XL Bullies ? do we need to take harder action?

Such a tragic event, my sympathy goes to the family.

The report you linked to and the news this morning both state that the breed of the dogs has yet to be confirmed ?
Banning breeds of dogs has already proved to be ineffective, they will just be replaced by something else.

The laws we already have aren't enforced, law abiding owners who's dog never have been a problem abide by them,
others don't bother and nothing is done
 
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A report I saw was that the dogs were owned by a family member, and there were six puppies as well; the owner had advised the deceased lady to stick a broom in amongst the puppies if they were getting a bit bothersome - so the adult dogs probably attacked the puppies' perceived attacker. I hope they throw the book at the owner for being a likely unlicensed breeder and not keeping them properly etc. Poor dogs got shot for what they did, the owner will likely get a small fine. And still have the puppies to mistreat. The poor woman should never have been put in the situation of babysitting a young child and all those dogs.
 
lindsay said:
I hope they throw the book at the owner for being a likely unlicensed breeder and not keeping them properly etc.
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I doubt it, the amount of unchipped dogs that are found wandering just shows how the laws on microchipping are enforced
Those pups would have been sold for a lot of money regardless of the laws, might harsh but for their own sakes I hope they too are PTS rather then being shut up for life. They can't be rehomed if they are XL Bullies so the owner won't want to be left with them, registering and nuteuring won't be cheap
 
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Banning breeds does not work. Take pitbulls banned years ago. Now every dog that resembles a pitbull is claimed to be a cross so not subject to the ban. At least thats how I understand it I could be wrong ( according to SWMBO Im always wrong (even when I right))
 
As a competitive pistol shooter who lost all my handguns post Dunblane because of one nutter from whom the local police wanted to remove his FAC and guns but were overruled, as far as I am concerned, they should be prohibited and if seen shot on sight
 
It's true (above). The terrible thing is that almost all the dogs we come across around here when walking our Collie is aggressive towards him, lunging, barking and growling, and he does nothing except look bewildered and wag his tail. Loads of dogs acquired as puppies during the pandemic are booted into the garden to be out of the way, especially if the weather isn't great, and just shouted at or worse much of the time. Of course they are aggressive, they are badly treated, not taught boundaries, and not socialised properly. Like so many things these days, there should be effective enforcement of ownership rules, but there isn't.
 
As already said it’s the owners that are the issue, some people are just selfish and antisocial and should not be allowed to keep any animals
I’ve had a few worrying occasions when out with my camera with agressive dogs not on a lead on one occasion the owner thought that it was funny
I have decided to take a monopod with large ball head with me while I’m out where there maybe dog walkers at least that may be some sort of defense
 
Brazo said:
Yes to the OP’s question but this is also a Chav issue and that sector of society are almost always behind these problems which are just one of many symptoms of their existence.
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The vast majority of people who own this breed does it for one reason only - the perceived status of owning a very dangerous dog. The owners have less brain cells than the dogs - a very dangerous combination.
 
lindsay said:
A report I saw was that the dogs were owned by a family member, and there were six puppies as well; the owner had advised the deceased lady to stick a broom in amongst the puppies if they were getting a bit bothersome - so the adult dogs probably attacked the puppies' perceived attacker. I hope they throw the book at the owner for being a likely unlicensed breeder and not keeping them properly etc. Poor dogs got shot for what they did, the owner will likely get a small fine. And still have the puppies to mistreat. The poor woman should never have been put in the situation of babysitting a young child and all those dogs.
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Exactly my thoughts regarding getting between puppies and their mother. James Herriot told the story of inspecting a Great Dane who had recently given birth. He asked the owner to get some hot water, and being alone in the same room was enough for the dog to go for him. With the aid of a chair, he managed to fend it off and get out of the room.

The underlying problem with XL Bullies is that they are seriously inbred. 50% of all these dogs are related to one dog Killer Kimbo, and he himself has the same great grandfather four times over. Despite claims of other breeds of dog being incorporated, they are basically inbred Pitbulls. When they attack, they are so powerful that they are virtually unstoppable. One of Kimbo's offspring is known as the Juggernaut.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/breeder-xl-bully-ancestor-half-27731316
 
interesting thoughts all
nut yeah i think they all need to be rounded up myself and put down and all forms of ownership banned
 
troutfisher said:
As a competitive pistol shooter who lost all my handguns post Dunblane because of one nutter from whom the local police wanted to remove his FAC and guns but were overruled, as far as I am concerned, they should be prohibited and if seen shot on sight
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good point that about the guns and even though yes it stopped people using guns in sport it was the right thing to do the ban
 
kennethwfd said:
When they attack, they are so powerful that they are virtually unstoppable. One of Kimbo's offspring is known as the Juggernaut.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/breeder-xl-bully-ancestor-half-27731316
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Someone at our church has a pitbull type dog and it's incredibly strong. It's a lovely natured dog, just lovely, but surprisingly strong. I've handled big dogs before and I am quite strong but the strength of this dog came as a complete surprise to me. I did not expect a dog of that size to be so strong.

