Panorama - Apple's broken promises

stupar said:
To me a comparison that apple is over priced is

Apple iphone 6 16gb version approx £549 new from Apple

LG G3 16gb £299 new from Amazon
And in my opinion the LG is leaps and bounds ahead of the iphone and certainly not comparible to a Dacia Duster!!!
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So when the LG goes wrong can I walk into an LG store situated in many cities around the country and get an immediate replacement within 10 minutes from them?
 
No but at what point does that ability justify an almost £300 increase in cost...ho hum!
 
stupar said:
No but at what point does that ability justify an almost £300 increase in cost...ho hum!
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But if you did a slightly less skewed comparison, and compared B&M prices, the LG G3 is actually £479.95, so the difference is actually £70 when a balanced comparison is done.

http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/phones/lg-g3?portal=GOOGLE&promo=PPCPAYM&ppc=true

I suppose looking for the cheapest online price versus the B&M price from the manufacturer just suited your argument?
 
How is it skewed!?
If i can buy a brand new LG G3 from amazon for £299 why would i go to a retailer like carphone warehouse or Curry's and pay £479?
Thats not skewed thats just flipping common sense!!!!
 
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stupar said:
How is it skewed!?
If i can buy a brand new LG G3 from amazon for £299 why would i go to a retailer like carphone warehouse or Curry's and pay £479?
Thats not skewed thats just flipping common sense!!!!
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Just like camera equipment it's a little unfair to compare a chain with high store street stores, staff and and after sales service (and in Apples case, a warranty system that gives immediate replacements with no questions asked) to a warehouse outlet. One has far higher overheads, and you have somewhere to go for help and advice (which needs paying for).

You can use the same argument for Mercedes vs Hyundai, Rolex vs Casio, BA first class vs Ryan Air...

By your reasoning, if I go and mug someone for an iPhone 6 it is even better value than the LG, as it's free.
 
Dave1 said:
Just like camera equipment it's a little unfair to compare a chain with high store street stores, staff and and after sales service (and in Apples case, a warranty system that gives immediate replacements with no questions asked) to a warehouse outlet. One has far higher overheads, and you have somewhere to go for help and advice (which needs paying for).

You can use the same argument for Mercedes vs Hyundai, Rolex vs Casio, BA first class vs Ryan Air...

By your reasoning, if I go and mug someone for an iPhone 6 it is even better value than the LG, as it's free.
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So what you are saying is, buy an LG and hope it works ok and you've got your monies worth. But buy an iphone and hope it breaks so you can get your monies worth.
Good luck with buying a Mercedes and hoping they will give you a new car, no questions asked, when the original breaks down.
 
Ignoring the fact that every thread mentioning Apple usually descends into the same arguments about being overpriced.

I've just taken a very quick look at Pegatron themselves who, from this thread, are made out to look like a poor, mis-treated supplier;

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegatron

Revenue US $ 18.4 Billion (2010)
Profit US $ 215.6 Million (2010)

"As of March 2010, Pegatron had approximately 5,646 employees stationed in Taiwan, 89,521 in China, 2,400 in the Czech Republic, 200 in each of the United States, Mexico and Japan.[8] Pegatron has manufacturing plants in Taiwan, the Czech Republic, Mexico, and China, and customer service centers in the United States and Japan.[9]"

So they're not exactly a tiny organisation depending on the alleged $5 per Iphone....They also own ASRock so I assume everyone bashing Apple has never had any ASRock components in their PCs?

Also, in relation to the Panorama findings, "Pegatron responded to the BBC claiming the report was heavily biased and their factory standards were normal for China." Whilst I'm not suggesting the working practices highlighted are fair or 'right' by western standards, the bigger issue is manufacturing in Far Eastern factories as a whole which should be addressed by the countries' own Governments as much as the companies contracting them.
 
Also, just found this article which might upset the Android/Windows fans too;

http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/25/pegatron-licenses-microsofts-patent-porfolio-for-android-and-ch/

"Microsoft may make a ton of money by selling Xboxes, operating systems, and other software to consumers, but it also pads its bottom line by monetizing its IP. Its newest patent profits will be coming from Pegatron Corp. -- a Taiwanese ODM that makes parts for a plethora of others, including Apple, ASUS and HP -- as the two companies have entered into a licensing agreement for devices running Android and Chrome OS."

