Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[swanseamale47]

You realise that when every car is electric, and these problems are a thing of the past you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

I wont be around then. We're running about 5-10% over needed generating capacity now, charging around 33 million cars (the rough number we have now, it'll be a lot higher again in say 10 years) is a non starter, we just dont have the power stations or sources to recharge them.

I have an acquaintance who has an electric car, he's lucky if he gets 60 miles range, all well and good the figures given but he lives in Wales, it's dark wet and cold, with heater, wipers and lights on it hammers the battery. He's on his third car now, the first one had the battery die in a little over over a year, they wanted I think £12k to replace it. The second one he part exed after just under a year (to avoid replacing the battery) and had the fright of his life when they offered him less that a quarter of what he paid for the car new, stating the the cost of batteries made them worth little second hand. His third car is a diesel....
He's now chuffed as he can go on holliday in Devon without stopping overnight both ways on the trip to recharge.

 

[gad-westy]

All porsche 911's? 4 bolts, drop the whole engine out in about 20 mins (along with the rear drive train)

When I said small cars, I meant the sort of thing my mum drives. If she drove a 911, I'd borrow her car more often

 

[Byker28i]

Smart meter, household generation, smart charging and home battery (including a connected EV) are all part of the solution for future of electricity.

Solar only works well for certain conditions. You're allowed 4Kw total, but you never quite get that on the best day. In cloudy conditions you get significantly less. If you add on a 7Kw load (average) per day, pluss offset your household bills, you'll still be drawing from the grid on the poor days, hence the need for smart meters, which might bring in charging restrictions.

Then theres the cost of solar panels, battery storage to add to the inflated price of an EV car?

 

[gad-westy]

See, you know the solutions are ready on the market. It will be developed to enable 7kW in the future, I'm optimistic

I'm currently looking at Tide tariff with a home battery. If I can charge my EV with 5p per kWh, then use home battery to power my house during the expensive evening period, I'll save so much!

Smart meter, household generation, smart charging and home battery (including a connected EV) are all part of the solution for future of electricity.

Also worth mentioning that the Leaf Charging app (and I assume all of the others too) already allow for scheduled charging. So you plug your car in, but it doesn't draw any current until an allotted time. Not true smart charging but it does already allow for making sure charging only occurs off peak. Nice scheduling the car to heat up too whilst it's still plugged into the mains.

 

[Byker28i]

Also worth mentioning that the Leaf Charging app (and I assume all of the others too) already allow for scheduled charging. So you plug your car in, but it doesn't draw any current until an allotted time. Not true smart charging but it does already allow for making sure charging only occurs off peak. Nice scheduling the car to heat up too whilst it's still plugged into the mains.

Yup, which is fine for low mileage (1kw usage per 3 miles, 7Kw charging max household) but if we want to increase battery storage in cars to allow for a greater mileage, to get more polluting cars off the road, then these will need a longer charge time. Reports suggest that as EV cars go over 40% ownership then significant energy management will be required, or investment in infrastructure.

Now this can be offset with personal power generation and storage but thats another big investment.
So assuming you've a 4kw system, most installers say that generates 3400Kw power a year, whilst the average household uses 3000Kw a year, leaving 400kw to either offset the cost or power your vehicle so 1200 Miles based on 3 miles per kw. To do the 8000 miles average you need almost 2700Kw, so unless you have a large array in the back garden this doesn't become cost efficient to do this. It still works if you can store the power and use if to offset peak time power usage/costs but the payback on solar is a long time.

It still means that the longer range cars will need to draw power from the grid.

 

[jamesev]

I wont be around then. We're running about 5-10% over needed generating capacity now, charging around 33 million cars (the rough number we have now, it'll be a lot higher again in say 10 years) is a non starter, we just dont have the power stations or sources to recharge them.

That is very old thinking. You talk about supply side peak generation but very few think about demand side. Why do we power 20 million home fridges and freezers between 01:00 and 04:00. If homes are built with Battery storage and other locally generated power then this can smooth out the peaks in generation requirements which would mean that having a flat baseload could suffice which is much easier to manage

Its all doable it just needs a mindset change away from traditional living. think back 30 years how many homes had computers. top end 2 litre cars put out 150BHP you can get that out of a 1.4 now.