I do agree that owners are the problem in many and maybe most cases. It's difficult to know what to suggest be done as in reality only responsible owners will comply with any law and the legal system doesn't really seem to want to deal effectively with law breakers.

PS.
Just on dogs and the police.
I couple of years ago I came home to find a dog in our back garden and when it saw me it went ballistic and it was very very agressive. I went inside and phoned the police because this was very unusual and in fact it had never happened before and also because we're near a school so there would soon be lots of children and their parents about and I was genuinely worried about this quite disturbed and agressive dog and what could happen. I did tell the call handler all this but she couldn't have been more bored and indifferent and snotty. What she said was "We don't have anyone to respond to That. Sir."
I do wonder if it happened again would the police handler take something like this seriously? Maybe.
 
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My vet says most dog bites are from Labs. The issue with pit bulls and these XL's isnt so much the dogs as the way they are encouraged to be aggressive. The owners mostly wanting a "well hard dog" this is all well and good until the dog has a bad day or someone frightens it, then all hell is let loose and the dogs get the blame
Err indoors used to keep staffies (quite a lot of them) and they are the daftest cudly dogs you could wish to have, great with children if they are reared properly.
As someone said it's mostly the owners are the problem.
 
Regarding Labs, they used to be so nice, Andrex dogs. Now most that I come across are aggressive and nasty, and it has to be because intelligent trainable dogs are being inadequately exercised and entertained - they need brain exercise as well as physical, they are working animals essentially. Our Collie is so good because he walks about 8-10 miles a day in 4 walks with my wife and I, and has challenges with toys.
 
kennethwfd said:
Killer Kimbo, and he himself has the same great grandfather four times over.
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Impossible grandfather / great grandfather is a one shot deal.
If the Gt Father sired 4 different bitches then he would be related to the offspring, siblings, once removed, ( or twice depending on where the line went)to put it in human terms.
edit If you were to breed with your own grandmother, that would make you both father and related siblings to the off spring.
But not your own grandfather.
 
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The exact quote is

Killer Kimbo is so inbred he has the same great grandfather four times over
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from Wales online
 
kennethwfd said:
The exact quote is


from Wales online
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News papers Eh? as above it's impossible.
You may have missed my edit

Cobra said:
If you were to breed with your own grandmother, that would make you both father and related siblings to the off spring.
But not your own grandfather.
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Dogs are like children, they need to be trained from birth. Unlike cats, who just do what they want, when they want :rolleyes:
 
Jelster said:
Dogs are like children, they need to be trained from birth. Unlike cats, who just do what they want, when they want :rolleyes:
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nah thats not true , these dogs XL bullies have been bred from the worst of pit bulls to be extremely violent and dangerous and as people (owners even) have said they have had perfect dogs for years then a car backfires out on the street and the dog rips there babies face off...... border collies don't do that do they?
 
Jelster said:
Unlike cats, who just do what they want, when they want :rolleyes:
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TBH it sounds like a lot of children are heading that way as well.
 
Mr Bump said:
good point that about the guns and even though yes it stopped people using guns in sport it was the right thing to do the ban
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No, because the problem gun owners are almost always the illegal owners. Guns are inanimate objects that are only dangerous when the wrong people have them.

Dogs bred specifically to attack are inherently dangerous, although that danger is always much greater when they are owned by the wrong people.

In some countries, dog ownership is controlled, to keep the wrong people from having them, in this country, there are no controls on dog ownership.

Mr Bump said:
nah thats not true , these dogs XL bullies have been bred from the worst of pit bulls to be extremely violent and dangerous and as people (owners even) have said they have had perfect dogs for years then a car backfires out on the street and the dog rips there babies face off...... border collies don't do that do they?
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Border collies are bred for a specific job, and the ones that both have no work to do and that have a strong working instinct are potentially dangerous.
 