Looks like MS and Google aren't bothered about Pegatron's practices so long as they're buying licenses from them...
 
stevelmx5 said:
Ignoring the fact that every thread mentioning Apple usually descends into the same arguments about being overpriced.

I've just taken a very quick look at Pegatron themselves who, from this thread, are made out to look like a poor, mis-treated supplier;

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegatron

Revenue US $ 18.4 Billion (2010)
Profit US $ 215.6 Million (2010)

"As of March 2010, Pegatron had approximately 5,646 employees stationed in Taiwan, 89,521 in China, 2,400 in the Czech Republic, 200 in each of the United States, Mexico and Japan.[8] Pegatron has manufacturing plants in Taiwan, the Czech Republic, Mexico, and China, and customer service centers in the United States and Japan.[9]"

So they're not exactly a tiny organisation depending on the alleged $5 per Iphone....They also own ASRock so I assume everyone bashing Apple has never had any ASRock components in their PCs?

Also, in relation to the Panorama findings, "Pegatron responded to the BBC claiming the report was heavily biased and their factory standards were normal for China." Whilst I'm not suggesting the working practices highlighted are fair or 'right' by western standards, the bigger issue is manufacturing in Far Eastern factories as a whole which should be addressed by the countries' own Governments as much as the companies contracting them.
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A point I've made a few times, but hey the apple haters for some reason just don't want to see the full picture. In my list earlier there are many other suppliers as well. Anyone remember hon hai precision also known as Foxconn. I'm comfortable to say that most of the cheap generic tat comes out of their factories.

It never seizes to amazes me how some people can only look at the components of a product opposed to the whole experience. Have no experience of quality produce and yet feel warranted to say it is overpriced without qualifications.

Anyway it is descending in the usual apple haters nonsense, amazing how for such a brand that is disliked by the usuals they feel like following their every move.
 
dejongj said:
It never seizes to amazes me how some people can only look at the components of a product opposed to the whole experience. Have no experience of quality produce and yet feel warranted to say it is overpriced without qualifications.

Anyway it is descending in the usual apple haters nonsense, amazing how for such a brand that is disliked by the usuals they feel like following their every move.
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I dont follow Apple I am confronted by their presence through the media whether that be TV, paper, magazines, tech blogs etc thid it is hard to avoid!!!

If you go back and read post 1, 15 and 20 you will see that i did not suggest this situation is unique to Apple. What I did allude to is the fact that Apple make a rod for their own back with allcthe hysteria they generate over their products and the mis aligned ethical commitments they declare about the company.
 
I dont think many Far East factories, including "apples", are deploying fair working environments for staff.

Irrespective of whether you love or hate Apple that seems pretty clear. Fwiw I'm posting from my 5S now and up till recently owned an iPad. But some fan love to play the "you're just all haters" card.
 
nilagin said:
Good luck with buying a Mercedes and hoping they will give you a new car, no questions asked, when the original breaks down.
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I didn't say that.

There was more than one point to that post, I said you can use @stupar's argument in the comparison of a cheap brand vs an expensive brand (LG vs Apple) for many different products. For example, a comparison between other higher quality expensive brands and cheaper versions (like Mercedes vs Hyundai or Rolex vs Casio). Similar items, doing the same thing, but with a price differential.
 
its not really a valid comparison in this instance though.

referring to working conditions then most of VAG factories (at least certainly for the EU market) are EU based which will have much tighter rules on working conditions and pay.

granted china has better rules these days (another reason why production is shifting into Vietnam/Bangladesh etc as these rules haven't come across into these countries).
 
Dave1 said:
I didn't say that.

There was more than one point to that post, I said you can use @stupar's argument in the comparison of a cheap brand vs an expensive brand (LG vs Apple) for many different products. For example, a comparison between other higher quality expensive brands and cheaper versions (like Mercedes vs Hyundai or Rolex vs Casio). Similar items, doing the same thing, but with a price differential.
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To me though your argument doesnt hold water.
You seem to imply that LG is cheap as a name if you are going to compare to the likes of Hyundai and Casio as you put it.
Yet i would class LG and Samsung (for that matter) as premium brands just like Apple.

Had it skipped your mind that Apple use some LG screens and Samsung memory/batteries in their devices - cant be all that bad then eh :wink:
 
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neil_g said:
I dont think many Far East factories, including "apples", are deploying fair working environments for staff.

