EU Immigrants to the UK add more to the economy than they take out

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ChasG said:
Yes I can still speak to the 350M BUT I cannot then go to work in Spain, France or Germany.
Logically if I wanted to be able to speak to the largest number of people, and therefore be more likely to gain employment, I should learn Chinese followed by Spanish.
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Ok, I get you. There is nothing stopping you from learning all those languages though is there? The example i used of the Polish girl I work with, she speaks English fluently, German fluently, and Spanish fluently. Shes taken it upon herself to do this to give her and her family the best possiible life away from her native Country.
 
Anyway, im off for a little while to go and pick up my daughter from our British child-minder ;)
 
Nikon_Nick said:
Ok, so how do you propose we encourge the people into work that dont want to work? Dont just say "Stop their benefits", as we all know that a government will not actively seek to make people homeless.

From your second point there, it appears you are still missing (ignoring) the point already made numerous times. You interview 2 candidiates, one is British and one is French (for example). As an employer, you will always/should always hire the one that is better qualified for the role. Why should it matter where they are from. Like it or not, as long as we are all part of the EU, and are free to move aound an work as much as we are able, this is the way it will always be.
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Reduce benefits although I see nothing wrong with putting those who actively seek not to work out of food/home.

We won't always be in the EU for too much longer. I'm only stating opinions in this thread and once we're out of Europe we can control our borders more making it easier for employers to pick British people and harder to pick non British people.
 
Australia has one of the highest immigrant populations in the westen world.
 
what we tend to forget in this country is that while in general most britons are not openly racist (some will always be) and things have most definitely moved on from the 40's 50's 60's etc .the majority of children educated here after that period had anti-racism drummed into them by teachers mainly recruited from adverts in the independent etc .and they did a thorough job to ,that makes us a country to be envied on that score .

however the immigrants who have taken a lot of jobs from us have no such allusions and i have heard of cases where its a early arriver from XYZ now in charge of hiring will only hire workers from there own country .or take the case of the polish shops that are springing up in every high street ,how many english speaking,born and bred here shop workers do they employ ,one local one here even had a sign up we DONT SERVE english people ,they were forced to take it down but it happens .

i live by the old adage of when in rome ,and if someone wants to come here and become british thats fantastic ,but we are not and can not allow ourselves or our country to be turned into to suburbs of warsaw ,lahore ,damascus or anywhere else on the planet its not right ,and its definitely not british
 
essexash said:
so is this all immigrants then? how much are the thousands over in Calais, the one having to hide under lorries and in peoples car boots, going to contribute? What worthwhile role will they play? Apart from a strong grip, which im sure is useful for holding on to the free papers they hand out on corners and the sponges used in supermarket car park car washes, i struggle to see what they contribute?

Or could this just be the spin machine starting to wind up from Cameron.
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I doubt many of the illegal immigrants currently in Calais come from any EU country, which is what the report in the OP is about ;).
 
yeah they did pick and choose a little in the report didnt they. Totally unbiased ;)
 
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neil_g said:
somewhere, steves head just exploded.
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I was just thinking that this would confuse all of the Daily Mail readers and make them explode.

Just like in one of the original episodes of Star Trek where Kirk confuses a robot by convincing it that it is imperfect and therefore has to destroy itself.

Dave1 said:
I doubt many of the illegal immigrants currently in Calais come from any EU country, which is what the report in the OP is about
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But illegal immigrants cannot claim benefits.


Steve.
 
ST4 said:
Points based. They keep a lot of undesirable sorts out.
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Whatever their immigration system, Austrailia fills a much higher percentage of its posts with immigrants than the UK does.

Yes, does fill posts maily with Aussies, the same as the UK still fills posts mainly with Brits.
 
Steve Smith said:
So can anyone.


Steve.
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So, why let in more people and not actively seek to obstruct these people coming in illegally. Hiding in lorries, storming ferries, cutting fences to get on the trains. We have enough crims of our own, why let ones who will stop at nothing to get here come here. Armed gaurds at all the Ferry crossings to prevent with any means neccessary people coming here illegally.

How can a British born person work illegally in Britain?
 
ST4 said:
How can a British born person work illegally in Britain?
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If they're claiming benefits and not declaring it?
 
Not if you go round the other cape...
 
ST4 said:
How can a British born person work illegally in Britain?
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Not paying tax or National Insurance, not being qualified, exceeding driving hours, being paid below minimium wage, etc.


Steve.
 
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Dave1 said:
I doubt many of the illegal immigrants currently in Calais come from any EU country, which is what the report in the OP is about ;).
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Yep, sorry maybe I should have been clearer. We're talking about the EU 'immigrants' as opposed to the illegal sorts which of course shouldn't be allowed into the country unless fleeing persecution etc (in which case France is safe!)