 

[gad-westy]

Yup, which is fine for low mileage (1kw usage per 3 miles, 7Kw charging max household) but if we want to increase battery storage in cars to allow for a greater mileage, to get more polluting cars off the road, then these will need a longer charge time. Reports suggest that as EV cars go over 40% ownership then significant energy management will be required, or investment in infrastructure.

Now this can be offset with personal power generation and storage but thats another big investment.
So assuming you've a 4kw system, most installers say that generates 3400Kw power a year, whilst the average household uses 3000Kw a year, leaving 400kw to either offset the cost or power your vehicle so 1200 Miles based on 3 miles per kw. To do the 8000 miles average you need almost 2700Kw, so unless you have a large array in the back garden this doesn't become cost efficient to do this. It still works if you can store the power and use if to offset peak time power usage/costs but the payback on solar is a long time.

It still means that the longer range cars will need to draw power from the grid.

Yes, admittedly I was very much talking about the here and now rather than what is coming. One way or another though, I think the infrastructure, routines and general culture around car usage is going to change a lot over the coming years. Maybe high mileage users will invest in home storage. It might just become the norm. Maybe we'll be doing fewer miles and working and shopping from home more. I'm not sure but I would be very surprised if we ever faced a situation where the purchasing of EV's has out paced the support structure around them. I think the demand for EV's is going to be driven by the support for them to a large extent. So I can see the need for investment and innovation but I don't think we're actually going to face real problems. We tend to project demand issues based on increased EV usage over a long period but rarely make allowance for just how much development is going on in terms of the grid and the management/distribution of power and other innovations. Even in the glacial world that our National Grid works in, there is a lot of time to get everything in place.

 

[onomatopoeia]

It may not be new but it is far from the norm. I can only think of the Smart and Twingo of the current small car offerings. Cars are all about platform sharing now and most platforms don't really allow for RWD, let alone rear/mid engine. Would be interesting to see how different manufacturers approach this without the normal constraints.

Imp by any chance?

Yes, though I also have a VW Caravelle (aka "type 25") which is rear engine, four wheel drive. And a mid engine, rear wheel drive two seater which is my daily driver.

 

[Mr Bump]

That is very old thinking. You talk about supply side peak generation but very few think about demand side. Why do we power 20 million home fridges and freezers between 01:00 and 04:00. If homes are built with Battery storage and other locally generated power then this can smooth out the peaks in generation requirements which would mean that having a flat baseload could suffice which is much easier to manage

Its all doable it just needs a mindset change away from traditional living. think back 30 years how many homes had computers. top end 2 litre cars put out 150BHP you can get that out of a 1.4 now.

Yep you have to remember you are up against a bunch of luddites on here with loads of money and don't live in inner city highly polluted arears and have nice big gas gusslers in the drive.

they don't want change its for those greens not them.

 

[jamesev]

Yes, though I also have a VW Caravelle (aka "type 25") which is rear engine, four wheel drive. And a mid engine, rear wheel drive two seater which is my daily driver.

https://www.slideshare.net/PodPoint/5-barriers-to-electric-vehicle-adoption/5

Current EV availability

 

[onomatopoeia]

Then why isn't it done on all cars? Is it because of the limited access area to service the high maintenance ICE?

Why are most EV designed from ground up and produced in dedicated factory dual motor, 4 wheel drives?

Why are there not a lot of dual ICE cars on the market? Is it because they are too big?

With service intervals of up to two years / 24000 miles on many modern cars, "high maintenance" is inaccurate. My car is 18 years old and has done 126,000 miles. The engine has never been out. The transaxle has been unbolted and retracted once, for a new clutch at 98,000 miles. It's still putting out at least 98% of the power it had when it was new, despite all that use.

Dual ICE makes zero sense in pretty much every conventional usage case. If 4wd is wanted, a transfer box is a much simpler, lighter and more compact solution - since people have been evangelizing the compactness of EV powertrains, it is unclear why you would suggest a larger, heavier solution in a ICE powered vehicle.

 

[Byker28i]

Yep you have to remember you are up against a bunch of luddites on here with loads of money and don't live in inner city highly polluted arears and have nice big gas gusslers in the drive.

they don't want change its for those greens not them.

