The Inglorious Twelfth

jerry12953 said:
I don't think the main problem is removing the big landowners from the land. It is a fact that some/many of them have a policy of relentlessly removing much of the biodiversity (often illegally) from that land to benefit just one species - red grouse. It is also said that muirburn is a big problem as well - ie burning the vegetation on deep peat which releases the carbon dioxide stored there. I also think you're overstating the case that walkers and off-roaders would cause as much damage to wildlife that the current regimes do. I do agree with you about off-roaders, they're a real pain here in Wales, and difficult to control. But I couldn't say that walkers would be a big problem. Many of these moorlands are pretty vast and difficult to penetrate on foot.

How would you remove the landowners anyway? It's their land........
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When you claim landowners burn the vegetation on peat you do realise that's the only reason there is any peat.
Most of these areas would develop scrubby birch and gorse then naturally burn periodically.
But those fires would be much hotter than the quick flash over of controlled burn when peat is wet and the whole lot would go down to subsoil.
Our upland moorland areas have been much as they are since the iron age when people cleared land by cutting the manageable stuff to use and piling brash round bigger trees to burn so they died fell over.
Gradually the climate worsened got colder and wetter and peat overwhelmed any regenerating saplings.

The idea that moorland is a new thing developed entirely for Victorian grouse shooting is pure political drivel - apparently being pushed widely by those with an agenda that the only allowed ecology should be heavy tree cover shading everything else out.
 
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Cobra said:
At least there were no Alates this year in my garden, #saving the neighborhood 1000 ants at a time (y)
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But those female alates are tasty and nutritious morsels, quickly fried if you don’t fancy them raw.
 
sphexx said:
But those female alates are tasty and nutritious morsels, quickly fried if you don’t fancy them raw.
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Jeeeze that's be like feeding peanuts to elephants!
If I must eat insects, I'd settle for nothing less than deep fried in batter, Locusts. :)
 
Cobra said:
Jeeeze that's be like feeding peanuts to elephants!
If I must eat insects, I'd settle for nothing less than deep fried in batter, Locusts. :)
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What about balut? need less to fill a space :)
 
It reminds me of the old 1st date joke...
He said how would you like your eggs in the morning?
She said. unfertilized
 
4wd said:
When you claim landowners burn the vegetation on peat you do realise that's the only reason there is any peat.
Most of these areas would develop scrubby birch and gorse then naturally burn periodically.
But those fires would be much hotter than the quick flash over of controlled burn when peat is wet and the whole lot would go down to subsoil.
Our upland moorland areas have been much as they are since the iron age when people cleared land by cutting the manageable stuff to use and piling brash round bigger trees to burn so they died fell over.
Gradually the climate worsened got colder and wetter and peat overwhelmed any regenerating saplings.

The idea that moorland is a new thing developed entirely for Victorian grouse shooting is pure political drivel - apparently being pushed widely by those with an agenda that the only allowed ecology should be heavy tree cover shading everything else out.
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Virtually none of that is true......but we'll leave it at that.
 
Cobra said:
Jeeeze that's be like feeding peanuts to elephants!
If I must eat insects, I'd settle for nothing less than deep fried in batter, Locusts. :)
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You have to net them to get a decent quantity, unlike honeypot ants. I remember seeing film of people doing that with mosquito hatches on, I think, Victoria Nyanza :)
 
What's that big NZ bug? Weta, Google tells me and WIKI tells me a bit more. Drumstick, anyone?
 
A few years ago, I tried a bag of some sort of cricket. Tasted OK but that was almost all the flavouring rather than the beasties themselves. Slightly weird mouth feel but a quite satisfying crunch. Finished the bag but won't buy again.
 
Nod said:
A few years ago, I tried a bag of some sort of cricket. Tasted OK but that was almost all the flavouring rather than the beasties themselves. Slightly weird mouth feel but a quite satisfying crunch. Finished the bag but won't buy again.
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I think if they do get used more widely it would be ground up snd used in burgers or similar. Actually we’ve all been eating insects forever — there are permitted limits to insect part in flour for example.
 
jerry12953 said:
I don't think the main problem is removing the big landowners from the land. It is a fact that some/many of them have a policy of relentlessly removing much of the biodiversity (often illegally) from that land to benefit just one species - red grouse. It is also said that muirburn is a big problem as well - ie burning the vegetation on deep peat which releases the carbon dioxide stored there. I also think you're overstating the case that walkers and off-roaders would cause as much damage to wildlife that the current regimes do. I do agree with you about off-roaders, they're a real pain here in Wales, and difficult to control. But I couldn't say that walkers would be a big problem. Many of these moorlands are pretty vast and difficult to penetrate on foot.

How would you remove the landowners anyway? It's their land........
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Ah, the old muirburn - deep peat discussion.
 
jerry12953 said:
The legislation regarding mountain hares in Scotland came into force on August 1st 2021. Here is a summary of how it works -

https://www.nature.scot/doc/mountain-hare-licensing-guidance-applicants
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Jerry,, you know my piccies from that you can probably extrapolate how much a hare means to me and that's not my native bud,it's just somethiing here close to me that I can learn wildlife toggin from . a point of focus to try and learn/earn a skillset.

