The Inglorious Twelfth

[jerry12953]

The hen harrier reintroduction scheme was partly funded by... The British Association for Shooting and Conservation.

They are quite proud of that.

Another record year for hen harriers as 141 chicks fledge in England

New data from Natural England shows 141 hen harrier chicks fledged in England this year, the seventh year in a row numbers have increased.

basc.org.uk

If you remove the shooters, those pretty purple mountains will be left to turn to scrub or turned over to forestry. Moorlands are a managed environment.

There is an argument about the BASC, Countryside Alliance and the GWCT etc but I don't particularly want to go there.

When you talk about mountains turning to scrub, what you actually mean is reverting to woodland. The word "scrub" is often used to denigrate that particular natural process. It certainly is here in Wales to justify high sheep numbers.

 

[sphexx]

There is an argument about the BASC, Countryside Alliance and the GWCT etc but I don't particularly want to go there.

When you talk about mountains turning to scrub, what you actually mean is reverting to woodland. The word "scrub" is often used to denigrate that particular natural process. It certainly is here in Wales to justify high sheep numbers.

Re: scrub. Indeed! I have a former railway path nearby that was turned into a cycle track by SUSTRANS. I’m all for bikes but the process described it as unused* and inaccessible (because there were some muddy bits. There was a shared (by hawthorn) path at the top of the cutting that was full of wild flowers. All the hawthorn was described as “scrub” and cleared (though why I don’t know since it was nothing to do with the bikes) with the result it became full of nettles etc and completely overgrown, wild flowers disappeared apart from nettles (! ) ,

* It had been well used for 30-40 years by dog walkers mainly but also people collecting berries etc in season. Not bikes because there was a cutting section with old railway stone on that was a wildlife haven with aforementioned path above the cutting.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

All the hawthorn was described as “scrub” and cleared (though why I don’t know since it was nothing to do with the bikes) with the result it became full of nettles etc

Never underestimate the stupidity of an over-promoted "manager".

 

[sphexx]

Never underestimate the stupidity of an over-promoted "manager".

Actually I suspect it may have been down to local amateurs in the shape of our Lions club who were promoters/conspirators and who were certainly responsible for “improving” our aptly named Wilderness car park for butterflies while ruining it for caterpillars .

 

[Stuart Philpott]

Guy's, first up , there are always a few bad eggs, in any walk of life. tis no different with gamekeepers...............I so wish the harriers were not part of all this but they are sadly. I have a friend that is a keeper,many of you know I make more than the odd brown hare image. I am incredibly fortunate to have permission on a shooting estate (lowland phessy) to make hare pictures.
So over the years the game keeper has become me mate. Shooting game from the outside is about blood..the killing of stunning birds for sport . But from a more inside point of view it is so much more. I am VERY aware this is not only about habitat management but also predator control. In my case a non native species IE Lepus europeas thrives because of both facets in a higher density than the surrrounding area. Which I take advantage of. So straight up I might be biased. I see game crops song bird seed mixes growing where there could just be wheat. Hedges kept where it might be profitable to grub them out and huge quanties of food put out not for phessy but ickle birds yellow hammers linnet goldie all thrive. Along with more sparrow hawk, buzz and kite, than seems to be the norm.although I know of some seriously dense kite roosts locally


I visited my first managed grouse moor these last few days found the whole thing astounding.......the sheer scale and care of habitat management bewildering. UTTERLY BEWILDERING. I noticed plants in profusion heather is it beyberry? That were present in surrounding uplands but basically swamped out by grasses. The scale the care the sheer cost of ush management must be astronomical. All to create a sustainable surplus of a bird to be shot. Sustainable surplus..well if they shoot to many then there is no income next year. I've been digging about grouse shooting is monster money. oh to be that wealthy huh.

I'm sort of pragmatic, if some grouse don't make it through the 12th to the 10th of Dec, but their kin remain to breed next year and a raft of other species exploit said habitat is that so bad?

