What is the matter with parents :(

[arclight]

Who said the baby was killed by the dog? Everybody jumping to conclusions again.

You are right, Elliot. Some things here do not tie up.

Apart from that. The father allegedly went to a pub for a night and bought a six year old 67kg Malmute from a guy who wanted rid of it and took it back to the house a few months before the baby was killed. That is looney tunes. If that is true then blame lies beyond the dog.

 

[big soft moose]

if that's true it tell you a lot about the sort of 'consideration' that these parents gave to everyone's safety (wasn't the January case a similar , boyfriend moved in and brought his pitbull with him saga - dog was regularly found roaming the streets and had recently killed a cat)

Personally I love malamutes - I'd have one in a heartbeat (I'm fairly sure my collie wouldn't approve though) , but I'd have to get one from a recognised breeder as a puppy and bring it up to be well trained and behaved - I wouldn't be buying it "off a bloke in a pub"

 

[Gremlin]

to have the dog bite someone while its on a lead is just bonkers - I mean WTF is the owner doing ? tbh if a dog bites while its on the lead its either so badly behaved that it should have been muzzled (and or not taken out in public in the first place ) or the owner is a dimwit who isn't paying attention to what is going on with their dog.

small child runs up to your dog while its on a lead the options are simple either pull the dog away or say '**** of you little brat' or words to that effect

Strangely I do agree with you on that, just pointing out that it is when my dogs were on leads that I had most encounters with uncontrolled brats, didn't say they
would attack, but you also have to realise that just because a dog is on a lead doesn't mean it's under control, ever see one on one those bloody awful extender leads
that should be banned

 

[Cobra]

I currently am away with 7 and all do what I ask without me thinking I'm top dog,

But that is exactly what you are, they are looking to you for guidance.
Without guidance they'll soon start to re-asses the hierarchy, and power struggle will start, among themselves.

it's all based on trust and respect

And that is exactly how the "Alpha" in any pack controls the subordinates.
The minute the Alpha is to weak to command respect, they lose control and fighting breaks out,
the old Alpha is driven from the pack, the young pretenders fight among themselves, for top dog position.

 

[Gremlin]

But that is exactly what you are, they are looking to you for guidance.
Without guidance they'll soon start to re-asses the hierarchy, and power struggle will start, among themselves.


And that is exactly how the "Alpha" in any pack controls the subordinates.
The minute the Alpha is to weak to command respect, they lose control and fighting breaks out,
the old Alpha is driven from the pack, the young pretenders fight among themselves, for top dog position.

Sorry got to disagree with you there, a dog that is badly treated and beaten will still obey it's owner because it's doesn't know
any different
A true Alpha never shows any serious violence towards pack members, they don't need to, and if they do they lose
respect and will be ousted

 

[lizzy23]

I am not pack leader at all I don't dominate, they go through doors before me, definitely get fed before me, and are currently sprawled all over me, they do what I ask, because they've been trained to with kindness and patience, if I subscribed to pack theory none of that would be happening, the guy who originally did the study on pack theory has now come out and said it was flawed


Sent from my iPhone using Talk Photography Forums

 

[Cobra]

Sorry got to disagree with you there, a dog that is badly treated and beaten will still obey it's owner because it's doesn't know
any different
A true Alpha never shows any serious violence towards pack members, they don't need to, and if they do they lose
respect and will be ousted

An Alpha will and does chastise as it deems appropriate,
Sometimes a pack does need ruling by fear, especially if the Alpha is starting to weaken and
the threat of challenge is there.

I am not pack leader at all I don't dominate, they go through doors before me, definitely get fed before me, and are currently sprawled all over me, they do what I ask, because they've been trained to with kindness and patience,

I never once suggested that you beat your dogs, were cruel to your dogs, or that you need to beat dogs to control them.
You have their respect as you said, and they look to you for guidance.
OK so you are at the bottom of the "puppy pile" (sofa bundle)
And as the Alpha are being protected by the pack.

Quite frequently the Alpha will do the grooming, as you do, and of course the dogs will roll over and bare their soft tissue,
As a mark of respect and subordination.