On my daily walks the dogs I most often have issues with are collies and labs.

I'm fairly sure it's because chav d******d f***wits don't have the emotional or empathic intelligence to understand that these dogs need mental stimulation.
 
swanseamale47 said:
My vet says most dog bites are from Labs. The issue with pit bulls and these XL's isnt so much the dogs as the way they are encouraged to be aggressive. The owners mostly wanting a "well hard dog" this is all well and good until the dog has a bad day or someone frightens it, then all hell is let loose and the dogs get the blame
Err indoors used to keep staffies (quite a lot of them) and they are the daftest cudly dogs you could wish to have, great with children if they are reared properly.
As someone said it's mostly the owners are the problem.
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I've only seen two XL Bullies. One was with its owner in London's Soho, and looked as if it was for the owners protection, trained to be 'tough'. The other was a youngster travelling on the front seat of a windscreen replacement van with its owner. It was good natured, was being trained, and I had no worries making a fuss of it. At one time it was leaning out of the vans window 'crying' loudly for attention from its owner who was replacing my windscreen. I suspect this good natured XL was likely in the minority.
 
Mr Bump said:
border collies don't do that do they?
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Some of the worst dogs I have ever met have been Border Collies, both at work with RM and volunteering in rescue, labs could be nasty too. One problem is people believe that some breeds will be friendly and are then shocked when they aren't
I'm not a fan of bull breeds, would never want one, but in general they are nice dogs, when bought up by caring owners, met a few pitbulls and never had a problem
I don't conform to the nature versus nurture argument either, I've lived with aggressive dogs, never felt threatened by them myself and never put them in a situation where others would be, in all cases it was due to a bad start in life, not socialised or trained.
The old saying "Judge the deed not the breed" comes to mind, as a long time GSD owner I know how that feels, still at least the Pits and XL bullies have taken the heat off GSDs and Rotties
 
simon ess said:
On my daily walks the dogs I most often have issues with are collies and labs.

I'm fairly sure it's because chav d******d f***wits don't have the emotional or empathic intelligence to understand that these dogs need mental stimulation.
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Yes.
But the problem goes much deeper, as I said before, dogs have been bred for centuries to do a specific job of work, not to look pretty. When people are stupid enough to buy a dog without knowing what it was bred to do, problems are almost bound to result.

My own history . . . From about 1970 I trained dogs for obedience competition, and competed at Championship level. My first competition dog was a crossbred spaniel, all of the others were German Shepherds and Border Collies, all extremely well-trained and kept very busy, all were perfect. When I stopped competing (young family, very long driving distances and shortage of time and money) I became a problem dog trainer. I was very successful and sorted out nearly all problem behaviour in one visit, basically training the owners but pretending to train the dogs:)

Guarding Breeds: Rottweilers, Doberman Pinchers, German and Belgian Shepherds, and many less popular ones. These dogs can be great, but they are intelligent, have a strong guarding instinct and need to have work to do.

Gundogs: Labradors (but black labs are generally OK, yellow labs less so and red labs very much less so:. Golden Retrievers, Flatcoat retrievers, poodles, Pointers, all generally OK because their instincts are there but not very strong. Weimerana bitches generally fine, entire dogs are often aggressive. Most spaniels are fine, Springers and Working Cockers are great but are always looking for work and desperately need to be busy all the time, which is why they are excellent as drug and search dogs.

Border Collies: As mentioned earlier, very intelligent and with a very strong working instinct. Bred for herding cattle and sheep, not as pets.

Corgies: Bred for herding cattle, nipping at their heels, so no surprise if they bite people too.

Hounds: Beagles, Bassets and similar, they just get their nose down and follow scents, most can't form a close relationship with humans.

Huskies: Bred to Pull, most can't form a close relationship with humans.

Fighting dogs: Pitbulls, XL Bully Dogs, Akitas. Often OK with people, unless they get over-excited, at which point their fighting instincts can take over.

Terriers of all kinds: Bred for killing rats, very likely to bite anything that moves quickly.

Inbreeding has always been a major problem, especially where there is a lot of money involved. It's the breeders who cause or exacerbate most of the problems. We have laws about incestual relationships/inbreeding with humans, but not with other animals, and this is wrong. If you want to know how badly inbreeding can affect people, look at the Habsburg dynasty - an extreme case, but all European royal families seem to have some degree of inbreeding. And, relating to inbreeding, is physical problems such as hip dysplasia, which affects all breeds except foxhounds. This can cripple dogs, and is extremely painful, and any dog that is in constant pain is likely to bite. Breeders are the main cause of these hereditary problems, but most just don't care.