So someone killing a hare is kinda hard for me.lets say harsh. Yes I know timidus was shot in huge number and same with europeas...........but that stems from habitats created by man lets say shooters . For sure the tweaks in these habitats both an upland shoot and lowland have provided places where both brown and mountain hare reside in such numbers that shooting huge numbers doesn't wipe them from the face of the earth.

Jerry we need habitats where beasties thrive. I guess my pragmatism comes from the fact that if we have strong populations grouse hares, whatever really.then we have hope..........

hope that one day those strong gene pools can be used to repopulate other suitable locations..

At this time I can't find timidus in Wales, but with my VERY limited knowledge they should be there.the uplands of Wales seem perfect for them. ( Lay aside GW for a mo) That grouse moor so profound to me was in Wales.

Buddy I have no truck with killing rare BOPS and you are gonna be hard pressed to find a guy more in love with a hare than me ,although we all know I'm madder than a" March" what they mean to me is all over my posts, but I have to hold on to a big picture not my individuals.

first up we need habitat second we need genes. Genes that someone somewhere will have the expertise to spread about. If the money for that comes from the shootiing fraternity or the RSPB or them grafting together or fighting, I really care not, I have to be pragmatic.I need them beasties to survive for our kids and their kids .

John ,I dunno wise words....................I have no truck will a keeper killing rare BOPS ( let me rephrase ANY BOP)bud, NONE....but at the same token you live besides red grouse, were able to show me one and spark me off on a little journey of my own, plausibly because of a game shoot.? If that shoot were not there how hard might it be to share your image buddy?

John for decades now I've been harping on about the biggest global extinction since the dinosaurs.that is the plight of the genus Amphibia. Phibs are what they call barometer species.................see they are one of those early warning signs.when their numbers start to go pear shaped, one is starting to see the collaps of an ecosystem.

What we are seeing now within the PRE BIRD FLU report that's just come out has been on the cards for ages.

The big thing is our understanding of how we can help the plight of so so many disappearing species has never been better...but at the core of all this is habitat, no habitat no place to return a species to ..................................and secondly( but only slightly gene pools to replenish from .

We will never all agree here, what we have to do is work through all the BS to make sure sommit is left for our kids and grand kids

there is only the big piccy

Forgive me if some opens a comedic door I'm goona walk in


Chris when you have finished fattening up that hog ya gonna clay bake that matey? :exit:
 
Further update: 113 is now the total number of Hen Harriers killed/missing on or near grouse moors since 2018. This year alone there have been 24 cases, the highest since 2018.

At least the Scottish Government are looking at licencing driven grouse shooting but even if they do how effective will it be?
 
Great news today:

An historic day as Scottish Parliament votes through grouse moor licensing!​

In the last few minutes, the Scottish Parliament (with the exception of the Scottish Tories) has voted overwhelmingly in support of the Wildlife Management & Muirburn Bill!

This new legislation will bring in a licensing scheme for grouse shooting, a licensing scheme for muirburn, a licensing scheme for wildlife traps, a ban on all snares and increased investigatory powers for the Scottish SPCA.

And a sad update on raptor persecution:

123 hen harriers confirmed ‘missing’ or illegally killed in UK since 2018, most of them on or close to grouse moors​

 
wilki said:
Great news today:

An historic day as Scottish Parliament votes through grouse moor licensing!​

In the last few minutes, the Scottish Parliament (with the exception of the Scottish Tories) has voted overwhelmingly in support of the Wildlife Management & Muirburn Bill!

This new legislation will bring in a licensing scheme for grouse shooting, a licensing scheme for muirburn, a licensing scheme for wildlife traps, a ban on all snares and increased investigatory powers for the Scottish SPCA.

And a sad update on raptor persecution:

123 hen harriers confirmed ‘missing’ or illegally killed in UK since 2018, most of them on or close to grouse moors​

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And the number of years campaigning it has taken!

The shoots that are operating within the law have got nothing to fear from this legislation.
 
I hope that it will be rigorously enforced.

I wonder when England will introduce such licensing - I won't hold my breath - I' be surprised if it happens within the next 10 - 20 years but we can hope.

I believe the Welsh are considering similar legislation.
 
hunnymonster said:
Both of them?!?!? (Tongue firmly in cheek)
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Nice one.......

"I believe the Welsh are considering similar legislation."

I don't think so. I believe the WG is banning snares but there is very little grouse shooting in Wales (if any, now) so it wouldn't really be relevant. There's still plenty of partridge and pheasants released into the countryside, though, so that dead ones can then be dumped down mine shafts and by the sides of roads,...... :naughty:
 
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I'm not from England so no idea what happens in the moors over there. Just sitting here wondering what the nay sayer's have done to help any wild population survive. Many many years ago on a forest in Arizona hunting was stopped to protect the deer. As it turned out the deer started overpopulating and the area couldn't produce enough food and they started dying off. Our government sent in people to push the animals out onto land that could support more but the animals turned around and circled back around to stay on their own ground. Turned into a massive die off! Sounds like the people your so upset with mostly plant their own birds and manage the moors just for that. What has the nay sayer's contributed to the birds and animals of the moors?
 
admirable said:
RSPB not happy about more Hen Harriers
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Yes, I read the RSPB's press release about the recent hen harrier survey. I must admit that it is very grudging towards the increased numbers breeding in England.

The problem with the Countryside Alliance is that it is so pro-blood sports that it is totally blind to the problems of illegal control of predators on grouse moors.
 
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