There are just so many little "triggers" that people miss in day to day life,
of a dogs natural behavior.
Most of it is now very subtle though.

Missing these triggers unfortunately can and has led to tragedy

 

[george g]

Sadly, I feel the only thing to come from a second child's death is a knee jerk reaction of scared parents kicking out dogs and overloading charities/shelters that don't have the capacity...

I think something that is overlooked or just ignored by many is a dogs body language. Regardless of which mentality of dog training you buy into (I am a big believer that not every way of training works for all dogs...), a dog gives off so many messages. Once you understand or can at least recognise those then you have some much more trust in your dog and thus can give them much more confidence when out and about.

 

[Gremlin]

An Alpha will and does chastise as it deems appropriate,
Sometimes a pack does need ruling by fear, especially if the Alpha is starting to weaken and
the threat of challenge is there.

Chastise yes, but never out and out violence that some of the human race seems to feel necessary to
control animals
Being challenged as the leader is a different thing entirely

Dominant is another word I abhor, a dog showing aggression is just that, and should never be tolerated any more
then bullying should

 

[lizzy23]

Sorry dogs aren't dominant, very very few are born aggressive, they have either been made aggressive by humans or are using aggression because they are frightened unsure scared or in pain they have no other way of communicating just my experience I have fostered and rehomed over 70 dogs only 2 have shown true aggression with no triggers these for their own good were PTs, others have been worked with and turned around by understanding their body language and identifying their triggers, sadly I tend to agree with the previous poster, northern breeds have been the thing to own for a while now, consequently this has led to them being badly bred and owned by people that don't understand them, at the end of the day they are working dogs and need a home that understands what that means


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[Tigger.ufo]

All of the above just lead me back to the thread title..........

 

[akr]

Muzzle the dog if children are in the house- problem solved

Also while you have a point to an extent in neither of the recent cases were the parents fainted/had an accident/looking after another ill child - in the january case the mother had let her new boyfreind bring his pitbull round and then left it unsupervised with the child ... not very clever (In fact didnt the police arrest both of them on charges of neglect)

Sure, but in practise I can't imagine a family will young children will have their dog(s) muzzled at home all day and night.

 

[big soft moose]

and the kids are at large in the house in the same room as the dog all day and all night - don't these kids go to nursery, to school, out shopping with a parent, to friends houses etc , at night doesn't their room have a door that shuts (or the dog have a room or a crate in which it sleeps), plus the dog presumably goes for walks and isn't in the house 24/7 anyway

in practice you are only talking about a few hours each day in which kids and dog would be interacting - and then its only necessary to muzzle the dog if a parent can't guarantee to supervise the interaction - which a lot of parents can

 

[ghoti]

Crazy how we just let any old yahoo take large carnivorous predators out in public.

 

[akr]

and the kids are at large in the house in the same room as the dog all day and all night - don't these kids go to nursery, to school, out shopping with a parent, to friends houses etc , at night doesn't their room have a door that shuts (or the dog have a room or a crate in which it sleeps), plus the dog presumably goes for walks and isn't in the house 24/7 anyway

in practice you are only talking about a few hours each day in which kids and dog would be interacting - and then its only necessary to muzzle the dog if a parent can't guarantee to supervise the interaction - which a lot of parents can

Well my oldest is 3 and he can open his door himself. I don't have a dog so no idea how childproof those are against a 4/6 year old.

I accept your point that it unlikely to be 24hrs a day we are talking about, but my point re the original post is I don't think it's viable 24/7. I may be wrong of course.

 

[big soft moose]

may be teach him not to ? or shut the dog in a room with a lock on the door ,or in a crate

its not a full solution , granted - but for those parents who don't feel able to keep a careful eye on their children its an option.

that said given the number of other hazards in the average house - fires, electrical sockets, kettles, stairs etc (all of which cause more harm to children each year than dogs do), I'd still favour keeping an eye on what little kids are doing as the key safety measure.

 

[Gazamonk]

Certain acronyms are of course acceptable every day language, within given fields.
GSD, GSP, HPR etc are well know within the dog world.
Others that people make them up to suit themselves however only serve to confuse issues.

