's the best high ISO he has seen on crop sensor and then leaves it at that.

Do we assume from that, that it is better than the 1DIV or better than the 70D or some other camera with a crop sensor. He DOESN'T say which leaves us all wondering

I have also pre-ordered one on 12 months interest free knowing that stock is not due to be available until November. Unless it is far better than the 1DIV I will bail out and cancel.

I presume before the release we will get to see proper samples in challenging lighting conditions - e.g. as I have mentioned - under floodlights with a long lens with a player/s that fill a 3rd of the frame. If I can see that and it's good then woopee I am in.

It would give me more option at matches for that 'extra' reach with the 400. Also early in the season, in good light before the floodlights come on & later in the season it could be great for manager shots with a 400 + a 1.4x extender.

I do agree, that up until now & it was only announced 10 days ago that all the focus (pun intended) has been on it's tracking ability.

 

[Werecow]

Same distance, same lens, same aperture, same DOF on both bodies. Forget about framing, that's nothing to do with DOF.

You can't move one body and not the other when talking about DOF comparisons, as distance effects DOF!

This is what you're not or refusing to get... With the full frame sensor you have the option to or even HAVE to move closer to get the same rule of thirds composition for example. You move closer and you get less dof, simple as that.
This isn't about dof tests, this is about using the camera to get the framing and then less dof SIMPLY because you're closer.

 

[big soft moose]

I'm fairly sure that when they say crop sensor they mean 1.6 crop sensor - they may have forgotten that 1D series has a 1.3 crop

 

[bigrob]

I suspect so as well Ian.

All new sensor or a tweaked 70D sensor?

 

[big soft moose]

Who's ian ?

I'm hoping for new sensor - but i won't be suprised if it turns out to be the one out of the 70D (as the original 7D shared a sensor with the 60D, 600D and 550D )

 

[bigrob]

Who's ian ?

I'm hoping for new sensor - but i won't be suprised if it turns out to be the one out of the 70D (as the original 7D shared a sensor with the 60D, 600D and 550D )

Not a clue.

I think it's the Bulmer's wot dunnit

 

[HoppyUK]

Same distance, same lens, same aperture, same DOF on both bodies. Forget about framing, that's nothing to do with DOF.

You can't move one body and not the other when talking about DOF comparisons, as distance effects DOF!

Framing is very much part of DoF.

The only meaningful comparison to make between FF and APS-C is: same framing, same subject, same distance with focal length adjusted for crop factor. You then have two identical images in terms of framing and perspective, and for DoF to also be the same, the FF camera must use a higher f/number.

The difference is a bit over one stop, calculated by f/number x crop factor. Eg, 50mm f/4 on 1.6x APS-C, delivers the same framing and DoF as 80mm f/6.4 on FF.

 

[Mike.P]

Mike au contraire Canon in it's Press Release says and I quote

"Ideal for shooting in challenging lighting conditions ranging from indoor sports to dimly lit weddings, the camera features a standard ISO range of 100–16000 for both still and video (expandable to ISO 51,600). A new 65-point* All Cross-Type AF system with EV -3 sensitivity at the center point helps deliver sharp focus for still photos even in extreme low-light conditions on subjects with limited visible detail.

Surely all that says is that the camera has an expandable ISO range from 100-51600 and has a EV-3 focus sensitivity for decent low light focusing (which incidental my K-5II has had both for the last 2 years). Still nothing there about ground breaking high ISO performance.

As for best ISO performance he has seen on a crop sensor camera ... well if it has as good (or better) performance than my Pentax then I'm not waiting and I will buy the 7DII on release and most probably sell all my Pentax gear (Just so I can afford the 200-400mm F4 to go with it)

Anyway, as I said I would love to be proved wrong and I hope that it is as good as everyone wants.