I think we are in changing times, we utterly need to manage habitat/s.grouse where not shot alonside most other beasties here are kinda hanging on at best. The old guard was shooting estates....let face it where do we see a really old tree in blighty.tis almost always on an estate that used to shoot. Cause simply some toff left it there on the grounds it made his phessy fly higher. Now those places are oft on the hands of RSPB or national trust, but there is a reason those really old sticks survived and simply that was old skool money.


So little old me got to see a red grouse 'tother day( lo, ok a couple or 3) and the joy of watching it and it's kin might be hard for me to put in words. But would I have had that joy without a shoot....hmm I dunno??

Would we have capercaille here in blightly now without money form shooting . my research says nope,

Black grouse are slowly coming back but man thats a long running process

There is a conservation model that works the world over, one provides a means for local folks to make an income, from something in a habitat. Therefore said habitat is kept in place. When that involves a guy with a lot of money and a gun it becomes hard for many of us to stomach. I try to be pragmatic but as before my cards are on the table I am biased,and yes part of my diet this winter will be game, I've been properly hungry I'd hate to think of a bird shot and not eaten

We are making a pigs ear of pretty much the whole planet right now. Shooting might disappear from the UK with time to be replaced by a new guard of habitat management, but at the core of all this will be money .

That day spent trying so so hard to not disturb anything on that grouse moor was sort of ironic, I didn't want to get out of the camper tread in the wrong place.whilst all around me folks rode bikes walkers ran roughshood kids screamed....none of them knew what was there.

Lay that aside making folks care is a matter of education not vilification. What hammered me was the money needed to maintain that habitat the time taken the expertise to turn what I know as a moor into a habitat where grouse numbers are so high some old fool like me gets to see a red grouse on his first attempt.

John ahh mate so so complex, I'd just urge all to be pragmatic, try to see the other side. Our ecosystems right now is in a damage limitation phase

sorry long post damn that grouse moor resonated with me WOW

 

[sphexx]

Guy's, first up , there are always a few bad eggs, in any walk of life. tis no different with gamekeepers...............I so wish the harriers were not part of all this but they are sadly. I have a friend that is a keeper,many of you know I make more than the odd brown hare image. I am incredibly fortunate to have permission on a shooting estate (lowland phessy) to make hare pictures.
So over the years the game keeper has become me mate. Shooting game from the outside is about blood..the killing of stunning birds for sport . But from a more inside point of view it is so much more. I am VERY aware this is not only about habitat management but also predator control. In my case a non native species IE Lepus europeas thrives because of both facets in a higher density than the surrrounding area. Which I take advantage of. So straight up I might be biased. I see game crops song bird seed mixes growing where there could just be wheat. Hedges kept where it might be profitable to grub them out and huge quanties of food put out not for phessy but ickle birds yellow hammers linnet goldie all thrive. Along with more sparrow hawk, buzz and kite, than seems to be the norm.although I know of some seriously dense kite roosts locally


I visited my first managed grouse moor these last few days found the whole thing astounding.......the sheer scale and care of habitat management bewildering. UTTERLY BEWILDERING. I noticed plants in profusion heather is it beyberry? That were present in surrounding uplands but basically swamped out by grasses. The scale the care the sheer cost of ush management must be astronomical. All to create a sustainable surplus of a bird to be shot. Sustainable surplus..well if they shoot to many then there is no income next year. I've been digging about grouse shooting is monster money. oh to be that wealthy huh.

I'm sort of pragmatic, if some grouse don't make it through the 12th to the 10th of Dec, but their kin remain to breed next year and a raft of other species exploit said habitat is that so bad?

I think we are in changing times, we utterly need to manage habitat/s.grouse where not shot alonside most other beasties here are kinda hanging on at best. The old guard was shooting estates....let face it where do we see a really old tree in blighty.tis almost always on an estate that used to shoot. Cause simply some toff left it there on the grounds it made his phessy fly higher. Now those places are oft on the hands of RSPB or national trust, but there is a reason those really old sticks survived and simply that was old skool money.


