Panorama - Apple's broken promises

[dejongj]

Well, (purely from Panorama), allegedly the phone sells for $600+, the factory gets $5 per phone ... who decides at the moment is the seller ... who clearly wants maximum profit from minimum outlay.

I find $5 per phone rather hard to believe don't you perhaps in assembling costs purely and they'd still be making a profit. Figures like these don't mean anything unless the full supply chain with all their costs are known. And let's not forget tax as well.

 

[gramps]

I find $5 per phone rather hard to believe don't you perhaps in assembling costs purely and they'd still be making a profit. Figures like these don't mean anything unless the full supply chain with all their costs are known. And let's not forget tax as well.

Well in the absence of any alternative supporting 'evidence', no I don't find it hard to believe ... the price of some of the stuff coming out of China (eBay etc) constantly makes me wonder 'why do they bother?'.
Of course there are other costs but, if true, $5 out of $600+ for manufacturing the product gives a heck of a lot of scope for profit.

Apple has reported quarterly profits of $7.75bn (£4.5bn) - up 12% on the same period last year. The company sold 35.2 million iPhones from March to June, an increase of 13% from the same time in 2013.

 

[Dave *]

Well, (purely from Panorama), allegedly the phone sells for $600+, the factory gets $5 per phone ... who decides at the moment is the seller ... who clearly wants maximum profit from minimum outlay.

Leaving aside the unsubstantiated $5 figure, do you think the profit is everything other than component costs and labour cost?

What about R&D costs? Distribution costs? After sales service? Costs incurred by having B&M stores all over the world? The tax on the selling price?

It's rather simplistic to say profit is everything above the component costs + cost to put the components together.

 

[gramps]

It's rather simplistic to say profit is everything above the component costs + cost to put the components together.

I didn't say that ... as for the rest I refer you to my previous post.

 

[Dave *]

I didn't say that ... as for the rest I refer you to my previous post.

So their profit was up 12% on a sales increase of 13%? Sounds like their profit margin is slightly down.

Your post still doesn't actually state what their profit margin was or what profit margins you would find acceptable.

 

[dejongj]

^^^

To me @gramps is doing exactly what the journalist are doing. In my opinion a very lazy and sensationalist interpretation of what is really going on.

Totally ignoring the substantial and sustainable improvements caused to working hours, patterns and conditions. Sure not good enough to our standards but a lot better than it was. And they are open and transparent about it.

Perhaps panorama should look a bit more into BBC practises and journalism before doing such a lazy piece of work.

 

[gramps]

So their profit was up 12% on a sales increase of 13%? Sounds like their profit margin is slightly down.

Your post still doesn't actually state what their profit margin was or what profit margins you would find acceptable.

No I'm seriously concerned for them, how they cope on £4.5 billion profit for 3 months is amazing!
The sort of profit I would find acceptable would be a profit that provides for the entire employee chain to receive reasonable remuneration and working conditions ... if what the programme depicted was even half accurate, that standard is clearly not being attained amongst its 'sub-contract' labour force ... despite Apple's declaration to the contrary.

 

[stupar]

Im sure in the program they quoted that Apple make a $250 profit on every phone

 

[gramps]

@Dave1 @dejongj did either of you watch the programme?

 

[dejongj]

No I'm seriously concerned for them, how they cope on £4.5 billion profit for 3 months is amazing!
The sort of profit I would find acceptable would be a profit that provides for the entire employee chain to receive reasonable remuneration and working conditions ... if what the programme depicted was even half accurate, that standard is clearly not being attained amongst its 'sub-contract' labour force ... despite Apple's declaration to the contrary.

Pegatron makes a fairly healthy profit, as do Samsung, 3M, Alps, Foxlink, Hon Hai Precision...amongst many others. The latter (Hon Hai) better known as Foxconn was at the centre of the previous scandal due to working conditions, the high rate of suicides etc. Naturally that time as well Apple was blamed for it, interestingly based on a 'journalistic' interpretation of Apple's own report stating that it wasn't good enough and working on a plan to improve conditions...