Nope - what I've said is currently EV vehicles make sense for city/town areas with low mileage journeys, especially with traffic queues.
I've also said constantly how I'm interested in EV as a great mix of performance and economy but that there are certain limitations at the moment extending EV's past the small local journeys.

It seems that for some EV evangelists, if you try to have a reasonable discussion around the subject, possible future solutions to reduce the number of polluting vehicles on the roads, that makes you a luddite

 

[Byker28i]

Oh and loads of money - I'd have a Tesla right now! The cost of EV's is one of the limiting factors

 

[Overexposed]

Yep you have to remember you are up against a bunch of luddites on here with loads of money and don't live in inner city highly polluted arears and have nice big gas gusslers in the drive.

they don't want change its for those greens not them.

To call people Luddites because they wont adopt something that won't work for them is both crass and pompous. Why would anyone adopt an EV if the vehicles not right for their purpose,if there's no charging infrastructure and the range is insufficient. The highly polluted cities are down to those driving into them and firstly they need to change their habits as they are the problem and maybe the solution is to ban ICE in cities. If EV soles the problem there then it can be rolled out through infrastructure changes across the less populated areas. Given your somewhat jaundiced view perhaps everyone outside the cities should be riding horses rather than a 4x4 ? Not everyone drives a Gas Guzzler

 

[Byker28i]

My motorbike was 14 years old, 95K miles, engine never been apart, only bits swapped were consumables or new brake calipers. Happily doing 45mpg and great performance, right up until the moment it was written off last year.

Dual ICE is pointless. For an EV it makes sense to get the motors small and drive each wheel

 

[onomatopoeia]

https://www.slideshare.net/PodPoint/5-barriers-to-electric-vehicle-adoption/5

Current EV availability

I can't read that, it's too small.

I could buy an EV for commuting, but I already have a car I like and have no intention of changing it. I'm not a person that needs to have a nearly new (under six years old is "nearly new") vehicle on my drive to impress the neighbours, my car is 18 years old and I've owned it for 14 of those, so why would I splash a massive wedge of cash?

If I could buy a new eTwingo (made up name as there is no electric Twingo) for the same price as the current basic Twingo (£9,995), it's likely I would. I can't. What small EVs cost under £10k new? I'm not getting involved in battery leasing as the battery leases cost is more than I spend on commuting fuel so where's the sense, so it needs to be an outright purchase. Electric motors are much simpler than ICEs, far fewer moving parts in an EV than one powered by an ICE we keep being told, so why the cost, even when the batteries are not bought with the car?

 

[wyx087]

Yup, which is fine for low mileage (1kw usage per 3 miles, 7Kw charging max household) but if we want to increase battery storage in cars to allow for a greater mileage, to get more polluting cars off the road, then these will need a longer charge time. Reports suggest that as EV cars go over 40% ownership then significant energy management will be required, or investment in infrastructure.

Now this can be offset with personal power generation and storage but thats another big investment.
So assuming you've a 4kw system, most installers say that generates 3400Kw power a year, whilst the average household uses 3000Kw a year, leaving 400kw to either offset the cost or power your vehicle so 1200 Miles based on 3 miles per kw. To do the 8000 miles average you need almost 2700Kw, so unless you have a large array in the back garden this doesn't become cost efficient to do this. It still works if you can store the power and use if to offset peak time power usage/costs but the payback on solar is a long time.

It still means that the longer range cars will need to draw power from the grid.

So based on your calculation you are producing 3.4GWh of energy a year, in total using 5.7GWh with an EV. Meaning a household used to use 3GWh of electricity now uses 2.3GWh of electricity by going EV + solar + storage. The storage (V2G EV or home battery) can also store during cheap less demanding periods and supply household or even neighbours during high demand periods.

So less overall demand and can be zero peak demand on the grid....... or am I missing something here?

With service intervals of up to two years / 24000 miles on many modern cars, "high maintenance" is inaccurate. My car is 18 years old and has done 126,000 miles. The engine has never been out. The transaxle has been unbolted and retracted once, for a new clutch at 98,000 miles. It's still putting out at least 98% of the power it had when it was new, despite all that use.