So little old me got to see a red grouse 'tother day( lo, ok a couple or 3) and the joy of watching it and it's kin might be hard for me to put in words. But would I have had that joy without a shoot....hmm I dunno??

Would we have capercaille here in blightly now without money form shooting . my research says nope,

Black grouse are slowly coming back but man thats a long running process

There is a conservation model that works the world over, one provides a means for local folks to make an income, from something in a habitat. Therefore said habitat is kept in place. When that involves a guy with a lot of money and a gun it becomes hard for many of us to stomach. I try to be pragmatic but as before my cards are on the table I am biased,and yes part of my diet this winter will be game, I've been properly hungry I'd hate to think of a bird shot and not eaten

We are making a pigs ear of pretty much the whole planet right now. Shooting might disappear from the UK with time to be replaced by a new guard of habitat management, but at the core of all this will be money .

That day spent trying so so hard to not disturb anything on that grouse moor was sort of ironic, I didn't want to get out of the camper tread in the wrong place.whilst all around me folks rode bikes walkers ran roughshood kids screamed....none of them knew what was there.

Lay that aside making folks care is a matter of education not vilification. What hammered me was the money needed to maintain that habitat the time taken the expertise to turn what I know as a moor into a habitat where grouse numbers are so high some old fool like me gets to see a red grouse on his first attempt.

John ahh mate so so complex, I'd just urge all to be pragmatic, try to see the other side. Our ecosystems right now is in a damage limitation phase

sorry long post damn that grouse moor resonated with me WOW

Brown hares too benefit from grouse moors. In many cases they are at the limit of their ability to survive at that height and a harsh winter or other factor can wipe them out locally and when that happens it takes forever for them to recolonise even though they may be present in adjacent areas.They are then sometimes restocked by ‘keepers and others — I’ve no idea how common that is but it happens to my personal knowledge.

 

[admirable]

Guy's, first up , there are always a few bad eggs, in any walk of life. tis no different with gamekeepers...............I so wish the harriers were not part of all this but they are sadly. I have a friend that is a keeper,many of you know I make more than the odd brown hare image. I am incredibly fortunate to have permission on a shooting estate (lowland phessy) to make hare pictures.
So over the years the game keeper has become me mate. Shooting game from the outside is about blood..the killing of stunning birds for sport . But from a more inside point of view it is so much more. I am VERY aware this is not only about habitat management but also predator control. In my case a non native species IE Lepus europeas thrives because of both facets in a higher density than the surrrounding area. Which I take advantage of. So straight up I might be biased. I see game crops song bird seed mixes growing where there could just be wheat. Hedges kept where it might be profitable to grub them out and huge quanties of food put out not for phessy but ickle birds yellow hammers linnet goldie all thrive. Along with more sparrow hawk, buzz and kite, than seems to be the norm.although I know of some seriously dense kite roosts locally


I visited my first managed grouse moor these last few days found the whole thing astounding.......the sheer scale and care of habitat management bewildering. UTTERLY BEWILDERING. I noticed plants in profusion heather is it beyberry? That were present in surrounding uplands but basically swamped out by grasses. The scale the care the sheer cost of ush management must be astronomical. All to create a sustainable surplus of a bird to be shot. Sustainable surplus..well if they shoot to many then there is no income next year. I've been digging about grouse shooting is monster money. oh to be that wealthy huh.

I'm sort of pragmatic, if some grouse don't make it through the 12th to the 10th of Dec, but their kin remain to breed next year and a raft of other species exploit said habitat is that so bad?

I think we are in changing times, we utterly need to manage habitat/s.grouse where not shot alonside most other beasties here are kinda hanging on at best. The old guard was shooting estates....let face it where do we see a really old tree in blighty.tis almost always on an estate that used to shoot. Cause simply some toff left it there on the grounds it made his phessy fly higher. Now those places are oft on the hands of RSPB or national trust, but there is a reason those really old sticks survived and simply that was old skool money.


