EU Immigrants to the UK add more to the economy than they take out

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mid_gen said:
Do you have some evidence to back up your assertion that immigrants are taking work away from British citizens? It is an oft thrown about phrase by some people and I'm interested to know where it comes from
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I think you need some education !
An extract from The Mail as Cobra doesn't read the rags lol

Its first official examination of the impact of immigration contradicts claims that UK workers have been unaffected by the number of foreign workers arriving in recent years.

MAC chairman Professor David Metcalf said the findings indicated that ministers were right to seek to restrict arrivals from outside the EU and previous assumptions that migration did not effect British employment were wrong.

He said that between 2005 and 2010 a total of 700,000 non- EU workers entered Britain. The resulting “displacement” of British workers totalled 160,000, or 23 Britons losing work for every 100 overseas arrivals.


link....http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/294891/Immigrants-do-take-British-jobs
 
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Classic Mail, cherry-picking statistics and making sweeping statements without fully explaining anything :)

Here's one for you....do you think it is purely a co-incidence that EU migration the UK is relatively high, and yet we are the best performing economy in Europe?
 
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ST4 said:
A very valid point. I am considering leaving because of the way this country is heading. Just got to find a place thats willing to have me....States seem a good fit.
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Good luck mate. I've lived in the states. Had a chance to stay too under the H1B visa scheme. A job that would have given me a salary of $100k (nearly 18 years ago). I came back to the UK.

There's much to be admired about the US but overall the UK is better.
 
gadgeteer said:
Good luck mate. I've lived in the states. Had a chance to stay too under the H1B visa scheme. A job that would have given me a salary of $100k (nearly 18 years ago). I came back to the UK.

There's much to be admired about the US but overall the UK is better.
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To be fair I'd disagree. I loved it over there. I'd have stayed if it hadn't have meant an additional 2 years studying.
 
gadgeteer said:
Good luck mate. I've lived in the states. Had a chance to stay too under the H1B visa scheme. A job that would have given me a salary of $100k (nearly 18 years ago). I came back to the UK.

There's much to be admired about the US but overall the UK is better.
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I am not going unless I can fully finance it. I wouldn't expect a country to bank roll me. My pension and assets should be enough to have me let in. I will take out health insurance before I go. I get a DB pension, and I have other arrangements to make it work for me. However, its not practical to leave whilst gainfully employed here.
 
ST4 said:
I am not going unless I can fully finance it. I wouldn't expect a country to bank roll me. My pension and assets should be enough to have me let in. I will take out health insurance before I go. I get a DB pension, and I have other arrangements to make it work for me. However, its not practical to leave whilst gainfully employed here.
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And they won't. Unless you're happy to split your time between the US and the UK, or you have a ton of money to throw at it, you'll find it's not as easy as you think retiring to the US.

If you do it, do it right though....they have 11,500,000 illegal immigrants of their own to deal with. ;)
 
ST4 said:
I am not going unless I can fully finance it. I wouldn't expect a country to bank roll me. My pension and assets should be enough to have me let in. I will take out health insurance before I go. I get a DB pension, and I have other arrangements to make it work for me. However, its not practical to leave whilst gainfully employed here.
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Don't forget to learn the native tongue before you go ;)
 
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mid_gen said:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Daily_Mail
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Ah a wiki link, another very useful and truthful source of information (y)
:D

ST4 said:
A very valid point. I am considering leaving because of the way this country is heading. Just got to find a place thats willing to have me....States seem a good fit.
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Nikon_Nick said:
I hope you dont expect to be given a job over there.
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I thought Steve could live off "the system"?
:D

NikonKev said:
I think you need some education !
An extract from The Mail as Cobra doesn't read the rags lol
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Thanks :D
 
viv1969 said:
And they won't. Unless you're happy to split your time between the US and the UK, or you have a ton of money to throw at it, you'll find it's not as easy as you think retiring to the US.

If you do it, do it right though....they have 11,500,000 illegal immigrants of their own to deal with. ;)
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I will investigate it for sure. Politically I am more alined to the US. Plus I have family there (I am not a US national or have ever lived there). I love their landscapes, food and political set up, I'd go for California probably or a southern state. It's a long way off before I do it, but shall see if they will allow me in.
 
viv1969 said:
If you do it, do it right though....they have 11,500,000 illegal immigrants of their own to deal with. ;)
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But I have it on good authority from someone that lives quite close to the Mexican boarder
that they actually shoot them when trying to cross, out there ;)
And as such he was actually advised quite recently to "carry" if he was near that area.
(I can only assume they shoot back)
 
ST4 said:
I will investigate it for sure. Politically I am more alined to the US. Plus I have family there (I am not a US national or have ever lived there). I love their landscapes, food and political set up, I'd go for California probably or a southern state. It's a long way off before I do it, but shall see if they will allow me in.
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None of that will be relevant to an application.
And California has more illegal immigrants than any other state by a massive margin, so at least your riteous indignation will be well entertained! :LOL:
 
NikonKev said:
Looks like you Cherry pick who you believe depending on the support is gives your argument :runaway::runaway::runaway:
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This is how internet arguments work, don't you get that :) Here's some more quotes from that express article (must have been hard to print this given their rabidly anti-immigrant stance).