Dual ICE makes zero sense in pretty much every conventional usage case. If 4wd is wanted, a transfer box is a much simpler, lighter and more compact solution - since people have been evangelizing the compactness of EV powertrains, it is unclear why you would suggest a larger, heavier solution in a ICE powered vehicle.

How much was your new clutch? What was the total maintenance cost of your 18 year old car including ALL consumables and oil changes?

There are no yearly consumables in an EV powertrain. DPF replacement costs are going to be similar to battery cell replacement costs (when the service becomes available). The whole battery doesn't have to be changed in one go.

How much would a transfer box oil change cost? How much complexity does it add? How much maintenance does it add? Does it rob engine power? Does it reduce your car efficiency?
Added weight of Skoda Octavia Estate 4x4 vs standard: 1415-1300 = 115kg. (https://www.parkers.co.uk/skoda/oct...-klement-20-tdi-150ps-4x4-(0317-on)-5d/specs/)
Added weight of a whole new motor in Tesla between 75 and 75D: 90kg. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S)

It seems that for some EV evangelists, if you try to have a reasonable discussion around the subject, possible future solutions to reduce the number of polluting vehicles on the roads, that makes you a luddite

Not if your facts are correct There are posts I've previously quoted that are flat out lies.

 

[MatBin]

I havent read all of this thread, just dipped in and out occasionally.
My wife and I have 2 cars (plus I have a motorbike too), my car, a 2.0 diesel purchased 4 yrs ago and now 6 yrs old is our 'main' car and used on weekends together or longer journeys and I cant see me replacing it for an EV in the near future, I'll explain why later.
My wife's car a 2.0 petrol which we have had for 4 yrs and is 7 yrs old now, albeit with 31K miles on it and the lease is about to end, so it would make "sense" to swap it out for an EV as my wife does 44 miles per week (or so the BM dealer tells us) but we wont be swapping that out either and I'll explain that reason too.

1) My car - as the main car I need something that has a decent range, currently about 400 miles on an easily replenished energy store (the fuel tank), we often go to my son's house, 30 miles away and then drive around his area taking our grandson to places or accompanying my son, his wife and their 2 kids to local attractions, obviously we cant go in their car. So I need something that will do 100 miles in one go without needing a recharge or where I am concerned that having not charged it up last night I may not have enough range for impromptu days out. Or we may go down to my daughter's house 65 miles away, again maybe travelling around for teh same reasons when at her place, so an EV with a limited range isnt an option in my view. Neither do I want the hassle of having to constantly plug in cables as soon as I get home to make sure I have enough charge all the time, I want a car not an Iphone.
Additionally I am not going to buy/lease/rent something that technology will render nearly obsolete in say 5 years and be worthless and I havent even got started on the true 'cost' of those batteries in terms of green credentials.

2) My wife should get an EV, please find me one that is attractive, not form a range/cost point of view but from an aesthetic point of view, why are they all so damn ugly (I8 and Tesla excepted, but then only one of them is a true EV and that isnt a runaround). She simply hates the looks of all the current EV's, do they really have to be that ugly. That's if I can persuade her a range of 100 miles is more than enough given her usual weekly mileage.

Now, it may be our arguments are flawed, but it's our money so it's our choice and I suspect we are in no way alone with our views and until those unfounded prejudices are resolved mass ownership of EV's is a non starter and that's before we even start on getting the appropriate infrastructure in place argument. I have lived through fuel shortages and believe me it isnt a pretty sight.

Matt

 

[Mr Bump]

@MatBin Electric Motorbike?

 

[Overexposed]

Not if your facts are correct There are posts I've previously quoted that are flat out lies.

Most of the 'facts' you have posted are pure supposition and estimation because what you support so vehemently is such new technology and hasn't had the benefit of time to be tested. Your claims about battery life are frankly ludicrous, untested and at best a guess. ICE running costs are well known and documented and they have getting more and more efficient due to the emissions legislation. EV will get better too, but the clsaim you have for the first generation vehicles just don't stand up for general usage. What suits you doesn't suit the rest of the population, if it did the uptake would be far greater.

 

[Byker28i]

I can't read that, it's too small.