Many people think that mongrels are best, and they have a point because most mongrels don't have a strong working instinct, and haven't been inbred. But exotic breeds are fashionable, mongrels aren't.
 
@Garry Edwards also to say great post but all it does for me is show that these XL bullie dogs are simply not real dogs they are genetic screw ups and we
need to nip this in the bud, these animals need all destroying , the govnmt should issue a ruling that owners have 6 months to hand them in for destruction , as what will be said when the next death occurs and it will for sure?

the guy has done an interview with the Sun

Speaking to the Sun newspaper, Ashley admitted he “didn’t believe all this stuff about the bullies” but that he now thinks the breed should be “wiped out”.

The 39-year-old said: “I did not know bullies were aggressive otherwise I wouldn’t have bought one. I didn’t believe all this stuff about the bullies.

“I thought it was all lies and people trying to kill off a breed of dog, but now I’ve learned the hard way and I wish I never had nothing to do with bullies. They’ve ruined my life. They’ve ruined my son’s life.”

Mr Warren moved from London to Jaywick to give his son “a fresh start” after the death of his son’s mum three years ago.

“I wanted [my son and his grandmother] to have a bond because my son’s mum; I knew that’s what she would’ve wanted,” he said.

His dogs, Beauty – a “happy dog” who was “never vicious” – and Bear, had 12 puppies in December last year but he was only able to find new homes for three of them before it became illegal to sell or give away an XL bully.

The rapper, also known as Wyless Man, said Ms Martin was “perfectly happy” to look after her grandson and the dogs while he filmed a music video in London.

He told the Sun: “She was comfortable and I said ‘are you sure you’re ok’ and she goes ‘yeah, I can manage. Just go and have a good time.’.

“When I got there, I started shooting the first little bit of video and my son rang me and he was in bits telling me ‘nanny tried to break up the dogs fighting and they pushed her over’. And I just told my son to get out the house because I wanted him to be safe and I didn’t know what was going on.”

He added: “All I’ve tried to do is better my son’s life and my life and me and Esther was happy. We had a better relationship now than we ever did before and we was really close before she passed and I’m just sorry for what Esther must’ve went through.”

Mr Warren was arrested on suspicion of dangerous dog offences and has since been released on conditional bail until March 5.
 
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Mr Bump said:
@Garry Edwards

Speaking to the Sun newspaper,
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The Sun "newspaper (of Hillsborough fame) spoke to me, many years ago, when they were running a campaign to ban Rottweilers, which they referred to as "Devil Dogs" This was about the time of the Dangerous Dogs Act. They wanted to interview me because I was in the news at the time, having had to stop a Rottweiler attack, which I did very effectively but lethally. They offered to pay me very well for the interview, but they lost interest when I told them that any ban should be on the type of people who typically bought Rottweilers and not on the dogs themselves. So, whether or not the person who is now at risk of criminal proceedings did say that to them or not, the fact that it was printed in "The Sun" doesn't impress me.

I agree - sort of - that these XL Bully dogs are likely to be a real problem, but they will naturally die out in a few years, and the ones owned by apparently responsible people who have registered them shouldn't be much of a problem, as there will be no further legal breeding, and they will be muzzled when in public places. The real problem, as always, will be from the dogs owned by the chavs who ignore the law, and from the people who breed them, and who will now just breed something slightly different but just as dangerous.

I could make the same comments about guns owned by criminals and cars driven by criminals - laws that are not enforced don't protect the innocent, and legislating against the means of committing the crime doesn't solve the problem.

What's needed is effective enforcement, introducing new laws only affects law-abiding people.
 
I hope they do literally die out very soon but not before we have I think quite a few nasty deaths caused in "the home" where these dogs will be unmuzzled and mixing with people, also they will become even more anti social being restricted with mixing in other environments , its a flash fire waiting to happen.
 
Mr Bump said:
@Garry Edwards also to say great post but all it does for me is show that these XL bullie dogs are simply not real dogs they are genetic screw ups and we
need to nip this in the bud, these animals need all destroying , the govnmt should issue a ruling that owners have 6 months to hand them in for destruction , as what will be said when the next death occurs and it will for sure?

the guy has done an interview with the Sun

Speaking to the Sun newspaper, Ashley admitted he “didn’t believe all this stuff about the bullies” but that he now thinks the breed should be “wiped out”.