Irrespective of whether you love or hate Apple that seems pretty clear. Fwiw I'm posting from my 5S now and up till recently owned an iPad. But some fan love to play the "you're just all haters" card.
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Nice dig, many would welcome an open and objective discussion without it being dragged down to these polarised stances with generalised unsubstantiated statements.
 
stupar said:
I dont follow Apple I am confronted by their presence through the media whether that be TV, paper, magazines, tech blogs etc thid it is hard to avoid!!!

If you go back and read post 1, 15 and 20 you will see that i did not suggest this situation is unique to Apple. What I did allude to is the fact that Apple make a rod for their own back with allcthe hysteria they generate over their products and the mis aligned ethical commitments they declare about the company.
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Hum, google got caught out with their "don't do evil." http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/11.01/google_pr.html

So it's not just apple. Quite interesting to see other companies being attacked. Historically it would just have been Microsoft. Rise of other companies, fall of Microsoft, or a bit of both?
 
stupar said:
To me though your argument doesnt hold water.
You seem to imply that LG is cheap as a name if you are going to compare to the likes of Hyundai and Casio as you put it.
Yet i would class LG and Samsung (for that matter) as premium brands just like Apple.

Had it skipped your mind that Apple use some LG screens and Samsung memory/batteries in their devices - cant be all that bad then eh :wink:
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I don't know what this obsession is regarding comparing component level parts of the hardware. Absolutely a lot of LG components are being used. However the individual components cobbled together don't make the experience and usability.

I couldn't name a single category where I would class LG as a premium brand or product unfortunately. I wish I could but just can't think of a single desirable or aspirational product.
 
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stupar said:
To me though your argument doesnt hold water.
You seem to imply that LG is cheap as a name if you are going to compare to the likes of Hyundai and Casio as you put it.
Yet i would class LG and Samsung (for that matter) as premium brands just like Apple.

Had it skipped your mind that Apple use some LG screens and Samsung memory/batteries in their devices - cant be all that bad then eh :wink:
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You might be happy with your LG, and it is a perfectly usable phone, but I have never seen it described as a premium brand, not their phones or any other device with an LG badge, if anything they are in the lower end of the market (or they wouldn't be acting as an OEM style maker allowing others to brand their products).

Like a Moto G, or (going back to my previous analogy) a Hyundai, they are reasonably well built objects that are aimed at the less style or quality conscious consumer who are more budget focussed. There will always be a market for those so can't (or don't want to) afford to pay for a premium item.

dejongj said:
I couldn't name a single category where I would class LG as a premium brand or product unfortunately. I wish I could but just can't think of a single desirable or aspirational product.
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Agreed.
 
Such blinkered views that anything outwith apple is not premium...hang on whilst i catch my breath from hysterical laughing... i can barely move FM!
 
stupar said:
Such blinkered views that anything outwith apple is not premium...hang on whilst i catch my breath from hysterical laughing... i can barely move FM!
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Don't think anyone said that only Apple is a premium brand Stuart, just that LG isn't and I agree on that score. I have an LG TV and I'm very happy with it but I still don't think it's on a par with Sony as far as brand goes.

With mobile phones, the three most popular appear to be the iPhone, Galaxy S5 and M8. To me, that makes the premium brands Apple, Samsung and HTC.
 
Lg is a huge company though, not just in the phone market. They produce a huge range of products, 87000 employes in lots of countries and around. $50 billion turnover
 
I wouldn't call an iPhone a premium product, it's just a handbag, a fashion statement. I'm sorry but some people really do need to get a life, seriously.
 
nilagin said:
I wouldn't call an iPhone a premium product, it's just a handbag, a fashion statement. I'm sorry but some people really do need to get a life, seriously.
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Whether you personally like Apple (and the iPhone) or not, it's accepted by the majority of consumers (and most of the industry) as being a premium brand.

It's one reason why they can sell an item for more than LG can (the same as Samsung do with their premium range, as another example).
 
Dave1 said:
Whether you personally like Apple (and the iPhone) or not, it's accepted by the majority of consumers (and most of the industry) as being a premium brand.