However, he said foreigners who have been in the UK for more than five years do not affect British-born workers.

The study shows that wages have been pushed down for lower skilled workers, but that for higher skilled Britons the impact of migration on incomes has been positive.
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viv1969 said:
If you do it, do it right though....they have 11,500,000 illegal immigrants of their own to deal with
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The native americans probably think it's closer to 300,000,000.

ST4 said:
I will investigate it for sure. Politically I am more alined to the US. Plus I have family there (I am not a US national or have ever lived there). I love their landscapes, food and political set up, I'd go for California probably or a southern state. It's a long way off before I do it, but shall see if they will allow me in.
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This reminded me of a comment on the BBC's 'Have Your Say' website:

"I was fed up with the number of immigrants in the UK so I moved to Canada"

Written with no sense of irony at all!


Steve.
 
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ST4 said:
Not but my health cover, inherited property (in all liklihood) there and income will be...
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Income is irrelevant, as is inherited property as far as gaining residential status is concerned. and Health cover is a legal requirement even as a visitor.
Your willingness to invest is the key.
Even these wealthy celeb types have to split their time and only have a working visa; or they invest heavily in US business.
 
viv1969 said:
Income is irrelevant, as is inherited property as far as gaining residential status is concerned. and Health cover is a legal requirement even as a visitor.
Your willingness to invest is the key.
Even these wealthy celeb types have to split their time and only have a working visa; or they invest heavily in US business.
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Invest in what, their stockmarket, place my capital there. Sure, I would do that. I have to see whether I meet their requirements. It is a long way off, but a plan in my minds eye...
 
Statistics always muddy the water. The fact there is a net benefit from EU immigration is no surprise and there are definitely jobs in the UK that the indigenous population do not want or cannot do as well. Fruit picking is one example and jobs requiring multi lingual ability is another and I am sure there are many more.

To me the point is that the net benefit from EU migration would be even larger if we could only allow in those who were going to add value. Undoubtedly there are a number of people who come here from the EU and add nothing.

Equally the cost of non EU migration includes the positive contribution and wealth brought here by Indian and Russian billionaires. If you take their contribution out the cost of non EU migration is even greater.

My conclusion is if we can control who comes in and who doesn't the benefits we get from all immigration would be far larger.

This is of course looking at immigration from a purely economic view rather than a humanitarion view.
 
BBR said:
Statistics always muddy the water. The fact there is a net benefit from EU immigration is no surprise and there are definitely jobs in the UK that the indigenous population do not want or cannot do as well. Fruit picking is one example and jobs requiring multi lingual ability is another and I am sure there are many more.

To me the point is that the net benefit from EU migration would be even larger if we could only allow in those who were going to add value. Undoubtedly there are a number of people who come here from the EU and add nothing.

Equally the cost of non EU migration includes the positive contribution and wealth brought here by Indian and Russian billionaires. If you take their contribution out the cost of non EU migration is even greater.

My conclusion is if we can control who comes in and who doesn't the benefits we get from all immigration would be far larger.

This is of course looking at immigration from a purely economic view rather than a humanitarion view.
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It's not a fact though. Other reports dispute the conclusions and the methodology used which is no surprise given how complex it is to work out. Seasonal fruit picking could be done by the unemployed, students or other people like ex-prisoners who find it difficult to get back into employment or even certain prisoners. It's not like people from Bulgaria and Roamnia are physically more astute at being able to pick vegetables and fruit.

You could argue that being multilingual wouldn't be as important if you didn't have so many people that required that service in the first place. I wouldn't think it was a massive skills shortage facing the UK though and even then people in the UK could learn a new language if it was a job requirement.
 
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Cobra said:
Ah a wiki link, another very useful and truthful source of information (y)
:D
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You wanted to know why the Mail is always brought up in these kind of discussion, that link explains it as well I could!

As an aside, there's nothing inherently wrong with Wikis as an information source, provided you pay attention to the references.
 