I could buy an EV for commuting, but I already have a car I like and have no intention of changing it. I'm not a person that needs to have a nearly new (under six years old is "nearly new") vehicle on my drive to impress the neighbours, my car is 18 years old and I've owned it for 14 of those, so why would I splash a massive wedge of cash?

If I could buy a new eTwingo (made up name as there is no electric Twingo) for the same price as the current basic Twingo (£9,995), it's likely I would. I can't. What small EVs cost under £10k new? I'm not getting involved in battery leasing as the battery leases cost is more than I spend on commuting fuel so where's the sense, so it needs to be an outright purchase. Electric motors are much simpler than ICEs, far fewer moving parts in an EV than one powered by an ICE we keep being told, so why the cost, even when the batteries are not bought with the car?

It's a slide put around by Pod-Point - EV charging company trying to justify what the reasons put forward against EV are wrong, but simplistically ignore the range/cost.

The incentive for me is to cut the commuting cost, but I'd need something that could comfortably do real motorway speeds, with decent range, not crawl at 60mph for best battery usage, or be heading towards top speed at 70mph.


It's not cost effective for me to change the MX-5 yet, I can't make the figures work. £30K+ for a new leaf is silly money, a 30Kw one year old car is £17-18K.

As an example:
At the moment I'm using the wifes MX-5 for the short commute of 60 miles, worth about £8k, 30mpg, so 2 Gallons a day, about £50 a week, £200 per month. Any longer journeys and I use the Mazda 6 diesel, 45Mpg+, but then work pays the mileage so it's free
When I borrowed a leaf and commuted to work it was about £4 a night for the charge. Assuming I bought the car with the battery, had no mileage restrictions/costs I'd save about £6 a day with EV costs over petrol. 250 working days a year means it's a 6-8 year period to pay off the difference for buying a 1-2 year old EV car, ignoring any other costs for simplicity.

On my motorway commute cycle you sat the leaf at 60-65mph in the inside lane for best battery usage and where it felt happiest, with the occasional squirt to pull out into the faster traffic and overtake the lorries. But it didn't have much pull at that point so with the speed of approaching traffic you either got stuck, or inconvenienced someone, headlights flashing the usual result.
If I tried to keep up with the flow of traffic which was slightly faster then it was running out of steam and the battery usage increased significantly. I bottled it and topped the battery up at work the day I did it.

It was weird having limited noise, but radio 4 on the commute was easy listening because of this.

So I could make it work, but it would be boring driving and only works for that specific commute. My wife could use it for some of her local journeys, off to the parents once a day, but the dog wouldn't go in the boot, size/shape and the lip.

Now if I win the lottery... In real terms I need to wait a couple more years for technology/manufacturers to catch up with my needs. Meantime I've negotiated working from home sometimes.

 

[Byker28i]

@MatBin Electric Motorbike?

There's quite a few around now. Lots of city commuters, but Top Gear had two electric dirt bikes on last weekend.
Alta Motors

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhRARmCTtAw


The new Rimac C_Two was unveiled at the Geneva motor show claiming it's "Richard Hammond proof" thanks to a stylish mini fire extinguisher fitted in the rear engine bay.
And to top it off, the addition is held in place by a leather strap engraved with the words: "In case of hill climb, extinguish fire".

 

[Byker28i]

So based on your calculation you are producing 3.4GWh of energy a year, in total using 5.7GWh with an EV. Meaning a household used to use 3GWh of electricity now uses 2.3GWh of electricity by going EV + solar + storage. The storage (V2G EV or home battery) can also store during cheap less demanding periods and supply household or even neighbours during high demand periods.

So less overall demand and can be zero peak demand on the grid....... or am I missing something here?

Correct, Your using 700Kw less per year, could be more could be less. But how much did that solar installation and storage cost? The payback at that rate will also take years, it's around 12.5p per Kw so less than £90 a year

Tell you what though - if you do tiny mileage, get an EV car with a big battery in it - use that as your solar storage, just need a way to get it out into the house power as well as in

 

[wyx087]

Most of the 'facts' you have posted are pure supposition and estimation because what you support so vehemently is such new technology and hasn't had the benefit of time to be tested. Your claims about battery life are frankly ludicrous, untested and at best a guess. ICE running costs are well known and documented and they have getting more and more efficient due to the emissions legislation. EV will get better too, but the clsaim you have for the first generation vehicles just don't stand up for general usage. What suits you doesn't suit the rest of the population, if it did the uptake would be far greater.