It's one reason why they can sell an item for more than LG can (the same as Samsung do with their premium range, as another example).
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The same can be said because it's seen as a fashion accessory. It's a phone ffs, just a mass produced phone.
 
nilagin said:
The same can be said because it's seen as a fashion accessory. It's a phone ffs, just a mass produced phone.
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It is a mass produced premium phone, just like the Samsung Note 4, or other mass produced premium products like a Rolex watch, a Mercedes S class, or a Canon D1x or a Nikon D4s or any other mass produced product perceived as being premium.

Just because you don't like Apple doesn't change the perception of the product by the majority of people.
 
It's nothing to do with liking or disliking, it's a handbag, end of.
 
Dave1 said:
It is a mass produced premium phone, just like the Samsung Note 4, or other mass produced premium products like a Rolex watch, a Mercedes S class, or a Canon D1x or a Nikon D4s or any other mass produced product perceived as being premium.

Just because you don't like Apple doesn't change the perception of the product by the majority of people.
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As you are the master of all things Apple (sorry tech) explain to us mere mortals what defines a product as premium then?
 
Why are Bang & Olufsen considered a premium product? The quality of their equipment doesn't appear to have anything to do with it, it's to do with design and marketing I would say but there's no doubting where B&O gave positioned themselves in the marketplace.

A bit like Apple perhaps.
 
fabs said:
Don't think anyone said that only Apple is a premium brand Stuart, just that LG isn't and I agree on that score. I have an LG TV and I'm very happy with it but I still don't think it's on a par with Sony as far as brand goes.

With mobile phones, the three most popular appear to be the iPhone, Galaxy S5 and M8. To me, that makes the premium brands Apple, Samsung and HTC.
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As the most popular I think that makes them. ..the most popular :)
I'd still say there's a good deal of brand snobbery across the board.
 
viv1969 said:
As the most popular I think that makes them. ..the most popular :)
I'd still say there's a good deal of brand snobbery across the board.
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Isn't that what branding is about? Create the brand to make your product the more popular, price accordingly.

There will always be a certain amount of brand snobbery, whichever brand people choose. Personally, I have an iPhone because I really like the way it works, especially the way it integrates with iTunes. As for the design of the phone itself, I prefer the HTC but I just didn't get on with Android the last time I had it.

As for quality, I had a Samsung Galaxy and the build quality was poor in comparison to the iPhone.
 
Watch "The men who made us spend" might still be on bbc iplayer
 
stupar said:
As you are the master of all things Apple (sorry tech) explain to us mere mortals what defines a product as premium then?
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Yes, I'm the master of Apple with a Samsung Galaxy phone and an Asus Transformer tablet.

It's not hard for the average person to understand what makes a product premium.

I suggest you start your education with this site, it can answer most questions if you know how to construct a sentence, you could try "what makes a product premium" as your first question, I'm sure there are plenty of sites to assist you in learning.
 
having owned an Iphone, a Samsung S3, a current Nokia and some tablets, the build of the iphone is better by some way, the galaxy is a lot of plastic, the nokia 930 is on a par with the apple device but has a plastic back.

I have an ipad and a samsung tablet, the ipad is built better and is more sturdy, the samsung is cheaper build.

As a manufacturer of a premium product brand, i'd say that the 'premium' tag is quality and customer care/service/added value. Perceived value comes from perceived quality, some people will pay more for that and for product development that doesnt involve simply copying someone elses products
 
Matt said:
having owned an Iphone, a Samsung S3, a current Nokia and some tablets, the build of the iphone is better by some way, the galaxy is a lot of plastic, the nokia 930 is on a par with the apple device but has a plastic back.

I have an ipad and a samsung tablet, the ipad is built better and is more sturdy, the samsung is cheaper build.

As a manufacturer of a premium product brand, i'd say that the 'premium' tag is quality and customer care/service/added value. Perceived value comes from perceived quality, some people will pay more for that and for product development that doesnt involve simply copying someone elses products
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To be fair the S3 is a long way from the S5.
 
but it was the phone i got AFTER the iphone, I cant compare what i havent used.
 
Matt said:
but it was the phone i got AFTER the iphone, I cant compare what i havent used.
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So the build of the iphone WAS better at the time ;)
Just sayin' ;)
 
yes indeed, at the time

given that the new Alpha and iPhone 6 are roughly the same price, it would be logical to conclude they are aimed at the same market, but not owning either i cant comment on their build
 
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