What winds me up is how the press, politicians and of course UKIP are so biased at the moment. The simple fact is that EU immigration has been an overall benefit to the UK. Yes, some of those jobs could have been filled by Brits. I'm sure. But taken as a whole these 'immigrants' are contributing more than they're taking out.

The narrative of course is:

Immigration is out of control and costing us a fortune - False (see original link)

We've allowed too many immigrants from the EU and only by leaving the EU can we control our borders again. Again False. In fact "...estimates that suggest there are 2.3m Europeans living in the UK - and up to 2.2m British citizens living in Europe." Wait wait.....so actually. 2.3m came....and 2.2m left. So we're arguing over 100k increase out of a population of 60million? A 0.16% increase!?!?! [source]

I love the fact that the idiot Tories have delayed the report and sent it back several times because the facts didn't fit in with the story they wanted to tell. And despite several redrafts to make things less positive, they've had to admit "The effects are largely positive"

Oh and quote from the Guardian:
The study, the Fiscal Impact of Immigration to the UK, published in the Economic Journal, reveals that more than 60% of new migrants from western and southern Europe are now university graduates. The educational levels of east Europeans who come to Britain are also improving with 25% of recent arrivals having completed a degree compared with 24% of the UK-born workforce.
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So basically we're supposed to be against clever and educated people coming to the UK to work & pay taxes?? Seriously? Surely we should be welcoming educated and driven people to our shores??

I'm not trying to say UK workers don't want to work. I've seen many who work bloody hard. But being pro immigration doesn't mean we are saying UK workers are idle. The vast majority of immigrants stay in the South East and if it was such a bad thing, why is London economically doing so well??? Far better than the rest of the country in fact?
 
The long term problem lie at the at the bottom of the market low pay work,if we rely on immigrants to do this work then we turn round and get rid of them all,who fills those jobs, because most UK citizen will want an living wage,and should expect one.

Or are we ready to return the gap between the poorest and the riches growing every year,and the problems that can bring ?
 
Nikon_Nick said:
From your second point there, it appears you are still missing (ignoring) the point already made numerous times. You interview 2 candidiates, one is British and one is French (for example). As an employer, you will always/should always hire the one that is better qualified for the role. Why should it matter where they are from. Like it or not, as long as we are all part of the EU, and are free to move aound an work as much as we are able, this is the way it will always be.
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Exactly. You have 2 candidates, let's say they're equally qualified and equally keen to work. As an employer you would/should always choose the native speaker rather than the Polish bloke whose just arrived and can barely speak English. It just makes sense doesn't it? Easier communication equals more productive employee.

Yet time & time again we see the Pole get hired.

My wife's from Eastern Europe. She started out working bizarre shifts at factories doing the exact type of menial jobs frowned upon by many natives. Yet now she's a shift manager at a local care company. Part of her job is to interview new staff and she despairs at the amount of people who send their CV and when invited for an interview they call up and ask if they HAVE to come. Can they not just pretend they did since they only applied because the Job Centre made them! :punch: This isnt a one off, it's a regular occurance. Not to mention those who simply just don't turn up.
 
gadgeteer said:
Yep, sorry maybe I should have been clearer. We're talking about the EU 'immigrants' as opposed to the illegal sorts which of course shouldn't be allowed into the country unless fleeing persecution etc (in which case France is safe!)

What winds me up is how the press, politicians and of course UKIP are so biased at the moment. The simple fact is that EU immigration has been an overall benefit to the UK. Yes, some of those jobs could have been filled by Brits. I'm sure. But taken as a whole these 'immigrants' are contributing more than they're taking out.

The narrative of course is:

Immigration is out of control and costing us a fortune - False (see original link)

We've allowed too many immigrants from the EU and only by leaving the EU can we control our borders again. Again False. In fact "...estimates that suggest there are 2.3m Europeans living in the UK - and up to 2.2m British citizens living in Europe." Wait wait.....so actually. 2.3m came....and 2.2m left. So we're arguing over 100k increase out of a population of 60million? A 0.16% increase!?!?! [source]

I love the fact that the idiot Tories have delayed the report and sent it back several times because the facts didn't fit in with the story they wanted to tell. And despite several redrafts to make things less positive, they've had to admit "The effects are largely positive"

Oh and quote from the Guardian:


So basically we're supposed to be against clever and educated people coming to the UK to work & pay taxes?? Seriously? Surely we should be welcoming educated and driven people to our shores??

I'm not trying to say UK workers don't want to work. I've seen many who work bloody hard. But being pro immigration doesn't mean we are saying UK workers are idle. The vast majority of immigrants stay in the South East and if it was such a bad thing, why is London economically doing so well??? Far better than the rest of the country in fact?
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This country is a honey trap, add up the populations of the EU states excl the UK and then see how much larger it is. Per head/uk population we see a lot more immigration of EU people into britain than we export. Why is that?