So you are not prepared to accept the stats gathered by this post here?

Evidence from Leaf owners stats gathering thread (https://speakev.com/threads/the-battery-health-thread.18923/) predicts 80% after 6 years.

No where did I say everyone must buy an EV and many times I've pointed out their short comings. But first generation EV are very suitable for most people who are only doing 30 miles daily trips and can afford to have 2 cars on the driveway.

ICE running costs are high. People say they've only had clutch done after 20 years or zero breakdowns. They are forgetting the fuel and yearly servicing costs. EV are expensive to buy, but they are so, so cheap to run. Overall, the ownership cost of two types of vehicle is currently similar.

Then, this is where second hand first-gen EV comes in. For the same price as a supermini, as long as the range suits your need, a car like Leaf is just so much cheaper.



Currently, there seems to be an inflated price on 30kWh Leaf's. They seems more suitable to long distance driving than 40kWh. 40kWh rapid charging speed slows down on 2nd successive charge. The chemistry isn't as optimised as 30kWh. Nissan is demanding silly money for the new Leaf as it is recently launched. So demand for 30kWh has driven up their prices. They were 15k when I was looking Sep/Oct last year.

 

[Byker28i]

meanwhile at wuyanxu's house

 

[Byker28i]

Can I just say, I know thats a render, but isn't that a stupid place for a charging point on the car, that cable which has been all over the floor is now over the paintwork

 

[wyx087]

Correct, Your using 700Kw less per year, could be more could be less. But how much did that solar installation and storage cost? The payback at that rate will also take years, it's around 12.5p per Kw so less than £90 a year

Tell you what though - if you do tiny mileage, get an EV car with a big battery in it - use that as your solar storage, just need a way to get it out into the house power as well as in

Solar and storage install should cost around £8k now. Car charging and discharging system is still not ready yet unfortunately, so can't put a cost on this. The payback isn't as simple as 12.5p per kWh (if you work in this field, you really should know difference between kW and kWh). When the tech is ready, you can then save a lot of money by banking cheap electricity to use during peak periods, or even sell a tiny bit back to the grid. Or even get paid by the grid to take excess in ms periods. The possibilities are endless

The connected EV battery was my original plan, 24kWh is more than enough. But it seems I jumped in too early. My wife works from home. My idea was to have the EV always connected as house battery and maintain 50-80% charge depend on house electricity demand. If she needs the car, it still has enough range for her local trips. Just disconnect and go.

(as your rendered photo shows)
My wife actually really like that retro-looking Honda EV. Much better looking than the Leaf

 

[Overexposed]

So you are not prepared to accept the stats gathered by this post here?

QUOTE]
They are not Stats they are predictions!
Evidence from Leaf owners stats gathering thread (https://speakev.com/threads/the-battery-health-thread.18923/) predicts 80% after 6 years.

 

[srichards]

The Honda Urban concept and Sport concept are the best looking EVs I've seen in ages.

 

[Byker28i]

Interesting report here on how clean modern diesel engines are - released today
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/en...s-as-clean-as-petrol-says-emissions-analytics

 

[Byker28i]

The Honda Urban concept and Sport concept are the best looking EVs I've seen in ages.

bit like a mini on steroids thats then stopped an put on weight Allegedly going on sale next year
But the Kia soul tried to look like that

 

[ianp5a]

Something that is worth noting about this thread. The way this discussion has gone shows how far things are progressing. With EVs and the way ahead being in more people's conciousness than even a year ago.

It might even be something for those "never in my lifetime" types that you get on TP to learn from. And that change is slowly happening all the time. And that 2040 is not going to be just the same as now, but with a new season of The Grand Tour on TV. Almost nobody will be driving a diesel or petrol car. Not even Jeremy Clarkson.

 

[Byker28i]

My wife actually really like that retro-looking Honda EV. Much better looking than the Leaf

The new leaf is much better looking than the old

 

[Byker28i]

Something that is worth noting about this thread. The way this discussion has gone shows how far things are progressing. With EVs and the way ahead being in more people's conciousness than even a year ago.