Laudrup said:
It's not a fact though. Other reports dispute the conclusions and the methodology used. Seasonal fruit picking could be done by the unemployed, students or other people like ex-prisoners who find it difficult to get back into employment or even certain prisoners. It's not like people from Bulgaria and Roamnia are physically more astute at being able to pick vegetables and fruit.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-25181268

The difference with Bulgarian and Romanian people is that they are prepared to work picking fruit, Brits aren't.
 
mid_gen said:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-25181268

The difference with Bulgarian and Romanian people is that they are prepared to work picking fruit, Brits aren't.
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However, the Home Office said there was little evidence the supply of seasonal labour would decline.
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Lots of British people want jobs too and they can pick fruit as well as any EU or non-EU citizen. It would be good if we could channel more UK people into horticulture instead of the self-fulfilling prophecy that people can't or won't do it so don't employ them. It would be a good way to stop unscrupulous employers too.
 
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It is not a self fulfilling prophecy. It is clear and measurable. When people don't apply for the advertised jobs then what can you do....

You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink.
 
dejongj said:
It is not a self fulfilling prophecy. It is clear and measurable. When people don't apply for the advertised jobs then what can you do....

You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink.
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Well that is just it. I believe in the case of those on JSA etc, you can. They need to be told to apply and that supervised in the job centre. Ok its seasonal work, but its work, it fills the CV and makes getting other jobs easier. If people who are on benefits who can pick fruit, they should be effing well made to pick fruit rather than be on benefits.

Jobs like this are ideal for ex cons out of jail starting over too.
 
As an employer I would want the best suitable for the job. Not someone who is made to to apply. That would waste everyone's time. Managing those who aren't motivated to work will require increased management overhead thus I would want to be able to pay them less.

To me this is very simple. Job seekers should be 70% if average income of previous four years for a period of no more than 18 months. There after it should drop to a level much lower than it is currently. And in neither scale must it be augmented by other benefits.
 
mid_gen said:
You wanted to know why the Mail is always brought up in these kind of discussion, that link explains it as well I could!

As an aside, there's nothing inherently wrong with Wikis as an information source, provided you pay attention to the references.
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Don't get me wrong I appreciated the link (y)

But as I understand it anyone is free to amend the facts?
 
dejongj said:
As an employer I would want the best suitable for the job. Not someone who is made to to apply. That would waste everyone's time. Managing those who aren't motivated to work will require increased management overhead thus I would want to be able to pay them less.

To me this is very simple. Job seekers should be 70% if average income of previous four years for a period of no more than 18 months. There after it should drop to a level much lower than it is currently. And in neither scale must it be augmented by other benefits.
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If you cannot motivate by the carrot, try the stick. People need to eat and live, a job is their life line. It also opens doors and oppertunities. People will be motivated by their need for cash. We need to get employers here to take up the slack to get our unemployed working
 
ST4 said:
If you cannot motivate by the carrot, try the stick. People need to eat and live, a job is their life line. It also opens doors and oppertunities. People will be motivated by their need for cash. We need to get employers here to take up the slack to get our unemployed working
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Of course that brings in the benefit cap £26k soon to be £23k that's a heck of a lot more than a job in the fields one of the incentives is wrong is it the £12k for fields or £23k to stay home

Of course some will remind me of means tested tax credits, who should pay the wage the employer or the state

In photography we often think of infinity, seems to me the answer who pays is so far in the future it is not going to be answered without a debate.
 
border_all said:
I agree it's the benefit system that means choice is often they get more at home, we need a welfare catchment but it should be dependant on taking any job
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If the system creates a scenario where anyone is better off not working, then it is f*cked. The leftists, liberalists, wellfarists have created this vile system and look where it has got us.
 
ST4 said:
Thats why people come miles here to seek asylum, will stop at nothing to get here (illegally). For a self starter (like yourself) the UK is a land of oppertunity etc and I am all for enterprise and hard work, but there comes a point where we simply cannot cope. Our population is getting bigger, our land space no bigger and there's a huge glut of people that do come here that do nothing over than claim benefits.
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No there isn't. It's a myth.
 
No one would leave their own country to go to another one with the intention of living on benefits. People do it because they see a opportunity to get work and better themselves.

The reality is that they won't all finf work and some will end up on benefits but that doesn't mean that was their intent.

It was the same with people moving to America in the early part of the 1900s. It was seen as the land of opportunity where everyone could have a good life. The reality was far from that though.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
No one would leave their own country to go to another one with the intention of living on benefits. People do it because they see a opportunity to get work and better themselves.

The reality is that they won't all finf work and some will end up on benefits but that doesn't mean that was their intent.

It was the same with people moving to America in the early part of the 1900s. It was seen as the land of opportunity where everyone could have a good life. The reality was far from that though.


Steve.
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So the Romanians you see around park lane came here because they had jobs? How many Brits go abroad to work without either a job to go to or a chunk of money to live off and invest.
 
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