There are many capable people here, not all are the way your wife describes. Many have good work ethics. This is not a nation of delinquents.
 
gadgeteer said:
Exactly. You have 2 candidates, let's say they're equally qualified and equally keen to work. As an employer you would/should always choose the native speaker rather than the Polish bloke whose just arrived and can barely speak English. It just makes sense doesn't it? Easier communication equals more productive employee.

Yet time & time again we see the Pole get hired.

My wife's from Eastern Europe. She started out working bizarre shifts at factories doing the exact type of menial jobs frowned upon by many natives. Yet now she's a shift manager at a local care company. Part of her job is to interview new staff and she despairs at the amount of people who send their CV and when invited for an interview they call up and ask if they HAVE to come. Can they not just pretend they did since they only applied because the Job Centre made them! :punch: This isnt a one off, it's a regular occurance. Not to mention those who simply just don't turn up.
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But if the Polish guy has just arrived and can barely speak English, hes obviously NOT as equally qualified as the British guy, so yes, the British guy should get the job. I can understand the part about the menial tasks and strange shift patterns though. As you have mentioned, im also not saying that all of the unemployed UK workers dont want to work, but they are still being choosy when it comes to the jobs they will do. Taking your Wife as an example, she worked hard doing something crap to be able to get to the point where she isnt doing something crap. Unfortunately, there are a lot of UK unemployed that arent willing to do the first bit.
 
ST4 said:
Per head/uk population we see a lot more immigration of EU people into britain than we export. Why is that?
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I thought that was true. I thought it was because as an English speaking nation with a culture of tolerance and (generally) flexible working rules that we attract more EU immigration than say Poland. Since most people can speak a bit of English and every EU nation's school's will teach English.

However according to the home office report that has been 'sanitised' several times to make it less pro-immigration we've only seen an extra 100k people.

Maybe it's because it's much more obvious to us when an immigrant moves in next door than when a UK person moves abroad that we think it's out of control. Because right now the numbers simply don't back up that '...we see a lot more immigration of EU people...;

ST4 said:
There are many capable people here, not all are the way your wife describes. Many have good work ethics. This is not a nation of delinquents.
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I agree with this.
 
viv1969 said:
Whatever their immigration system, Austrailia fills a much higher percentage of its posts with immigrants than the UK does.

Yes, does fill posts maily with Aussies, the same as the UK still fills posts mainly with Brits.
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It is also 20 times the size (guess) with what, a quarter of the population.
 
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The sooner there are no borders, no different countries, everyone is the same colour and speaks the same language the better. At least then the work shy won't be able to blame the foreigners.
 
gadgeteer said:
However according to the home office report that has been 'sanitised' several times to make it less pro-immigration we've only seen an extra 100k people.
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Does that include the 50,000 that they have "apparently lost"? ;)

They we talking about this on the radio a couple of days ago.
The only link I can find quickly is from the Telegraph

So if that is a true figure 100,000,
They have either lost a half or a third.
(Depending)

More than 50,000 illegal immigrants told to leave the country have been granted a "de-facto amnesty"
after officials admitted they have no idea where they are.

Mandie Campbell, director general of Immigration Enforcement at the Home Office,
said that immigration enforcement officers are not even looking for the individuals
because of limited resources.

Makes you wonder doesn't it?
 
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cambsno said:
It is also 20 times the size (guess) with what, a quarter of the population.
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Yes, in sheer numbers of course we have a higher amount of immigrants, but that doesn't alter that fact that UK has 12% population not UK born, whilst Australia has 27% of the population not Aussie born (granted those are 2013 numbers).
So yes, they have a significantly stricter immigration policy, but they still clearly welcome immigrants willing to become contributing members of Aussie life.
 
Cobra said:
Does that include the 50,000 that they have "apparently lost"? ;)
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Again we're talking about illegal (ie. non-EU) immigrants where us leaving the EU would make absolutely no difference. They'd still be camping out at Calais.

I'm purely talking about the EU side because right now I fear we're sleepwalking out of Europe to stop the tide of EU 'immigrants' when the reality seems to be it's a huge storm in a teacup and on balance we do better out of it!
 
viv1969 said:
but they still clearly welcome immigrants willing to become contributing members of Aussie life.
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Thats the point isn't it? go through the correct entry procedure
and if you are acceptable you get in.
It took my cousin, and her hubby about 2 years to go through the process,
Both had desirable trades and knowledge.

But it still took 2 years, they didn't jump on a boat lorry container etc.
and claim asylum when they got there.
 
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gadgeteer said:
I'm purely talking about the EU side because right now I fear we're sleepwalking out of Europe to stop the tide of EU 'immigrants' when the reality seems to be it's a huge storm in a teacup and on balance we do better out of it!
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Ah OK, I missed the point your were making (y)
Although I doubt it's a storm in a tea-cup ;)
 
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