There is nothing new here, it is a (un?)healthy dose of human nature, eastern working practises, western guilt, and a bunch of journalists using big well known names for their own commercial gain. Oh and general public lapping up every word they say and getting their pitchforks out.

@gramps did you ever get anything manufactured in China?

 

[Dave *]

@Dave1 @dejongj did either of you watch the programme?

Yes, not that it would really have any real relevance to the discussion, it was quite sensationalistic and biased, not to mention inaccurate.

 

[gramps]

Yes, not that it would really have any real relevance to the discussion, it was quite sensationalistic and biased, not to mention inaccurate.

Your evidence for that?

 

[Dave *]

Your evidence for that?

You didn't watch the program then?

Why don't you go watch it and see how many "Apple factories" you see? Or how many times the rules Apple have made for Pegatron to follow got reported as being "Apples broken promises" when Pegatron failed to follow them or deliberately broke them.

 

[gramps]

You didn't watch the program then?

Why don't you go watch it and see how many "Apple factories" you see? Or how many times the rules Apple have made for Pegatron to follow got reported as being "Apples broken promises" when Pegatron failed to follow them or deliberately broke them.

Ah, you don't have any then and didn't pay full attention.

 

[viv1969]

They make such huge profits due to the sheer number of sheep willing to pay stupid money for their products too.

 

[dejongj]

They make such huge profits due to the sheer number of sheep willing to pay stupid money for their products too.

You know if you can't even formulate your point without making insults perhaps just don't make one. Sigh.

 

[dejongj]

Ah, you don't have any then and didn't pay full attention.

So you manufactured a lot out there then? You seem to conveniently ignore all the other companies involved in the supply chain making a very healthy profit. And then many of the blue chips at the end of the supply chain who don't even publish their findings.

 

[viv1969]

You know if you can't even formulate your point without making insults perhaps just don't make one. Sigh.

Who did I I insult?

 

[viv1969]

So...to put it a little differently for those feeling a little precious. ..

So long as people are willing to pay ridiculous retail prices for the latest bit of tech, the tech companies will continue to rake in the cash.
Anyone who feels that those companies are acting in anyway unethically in their manufacturing process can vote with their habits as a consumer.

Better?

 

[Laudrup]

Megatron makes a fairly healthy profit, as do Samsung, 3M, Alps, Foxlink, Hon Hai Precision...amongst many others. The latter (Hon Hai) better known as Foxconn was at the centre of the previous scandal due to working conditions, the high rate of suicides etc. Naturally that time as well Apple was blamed for it, interestingly based on a 'journalistic' interpretation of Apple's own report stating that it wasn't good enough and working on a plan to improve conditions...

There is nothing new here, it is a (un?)healthy dose of human nature, eastern working practises, western guilt, and a bunch of journalists using big well known names for their own commercial gain. Oh and general public lapping up every word they say and getting their pitchforks out.

@gramps did you ever get anything manufactured in China?

Pegatron this show was about. Isn't Megatron a Transformer?

People falling asleep at work, working 70 hours a week, fake audit trails, told not to fall asleep against electrical wires as they will die or 12 year olds working at tin mines worrying about landslides burying them and their Dad isn't something you can just sweep under the carpet. Especially if you are making billions of dollars of profit and spending a low amount at the factory for each phone being put together.

It was a very poor advertisement for Apple. No wonder they dodged an interview with the BBC.

 

[dejongj]

And Apple never swept it under the carpet. As they have done before they publish those reports and findings. They are spending a fair amount with the factory and as I highlighted before there are lots of very very rich suppliers. Nobody is saying it isn't happening or that it is right. However knee jerk reactions don't help the people working their either. If there was plenty of choice they'd be working elsewhere when it is so bad wouldn't they?

 

[nilagin]

You know if you can't even formulate your point without making insults perhaps just don't make one. Sigh.

I see no insult in what Ruth wrote. It's a fact, they are overpriced, hence people pay stupid money for them.