Cobra are you trying to say I made up "BFLD which is KOALWITHFAW" lol

Hope this helps

PMSL I like it.

 

[big soft moose]

When I was a little kid we had first a boxer , then a wolf hound - I don't recall being alone with either of them at any time - although it was a clear rule that you didn't go down stairs between bed time , and when mum came to get you up (toilet was upstairs) - I don't recall this being a hardship , in the unlikely event that I woke up before getting up time there were toys to play with, books to read etc and so forth.

there was a door at the bottom of the stairs that was shut , and the dog slept in the hall in front of the front door - where he was quite happy (he probably felt he was guarding his people - I do remember one night when I was about 8 when some halfwit decided to try and break in - he got a hell of a shock when he encountered something about the size of a small bear in the hall way

 

[akr]

may be teach him not to ? or shut the dog in a room with a lock on the door ,or in a crate

its not a full solution , granted - but for those parents who don't feel able to keep a careful eye on their children its an option.

that said given the number of other hazards in the average house - fires, electrical sockets, kettles, stairs etc (all of which cause more harm to children each year than dogs do), I'd still favour keeping an eye on what little kids are doing as the key safety measure.

I think we could drag this out forever so I'll leave it there, I think we've both made our points and are not miles apart in our views.

 

[Yv]

An Alpha will and does chastise as it deems appropriate,
Sometimes a pack does need ruling by fear, especially if the Alpha is starting to weaken and
the threat of challenge is there.


I never once suggested that you beat your dogs, were cruel to your dogs, or that you need to beat dogs to control them.
You have their respect as you said, and they look to you for guidance.
OK so you are at the bottom of the "puppy pile" (sofa bundle)
And as the Alpha are being protected by the pack.

Quite frequently the Alpha will do the grooming, as you do, and of course the dogs will roll over and bare their soft tissue,
As a mark of respect and subordination.

There are just so many little "triggers" that people miss in day to day life,
of a dogs natural behavior.
Most of it is now very subtle though.

Missing these triggers unfortunately can and has led to tragedy

I hate doing this, I really do.... I will never live it down..... but *deep breath* Chris is Right. There, I said it....


oh and despite what the media might tell you, 'dominant' does NOT mean aggressive, certainly not generally, certainly not when related to pack behaviour amongst dogs or any other social animal [primates, etc]. That isn't to say that the dominant animal will never be aggressive in every case, in some cases it is and the pack will still be subservient, hence abused dogs still cling to the owner afflicting the abuse. In some cases it may only use aggression as a 'last resort' and in some cases there will never be any signs of 'aggression' yet still the pecking order is happily maintained.

 

[Tigger.ufo]

I hate doing this, I really do.... I will never live it down..... but *deep breath* Chris is Right. There, I said it....

I'm sure there is some sort of therapy out there............

 

[Gremlin]

oh and despite what the media might tell you, 'dominant' does NOT mean aggressive, certainly not generally, certainly not when related to pack behaviour amongst dogs or any other social animal [primates, etc]. That isn't to say that the dominant animal will never be aggressive in every case, in some cases it is and the pack will still be subservient, hence abused dogs still cling to the owner afflicting the abuse. In some cases it may only use aggression as a 'last resort' and in some cases there will never be any signs of 'aggression' yet still the pecking order is happily maintained.

I don't hold a lot with what the media says Yvonne, I'm talking of experience and when someone says their dog is "dominant" because every time they try to do something the dog shows signs of aggression so it must dominant.
They walk away and the dog learns that growling/snarling/snapping and sometimes even biting gets it what it wants.
I've dealt with this type of dog, you just have to be consistent, not cruel but it does need to know that NO means NO and
a command is to be obeyed.
I hate this new thing about ignoring bad behavior and praising good, it's got us where we are today with badly behaved dogs and kids
Alpha or as some call it dominant dogs will chastise others but rarely do any physical damage as each pack member is needed in some role
and too valuable to lose through injury.
Dogs have been engineered to retain a lot of puppy like characteristics in pet situations, hence some of the more primitive breeds that are becoming
popular don't do well when the become the latest fashion must have.