So little old me got to see a red grouse 'tother day( lo, ok a couple or 3) and the joy of watching it and it's kin might be hard for me to put in words. But would I have had that joy without a shoot....hmm I dunno??

Would we have capercaille here in blightly now without money form shooting . my research says nope,

Black grouse are slowly coming back but man thats a long running process

There is a conservation model that works the world over, one provides a means for local folks to make an income, from something in a habitat. Therefore said habitat is kept in place. When that involves a guy with a lot of money and a gun it becomes hard for many of us to stomach. I try to be pragmatic but as before my cards are on the table I am biased,and yes part of my diet this winter will be game, I've been properly hungry I'd hate to think of a bird shot and not eaten

We are making a pigs ear of pretty much the whole planet right now. Shooting might disappear from the UK with time to be replaced by a new guard of habitat management, but at the core of all this will be money .

That day spent trying so so hard to not disturb anything on that grouse moor was sort of ironic, I didn't want to get out of the camper tread in the wrong place.whilst all around me folks rode bikes walkers ran roughshood kids screamed....none of them knew what was there.

Lay that aside making folks care is a matter of education not vilification. What hammered me was the money needed to maintain that habitat the time taken the expertise to turn what I know as a moor into a habitat where grouse numbers are so high some old fool like me gets to see a red grouse on his first attempt.

John ahh mate so so complex, I'd just urge all to be pragmatic, try to see the other side. Our ecosystems right now is in a damage limitation phase

sorry long post damn that grouse moor resonated with me WOW

Best post I've read in a long time!

 

[Stuart Philpott]

Brown hares too benefit from grouse moors. In many cases they are at the limit of their ability to survive at that height and a harsh winter or other factor can wipe them out locally and when that happens it takes forever for them to recolonise even though they may be present in adjacent areas.They are then sometimes restocked by ‘keepers and others — I’ve no idea how common that is but it happens to my personal knowledge.

That's fascinating Rich, and it raises one instant question. why europeas not timidus? Yaknow I don't even know the extent of the latters 'range now ,lol more reading. Ahh mate you have no idea how much I year to stalk timidus...........hmm lol you probably do actually

With all the warming, I suppose timidus won't fair so well moving forwards hmm that might apply to the actual subject of John's thread too....all these upland species might be affected.

Hmm this might make you smile...........i've been following this thread a while bud, man all the posts are so eloquent, I don't even know what some of the words posted mean buddy. If I hadn't of seen that moor( profound for me that) I wouldn't have had the confidence to post Ta for the heart and Jim @admirable thank you.too Very kind both genuiinely reached to delelte many times whilst waffling above. Felt so so out of my depth Funny how little things can help someone isn't it

 

[sphexx]

That's fascinating Rich, and it raises one instant question. why europeas not timidus? Yaknow I don't even know the extent of the latters 'range now ,lol more reading. Ahh mate you have no idea how much I year to stalk timidus...........hmm lol you probably do actually

With all the warming, I suppose timidus won't fair so well moving forwards hmm that might apply to the actual subject of John's thread too....all these upland species might be affected.

Hmm this might make you smile...........i've been following this thread a while bud, man all the posts are so eloquent, I don't even know what some of the words posted mean buddy. If I hadn't of seen that moor( profound for me that) I wouldn't have had the confidence to post Ta for the heart and Jim @admirable thank you.too Very kind both genuiinely reached to delelte many times whilst waffling above. Felt so so out of my depth Funny how little things can help someone isn't it

May be relevant to mention here that as you probably know timidus does exist in Yorkshire and Derbyshire — but of course was introduced by ’keepers and their ilk having been long extinct in England .

 

[jerry12953]

And talking of mountain hares, countless thousands were shot on grouse moors every year until very recently; From what I read there is now a close season for shooting them but exceptions can be granted by SNH.

 

[sphexx]

And talking of mountain hares, countless thousands were shot on grouse moors every year until very recently; From what I read there is now a close season for shooting them but exceptions can be granted by SNH.