 

[Laudrup]

And Apple never swept it under the carpet. As they have done before they publish those reports and findings. They are spending a fair amount with the factory and as I highlighted before there are lots of very very rich suppliers. Nobody is saying it isn't happening or that it is right. However knee jerk reactions don't help the people working their either. If there was plenty of choice they'd be working elsewhere when it is so bad wouldn't they?

Apple are making superficial promises and at the factory they are blackmailing you into signing documents saying you will work nights or overtime or you lose your job. Do they need people working 70 hours a week falling asleep and 12 packed in a dorm meant for 9 when they make obscene profits?

 

[viv1969]

Apple are not the employers.

 

[Laudrup]

Apple are not the employers.

They are making Apple products, that is where the buck stops.

 

[viv1969]

They are making Apple products, that is where the buck stops.

Nonesense.
Post 27.

 

[Alejandro]

I always find it amazing how much hostility some people have towards Apple. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything made by Apple. If people want to buy it, fine, if they don't, fine.

People falling asleep at work, working 70 hours a week, fake audit trails, told not to fall asleep against electrical wires as they will die or 12 year olds working at tin mines worrying about landslides burying them and their Dad isn't something you can just sweep under the carpet.

You've probably just described every factory in China but TV companies won't go "undercover" in non-Apple factories as that wouldn't be as juicy. As I mentioned before, why is a 12 year old illegally mining Apple's problem? It's a problem for the Indonesian government, for the ENTIRE mining industry and the ENTIRE manufacturing industry. Do you know where all the tin in your own electronics comes from? Probably exactly the same suppliers that Apple uses ...

I see no insult in what Ruth wrote. It's a fact, they are overpriced, hence people pay stupid money for them.

Ruth wasn't insulting, but you were in post #34 where you called Apple customers "mugs". It's also not a fact they are overpriced, it is your opinion.

 

[nilagin]

I always find it amazing how much hostility some people have towards Apple. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything made by Apple. If people want to buy it, fine, if they don't, fine.






Ruth wasn't insulting, but you were in post #34 where you called Apple customers "mugs". It's also not a fact they are overpriced, it is your opinion.

I think I've touched a nerve.
Defend them all you like, they are still overpriced. Some people just have to be seen to have the labels.

 

[simon ess]

Nothing that sells in the volumes predicted by the business plan is overpriced.

People may consider it more than they wish to pay, but that does not make it overpriced.

Only the market can decide that.

 

[nilagin]

Nothing that sells in the volumes predicted by the business plan is overpriced.

That or they chanced their arm and couldn't believe their luck. As I said before, some people are just obsessed with labels.

 

[dejongj]

They are making Apple products, that is where the buck stops.

And many many other vendors products. Then there is local governments who should look after their people.

And let's just pretend it is all apple. Why don't the employers turn around and say no. Why don't the workers say no and work elsewhere. It seems to happen all the time in the business section here on this forum where they say no. Or pay peanuts for a second shooter if paying at all

 

[dejongj]

I see no insult in what Ruth wrote. It's a fact, they are overpriced, hence people pay stupid money for them.

Well if you can't see it then that says it all really.

What are you comparing against by calling their products overpriced? Anyway don't bother answering that, it is such a boring conversation regardless of the topic. Some people seem to be happy getting the cheapest possible and convince themselves that they have the same experience as the top quality product. Note to self; let's sell that German 4x4 and get the Dacia Duster instead, it is just the same isn't it?.

 

[Laudrup]

Nonesense.
Post 27.

I think that unless a person knows the origin of every component part of everything they own, and is secure in the knowledge that they were all produced by adults earning a fair and livable wage in safe suitable surroundings, then all the hollering about Apple's ethical standards is nothing more than hot air.

It's hardly safe and suitable surroundings if they have to remind you not to fall asleep or you could be electrocuted by the machine. Apple calls them their factories and has 1400 people supervising these places and 630 audits, so to just bury your head in the sand and say 'don't know where we got that part! Nothing to do with me guv!' is a pathetic response.