The 39-year-old said: “I did not know bullies were aggressive otherwise I wouldn’t have bought one. I didn’t believe all this stuff about the bullies.

“I thought it was all lies and people trying to kill off a breed of dog, but now I’ve learned the hard way and I wish I never had nothing to do with bullies. They’ve ruined my life. They’ve ruined my son’s life.”

Mr Warren moved from London to Jaywick to give his son “a fresh start” after the death of his son’s mum three years ago.

“I wanted [my son and his grandmother] to have a bond because my son’s mum; I knew that’s what she would’ve wanted,” he said.

His dogs, Beauty – a “happy dog” who was “never vicious” – and Bear, had 12 puppies in December last year but he was only able to find new homes for three of them before it became illegal to sell or give away an XL bully.

The rapper, also known as Wyless Man, said Ms Martin was “perfectly happy” to look after her grandson and the dogs while he filmed a music video in London.

He told the Sun: “She was comfortable and I said ‘are you sure you’re ok’ and she goes ‘yeah, I can manage. Just go and have a good time.’.

“When I got there, I started shooting the first little bit of video and my son rang me and he was in bits telling me ‘nanny tried to break up the dogs fighting and they pushed her over’. And I just told my son to get out the house because I wanted him to be safe and I didn’t know what was going on.”

He added: “All I’ve tried to do is better my son’s life and my life and me and Esther was happy. We had a better relationship now than we ever did before and we was really close before she passed and I’m just sorry for what Esther must’ve went through.”

Mr Warren was arrested on suspicion of dangerous dog offences and has since been released on conditional bail until March 5.
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lol at Mr Warrens account. Call me sceptical…..
 
Brazo said:
lol at Mr Warrens account. Call me sceptical…..
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Potentially....edited for sympathetic effect and/or the result of very coached interview. The deceased grandmother is no longer here to ratify his interview of the 'facts as he saw them', up to the police to make their investigations and act on them in the wider interest?

But come what may as @Garry Edwards says, what is needed is stricter enforcement and not "hand wringing" after the event :(
 
When it comes to dogs everyone will have an opinion. In terms of XL bully’s I haven’t had one but I have had G.S.D’s, Akita’s and we recently got a staffy puppy. We have had lots of Jack Russel’s and Lab’s as well as a few other smaller breeds as well.

I know a few people that have XL’s and they are all experienced responsible dog owners. In all honestly there dogs have great temperament's and I would trust there dogs around people more than most.

All dogs need to be properly trained, socialised and have continuous engagement. Especially so with larger breeds not because they are inherently more aggressive but because a larger dog will simply do more damage if it bites. I very much believe in the nurture over nature argument. I don’t believe that banning a dog breed will make any difference. I do however think that there should be a lot more control over owners.

While researching what dog to go for when we recently got a new puppy XL’s appealed to me. I have always preferred larger breeds. This time though we decided that a medium sized dog would be a better option which is why we got a staffy instead. XL’s and Malanois which I also considered tend to attach themselves to one person, we wanted a dog that would attach themselves to all of us. We spent months deciding on a dog type that would suit our lifestyle. We knew after losing our Lab and Akita last year due to old age that we couldn’t have another one of those. Our lab was 18 and our Akita was 15 and we had them both from pups.

I can see the appeal of XL’s they make for beautiful pups and are great companions with the right owners. They seemed to get really popular over the pandemic but it seems to me that a lot of people got them without doing any sort of research on the amount of work needed to make them well rounded pets.

Because the internet knows everything when I look at my social media my feeds are full of dogs and in particular XL’s. Have seen some shocking videos of how some XL owners train there dogs. Teaching the dogs things like jumping up trees and attacking branches and teaching them to be aggressive when they hear the word “feds”. These people will just move on to other dogs and we will go again. It already seems that many of these types of people are getting Cane Corso’s.

Probably a pipe dream but I feel that owners should be licensed and only be allowed to own larger breeds after they have completed training etc. Almost like doing your driving test.
 
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andya700 said:
The vast majority of people who own this breed does it for one reason only - the perceived status of owning a very dangerous dog. The owners have less brain cells than the dogs - a very dangerous combination.
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It's hard to disagree with your strong statement. If you want a dog you have so many breeds to choose from and there is, like you say a reason people choose these types of dog.
 
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