It might even be something for those "never in my lifetime" types that you get on TP to learn from. And that change is slowly happening all the time. And that 2040 is not going to be just the same as now, but with a new season of The Grand Tour on TV. Almost nobody will be driving a diesel or petrol car. Not even Jeremy Clarkson.

Clarkson in 2016 picked the BMW i8 instead of the M3

 

[Byker28i]

Solar and storage install should cost around £8k now.

£10-12K for a 4Kw setup with decent 4kw storage battery. You wouldn't just want a 2Kw battery, which the cheap systems have.
But then for £6k you can get the 14Kw tesla powerwall. Seeing as the 4 and 6Kw batteries are around £4K thats got to be the way to go.

OK so I need a lottery win before I can go EV as thats £14K on top of the car for the solar panel and storage

 

[wyx087]

They are not Stats they are predictions!

You haven't opened the link and looked at the graph have you? I've attached the file for you.

Data collected from forum members show all except 1 2013 or later (aka gen 2) health to be above 85%. Most beyond 2 year old gen 2 are near 90% mark.


For longer term, there's also this stat for Tesla aging, where majority hover at 95% mark: https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/tesla-battery-degradation/

Either way, degradation is not a problem. Battery doesn't just die.

 

[Tringa]

The problem with electric cars is we want (and I include myself here) one that will give us what we get from petrol/diesel car - range of a good few hundred miles between charging, irrespective of using lights, air con etc (I know air con uses fuel but it is relative minor), charging in minutes (ie less than ten minutes), similar cost to buy, similar resale value, and similar performance.

I don't know if we will ever get all of these, though it seems only a few years ago that the performance of Tesla car would have been unthinkable, and we might well have to change our view.

I'm not against electric cars, far from it, but I think it will be a while before they adopted by the majority.

Dave

 

[wyx087]

£10-12K for a 4Kw setup with decent 4kw storage battery. You wouldn't just want a 2Kw battery, which the cheap systems have.
But then for £6k you can get the 14Kw tesla powerwall. Seeing as the 4 and 6Kw batteries are around £4K thats got to be the way to go.

OK so I need a lottery win before I can go EV as thats £14K on top of the car for the solar panel and storage

Only if you want to help the grid.

When smart home storage tech is almost mature, and the grid is feeling EV charging pressure, there will be incentives. There isn't enough EV to make a dent yet, besides, most EV are charged overnight, when there is less overall demand.

 

[gad-westy]

The problem with electric cars is we want (and I include myself here) one that will give us what we get from petrol/diesel car - range of a good few hundred miles between charging, irrespective of using lights, air con etc (I know air con uses fuel but it is relative minor), charging in minutes (ie less than ten minutes), similar cost to buy, similar resale value, and similar performance.

I don't know if we will ever get all of these, though it seems only a few years ago that the performance of Tesla car would have been unthinkable, and we might well have to change our view.

I'm not against electric cars, far from it, but I think it will be a while before they adopted by the majority.

Dave

Yep, there are definitely some psychological barriers to overcome, and real ones for that matter.

I will say this though, you start to forgive many of the short comings when you never have to visit a petrol station again and waft around in silence. They're not perfect by any means but they're so easy to live with. It's quite nice making journey's and literally not having to give the cost of doing so even a moments thought. Like I say, not for everyone but it's worth mentioning some up sides.

 

[Byker28i]

Only if you want to help the grid.

When smart home storage tech is almost mature, and the grid is feeling EV charging pressure, there will be incentives. There isn't enough EV to make a dent yet, besides, most EV are charged overnight, when there is less overall demand.

At the moment, but you do have these simplistic views.
You point links to graphs showing how EV ownership is going to rise exponentially over the next 5 years, then say this won't cause any issue with demand, and anyway everyone can have a solar setup, but ignore the capabilities of these in relation to the requirements of the vehicle. 4Kw on your roof, backed by a 4Kw battery give you a maximum of 25 miles range

Businesses are looking at the potential issues and are planning accordingly, owners have to recognise this as well. Same as when electricity goes up because EV's are putting a dent in fuel duty revenue.

Can't wait for a few years time, hopefully it'll all be sorted out then. Economy, range, performance would be a winning combination.