Sorry dogs aren't dominant, very very few are born aggressive, they have either been made aggressive by humans or are using aggression because they are frightened unsure scared or in pain they have no other way of communicating

It's the old nature versus nurture argument Liz and one that I do agree with you on, there are some dogs born with aggressive tendancy but they can be controlled with good upbringing, unless you have one like I took on that had a brain imbalance due to inbreeding, sadly that ended with PTS at a far to young an age for everyone's safety

 

[nilagin]

Whats ISO ?

Insufficient Sun Outside.

 

[Gremlin]

Insufficient Sun Outside.

PMSL

 

[Yv]

I don't hold a lot with what the media says Yvonne, I'm talking of experience and when someone says their dog is "dominant" because every time they try to do something the dog shows signs of aggression so it must dominant.
They walk away and the dog learns that growling/snarling/snapping and sometimes even biting gets it what it wants.
I've dealt with this type of dog, you just have to be consistent, not cruel but it does need to know that NO means NO and
a command is to be obeyed.
I hate this new thing about ignoring bad behavior and praising good, it's got us where we are today with badly behaved dogs and kids
Alpha or as some call it dominant dogs will chastise others but rarely do any physical damage as each pack member is needed in some role
and too valuable to lose through injury.
Dogs have been engineered to retain a lot of puppy like characteristics in pet situations, hence some of the more primitive breeds that are becoming
popular don't do well when the become the latest fashion must have.



It's the old nature versus nurture argument Liz and one that I do agree with you on, there are some dogs born with aggressive tendancy but they can be controlled with good upbringing, unless you have one like I took on that had a brain imbalance due to inbreeding, sadly that ended with PTS at a far to young an age for everyone's safety

We are actually saying the same thing then, what dominant means has become totally distorted when talking about dog behaviour [and FWIW, it is due in part to some dog trainers using it incorrectly imo]. A dog showing aggression can actually be completely the opposite to 'dominant' and pretty sure like me, you have seen such dogs. I do get why you hate the word though, given the way it is used.

 

[Cobra]

the guy who originally did the study on pack theory has now come out and said it was flawed

And you base all that on "Nameless guy" out of thousands of animal
behaviorists? who's name either escapes you or is not important to mention?

All of the above just lead me back to the thread title..........

Fair point well presented
(And yes I did get it )

Cobra are you trying to say I made up "BFLD which is KOALWITHFAW" lol
.

The thought did cross my mind

I hate doing this, I really do.... I will never live it down..... but *deep breath* Chris is Right. There, I said it....

You'll get over it

Insufficient Sun Outside.

Back on track..................
There are two totally separate behavioral issues being discussed here, And unfortunately some are refusing to see one of them.
Using the argue, "I'm always kind to my dogs"
"I train my dogs with kindness".
Its not about the training methods, it's how the dogs see you.
You are in charge (hopefully) and they look to you for guidance.
AKA....................

I also neither subscribe to the habit / belief of Anthropomorphism, or personification.
This always reminds me of the little toy breeds that are dressed up to look like their owners,
or in cute little dress's / tux's

From the early days when the wolves first started scrounging bones / left overs at the cave mans camp fire,
the initially un-easy symbiotic relationship was formed,
they look to up for warmth and food, we looked to them for protection.
And so it has been down through the ages.

Had we not had the presence of mind during those times, to prove who indeed was the dominate species,
we may well have been second course on the menu.

So you don't need to beat a dog into submission.
Just prove, by using their own instincts, who is the Alpha.

Who can deny the fact that when a pup has played up, they've not "nipped it" on the ear,
just like Mum would have.