A great many brown hare are shot on agricultural land each spring, at least in Yorkshire, purely as ”pest control” and it has little effect on their numbers. By all accounts not as many as used to be shot each year and shipped to the cities in the past. I can’t give you numbers but for example I know of one area where 500 were shot at the end of winter about 10 years ago. In some cases brown hares numbers are deliberately reduced to discourage the betting gangs who ”course” them while following over fields in vehicles.

 

[Cobra]

The hare hunting season runs from late August/early September until March.
Brown hares are defined as ‘game’ by the Game Act 1831. This Act prohibits the shooting of game on Sundays and Christmas Day.

The Hares Preservation Act 1892 makes it an offence to sell, or expose for sale, any hare or leveret between the months of March and July inclusive. This prohibition removes any commercial incentive to kill hares during the main breeding season but does not apply to imported hares.

From 1 March to 31 July hares should only be killed if they are actually causing serious crop damage (as opposed to them being a potential source of risk). Not shooting at this time prevents the orphaning of dependent young during the hare’s main breeding season.

 

[jerry12953]

The legislation regarding mountain hares in Scotland came into force on August 1st 2021. Here is a summary of how it works -

https://www.nature.scot/doc/mountain-hare-licensing-guidance-applicants

 

[Cobra]

The legislation regarding mountain hares in Scotland came into force on August 1st 2021. Here is a summary of how it works -

https://www.nature.scot/doc/mountain-hare-licensing-guidance-applicants

It was only a matter of time.
Most animals & birds are protected, this side of the boarder.
Even Gulls are a protected species ( up there as well)

 

[sphexx]

The hare hunting season runs from late August/early September until March.

Actually there never was a hare hunting season in England except by custom and practice, and is none now since it was banned in England by the Hunting Act 2004.

Brown hares are defined as ‘game’ by the Game Act 1831. This Act prohibits the shooting of game on Sundays and Christmas Day.

I believe, though haven’t checked, that it was the taking or killing of game rather than just shooting on Sundays etc.

The Hares Preservation Act 1892 makes it an offence to sell, or expose for sale, any hare or leveret between the months of March and July inclusive. This prohibition removes any commercial incentive to kill hares during the main breeding season but does not apply to imported hares.

Yes, and that has been a problem with the intriduction of refrigeration/freezing. There were moves modify it but I’m not sure that was done.

From 1 March to 31 July hares should only be killed if they are actually causing serious crop damage (as opposed to them being a potential source of risk). Not shooting at this time prevents the orphaning of dependent young during the hare’s main breeding season.

Yes, though it would be pretty poor practice to do so since the numbers could have been reduced earlier. BTW climate change is or is going to lead to changes in the hare breeding season depending on various other factors.

 

[Cobra]

Actually there never was a hare hunting season in England except by custom and practice,

Hare are game and therefore subject to game hunting laws.

 

[sphexx]

Hare are game and therefore subject to game hunting laws.

I suspect you are using “hunting” in the American sense rather than the English as I am. I doubt we are in disagreement. Was there a falconry season or seasons — I honestly have no idea but I suspect not, but again falconers would still be covered by the laws of taking game.

 

[Cobra]

I suspect you are using “hunting” in the American sense rather than the English

i'm quoting from DEFRA & BASC.
Both English through and through.

 

[sphexx]

i'm quoting from DEFRA

DEFRA probably don’t know what they are talking about.

& BASC.

BASC is solely a shooting organisation and nothing to do with huntind apart prrhaps from members who go to N America or Africa

Both English through and through.

Now you’ll upset a lot of people here. BASC is British not English and I wouldn’t like to get into how the Welsh, Scots or Irish (British Irish or Irish British or Irish Irish) ) employ English language words

 

[Cobra]

DEFRA probably don’t know what they are talking about.

Well, as they are a government body controlling among other things pest control,
I'll believe them over you
DEFRA = Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs.
When ever I have needed to contact them, regarding a point of law, getting a general licence, even an exemption licence to kill a protected species, or registering native birds of prey, (A10) I have always found them very helpful.