If you are making superficial promises to look good you'll be found out. A £100 quid hidden camera has probably found out more than these audits.

 

[Laudrup]

And many many other vendors products. Then there is local governments who should look after their people.

And let's just pretend it is all apple. Why don't the employers turn around and say no. Why don't the workers say no and work elsewhere. It seems to happen all the time in the business section here on this forum where they say no. Or pay peanuts for a second shooter if paying at all

The show was about Apple. The workers who refuse to consent to work nights have their applications returned and told to tick yes or leave so that any audit can see the signature is there. Why is Apple making these promises and not seeing they are kept?

 

[nilagin]

Well if you can't see it then that says it all really.

What are you comparing against by calling their products overpriced? Anyway don't bother answering that, it is such a boring conversation regardless of the topic. Some people seem to be happy getting the cheapest possible and convince themselves that they have the same experience as the top quality product. Note to self; let's sell that German 4x4 and get the Dacia Duster instead, it is just the same isn't it?.[/QUOTE]
Quite right too, I wouldn't spend money on either. Some people just like to convince themselves that overpiced German cars are best, tear them down into their component parts and you will realise that they are not. Yes they will be better than a Dacia, but then they are bargain bucket.

 

[viv1969]

It's hardly safe and suitable surroundings if they have to remind you not to fall asleep or you could be electrocuted by the machine. Apple calls them their factories and has 1400 people supervising these places and 630 audits, so to just bury your head in the sand and say 'don't know where we got that part! Nothing to do with me guv!' is a pathetic response.

If you are making superficial promises to look good you'll be found out. A £100 quid hidden camera has probably found out more than these audits.

What I'm saying is that I pretty much guarantee that everyone here owns tech...furniture..clothing...something, that includes component parts manufactured in some foreign s***hole and assembled by underpaid mistreated adults and children.
Until they stop buying those products people need to stop whining about it.
The consumer dollar is one of the most powerful and most underused global forces.
Action speaks, indignation doesn't.

 

[stupar]

Well if you can't see it then that says it all really.

What are you comparing against by calling their products overpriced? Anyway don't bother answering that, it is such a boring conversation regardless of the topic. Some people seem to be happy getting the cheapest possible and convince themselves that they have the same experience as the top quality product. Note to self; let's sell that German 4x4 and get the Dacia Duster instead, it is just the same isn't it?.

To me a comparison that apple is over priced is

Apple iphone 6 16gb version approx £549 new from Apple

LG G3 16gb £299 new from Amazon
And in my opinion the LG is leaps and bounds ahead of the iphone and certainly not comparible to a Dacia Duster!!!

 

[Laudrup]

What I'm saying is that I pretty much guarantee that everyone here owns tech...furniture..clothing...something, that includes component parts manufactured in some foreign s***hole and assembled by underpaid mistreated adults and children.
Until they stop buying those products people need to stop whining about it.
The consumer dollar is one of the most powerful and most underused global forces.
Action speaks, indignation doesn't.

If Apple are going to make promises like this:

https://www.apple.com/uk/supplier-responsibility/

Then it shouldn't be unreasonable for them to make good on these promises given the money they make. If it takes hidden cameras and pressure from external sources then so be it. Boycotting them isn't going to help, but you would be foolish to run a business that thinks they can make big hollow promises and just shrug your shoulders and say every one is at it so just buy the next product.

 

[viv1969]

Only the highly gullible would ever have believed them.

 

[LCPete]

To me a comparison that apple is over priced is

Apple iphone 6 16gb version approx £549 new from Apple

LG G3 16gb £299 new from Amazon
And in my opinion the LG is leaps and bounds ahead of the iphone and certainly not comparible to a Dacia Duster!!!

Agree with you on the price of the iPhone
i have a ipad and macbook and would like an iphone too but they are too expensive for what they are
I think that the mac laptops are worth the money tho
I didn't see the programme but as already said unless we all stop buying tech products there's not much that will change