Or an over boisterous "teenager" (Particularly a larger breed) "testing the hierarchy" in a play fight,
has not been flipped over, to expose its soft parts?
(But of course the worse that happened was they got their tummy / neck rubbed )

So yes, as they don't understand "our social structure", we are using their's to "prove" who in fact the Alpha in the "domestic pack"

 

[big soft moose]

I think the nameless guy is probably Cesar Milan - and what he's said is not that pack theory is flawed (Pack theory is pretty much proven if you look at for example the Theberge's work with wolves in canada, or shuan ellis with wolves in captivity in the uk) but that his interpretation of how it is implemented in dog training has changed - He's come in for a lot of grief about alledgedly reccomending spiked training collars / electric shock collars , and I think he said recently that he doesn't hold with these methods (which have bugger all to do with "pack theory" anyway , they are more a cruel version of aversion therapy)

 

[Cobra]

I think the nameless guy is probably Cesar Milan - and what he's said is not that pack theory is flawed (Pack theory is pretty much proven if you look at for example the Theberge's work with wolves in canada, or shuan ellis with wolves in captivity in the uk) but that his interpretation of how it is implemented in dog training has changed - He's come in for a lot of grief about alledgedly reccomending spiked training collars / electric shock collars , and I think he said recently that he doesn't hold with these methods (which have bugger all to do with "pack theory" anyway , they are more a cruel version of aversion therapy)

Ah OK it just had to be an American / Mexican
Of course our new world counterparts were/ and probably still are, heavily in favour of the shock collar,
and they were used in the UK for awhile too.
Until the public out cry, and were subsequently banned.
Actually scrtatch that, I thought they were, seems not, and they are still available.

 

[big soft moose]

I've always thought the guy was a complete a******e myself

 

[Gremlin]

I think the nameless guy is probably Cesar Milan

The guy that also advocates the alpha roll (arghhhh) that Chris mentioned, a glorified dog handler who advocates cruelty to train dogs, I doubt he has any theories or knowledge of pack behaviour
I think Liz is probably talking about L. David Mech who lived with and studied wolves for many years

Using the argue, "I'm always kind to my dogs"
"I train my dogs with kindness".
Its not about the training methods, it's how the dogs see you.
You are in charge (hopefully) and they look to you for guidance.
AKA....................

and that's where I say the ignore that bad and praise the good behaviour is wrong.
My dogs were always told with a firm NO that something wasn't allowed, if the stopped they
were praised. I have never gone in for treat training either, my own dogs have always
been happy with praise when they get it right

I also neither subscribe to the habit / belief of Anthropomorphism, or personification.
This always reminds me of the little toy breeds that are dressed up to look like their owners,
or in cute little dress's / tux's

Bugger couldn't agree more

So you don't need to beat a dog into submission.
Just prove, by using their own instincts, who is the Alpha.
Who can deny the fact that when a pup has played up, they've not "nipped it" on the ear,
just like Mum would have

Observation from my own dogs is very much that who took the lead role depended very
much on the resources available and how much one particular dog wanted it.
and no I haven't nipped a pup, I'm not it's mum so why would I

Or an over boisterous "teenager" (Particularly a larger breed) "testing the hierarchy" in a play fight,
has not been flipped over, to expose its soft parts?
(But of course the worse that happened was they got their tummy / neck rubbed )

Hmmm the infamous alpha roll, yes I have done it in the past and meant it, but it's not something I would ever recommend
get it wrong and you can get injured.

One thing that always annoys me is dogs that jump up
cutsie little puppies doing it may be fine but a large adult dog is no fun,
stop it early and you won't have a problem
Same with food protection, I have always firmly believed that I should be take
anything away from my dogs, you never know when they are going to get hold of something
that may harm them, even my iffy GSP who came to me with serious problems learnt
this quite quickly

 

[Yves Geza]

Same with food protection, I have always firmly believed that I should be take
anything away from my dogs, you never know when they are going to get hold of something
that may harm them,

Isn't that pure dominant behaviour on your part? Surely that's how your dogs see it!

From what I learnt, when I read Psychology at University, I think that pecking order in the pack is the best single way to understand most dog behaviour - and much cat behaviour too, if it comes to that, for they live naturally in groups even though they hunt alone!

I've been a dog owner most of my adult life, but it's only been in the past few years when we've had two dogs and assorted visitors, that I've observed just how important pack position is for a dog - not to be top dog and rule the roost, but to know exactly where they stand in the scheme of things.

 

[Yv]

Ah OK it just had to be an American / Mexican
Of course our new world counterparts were/ and probably still are, heavily in favour of the shock collar,
and they were used in the UK for awhile too.
Until the public out cry, and were subsequently banned.
Actually scrtatch that, I thought they were, seems not, and they are still available.

there is a big campaign going on at the moment to get them banned.

 

[big soft moose]

I've been a dog owner most of my adult life, but it's only been in the past few years when we've had two dogs and assorted visitors, that I've observed just how important pack position is for a dog - not to be top dog and rule the roost, but to know exactly where they stand in the scheme of things.

How do your dogs view the pride of felines they share the space with ? do they see them as part of their pack too ?

 

[Yves Geza]

How do your dogs view the pride of felines they share the space with ? do they see them as part of their pack too ?

In many ways, yes. They'll all cuddle up together in any order on a sofa; the dogs only ever growl at the cats if they come near their bowls when they're eating although we can take any food from any animal [the cats learnt that limit quite quickly]; the dogs can't deal with cats occupying their cage bed and are tragically put out when a cat declines to move; they'll all sniff each other when either species comes in from outside and finally, if the dogs run to "answer" the front door, there's usually a cat or two following not far behind, curious to see what the excitement is about!

 

[big soft moose]

*resists temptation to ask how Yv fits into this menageries pecking order *

 

[Yv]

*resists temptation to ask how Yv fits into this menageries pecking order *

right at the top, obviously.... what you should really ask is where Yves Geza fits in the pecking order.... [it might change depending on the quality of the bacon butties I get for breakfast on my b/day next week ]

 

[Yves Geza]

Where I fit into the pecking order depends entirely on where we are in the month's Credit Card cycle!!

 

[Cobra]

there is a big campaign going on at the moment to get them banned.

That was running 10 years ago IIRC and I thought that it had been successful.
Actually a quick Google tells me that Wales banned the use of nearly 4 years ago. (March 2010)

In many ways, yes. They'll all cuddle up together in any order on a sofa; the dogs only ever growl at the cats if they come near their bowls when they're eating although we can take any food from any animal [the cats learnt that limit quite quickly]; the dogs can't deal with cats occupying their cage bed and are tragically put out when a cat declines to move; they'll all sniff each other when either species comes in from outside and finally, if the dogs run to "answer" the front door, there's usually a cat or two following not far behind, curious to see what the excitement is about!

Absolutely my observations too.
And as an addendum,
in years passed, when I used to walk the Rotty x Alsatian (GSD if you prefer)
on its final sortie of the night,
I'd have a couple of moggies as wing men.
The minute that another dog appeared on the scene, the wing men were straight under cover of the belly of the beast.
So yes they are most certainly part of the pack.
And looking to the stronger member for protection.

 

[j15000]

Is s shame more children's life's have been lost where it so easily could have been avoided.
Personally I own dogs and I like others think they wouldn't hurt a fly, would I leave then unattended with children, will that would be deffinate nono. Simple rule of thumb never leave dogs alone with children if any age.
But ontop of that I firmly believe the law should not be against certain breeds of dogs, IMHO is the deed not the breed..

Still sad and couldn't even begin to imagine what the families involed are going through.

 

[Gremlin]

Isn't that pure dominant behaviour on your part? Surely that's how your dogs see it!

From what I learnt, when I read Psychology at University, I think that pecking order in the pack is the best single way to understand most dog behaviour - and much cat behaviour too, if it comes to that, for they live naturally in groups even though they hunt alone!

I've been a dog owner most of my adult life, but it's only been in the past few years when we've had two dogs and assorted visitors, that I've observed just how important pack position is for a dog - not to be top dog and rule the roost, but to know exactly where they stand in the scheme of things.

I've had multiple dogs most of my life, and can honestly say I have never notice a distinct hierarchy, it changes according to circumstances and whats on offer.
I truly do not believe that you can compare dog behaviour in a domestic situation with wolf packs, and more then we can use chimpanzees to explain our own
ways.
Like children they need guidelines and boundaries that we have to teach them and stick to them, I don't want robot dogs that do everything instantly and stay glued
my side, any more then I believe in the old sayings about kids, but both have to taught right from wrong and to respect others