BASC is solely a shooting organisation and nothing to do with huntind

That's just splitting hairs, hunting, shooting is classed as hunting.

BASC is British not English and I wouldn’t like to get into how the Welsh, Scots or Irish

Who are they then?

 

[jerry12953]

British Association for Shooting (and Conservation)

 

[Cobra]

British Association for Shooting (and Conservation)

Just to balance that up a bit.

Hunting definition doesn't separate shooting, with guns, bows, dogs or any thing else.

 

[jerry12953]

Just to balance that up a bit.

Hunting definition doesn't separate shooting, with guns, bows, dogs or any thing else.

Oh I see. It was "who are they then?" to the Welsh, Scottish or Irish. Silly me.

 

[Cobra]

Oh I see. It was "who are they then?" to the Welsh, Scottish or Irish. Silly me.

That was a joke FFS!

 

[jerry12953]

Not everyone gets my jokes either (see above)

 

[sphexx]

Well, as they are a government body controlling among other things pest control,
I'll believe them over you
DEFRA = Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs.
When ever I have needed to contact them, regarding a point of law, getting a general licence, even an exemption licence to kill a protected species, or registering native birds of prey, (A10) I have always found them very helpful.

I am not saying they don’t have expertise, would you say ”they” (as a body or as individuals) generally know more about the practice of falconry (or pest control for that matter) than you?

That's just splitting hairs, hunting, shooting is classed as hunting.

Is shooting classed as falconry? I’ve never heard shooters talk of themselves as hunters, always shooters or stalkers or “guns” etc sometimes. Clearly in layman’s English stalkers do “hunt” but driven game can’t be described as hunting any more than target shooting can. One of the many deficiencies of the Hunting Act is that nowhere in it does it define “hunting” nor “hunter”

Who are they then?

 

[sphexx]

Just to balance that up a bit.

Hunting definition doesn't separate shooting, with guns, bows, dogs or any thing else.

It all, as in so much in English and probably most languages, deppends in context. Strictly speaking shooting refers to arrows not bullets etc. Airguns are regularly described (and probably defined) as “firearms” which is obviously bonkers since no combustion is involved in their mechanism.

 

[sphexx]

Oh I see. It was "who are they then?" to the Welsh, Scottish or Irish. Silly me.

Don’t worry, I didn’t get it either and it was directed at me!

 

[Cobra]

Is shooting classed as falconry?

FFS the comments are just getting sillier

 

[sphexx]

I feel this thread is wandering off the point a bit, that’s a surprise .

 

[Peter123]

I thought I'd strayed into hot topics for a minute.

 

[nc_killie]

Guy's, first up , there are always a few bad eggs, in any walk of life. tis no different with gamekeepers...............I so wish the harriers were not part of all this but they are sadly. I have a friend that is a keeper,many of you know I make more than the odd brown hare image. I am incredibly fortunate to have permission on a shooting estate (lowland phessy) to make hare pictures.
So over the years the game keeper has become me mate. Shooting game from the outside is about blood..the killing of stunning birds for sport . But from a more inside point of view it is so much more. I am VERY aware this is not only about habitat management but also predator control. In my case a non native species IE Lepus europeas thrives because of both facets in a higher density than the surrrounding area. Which I take advantage of. So straight up I might be biased. I see game crops song bird seed mixes growing where there could just be wheat. Hedges kept where it might be profitable to grub them out and huge quanties of food put out not for phessy but ickle birds yellow hammers linnet goldie all thrive. Along with more sparrow hawk, buzz and kite, than seems to be the norm.although I know of some seriously dense kite roosts locally


I visited my first managed grouse moor these last few days found the whole thing astounding.......the sheer scale and care of habitat management bewildering. UTTERLY BEWILDERING. I noticed plants in profusion heather is it beyberry? That were present in surrounding uplands but basically swamped out by grasses. The scale the care the sheer cost of ush management must be astronomical. All to create a sustainable surplus of a bird to be shot. Sustainable surplus..well if they shoot to many then there is no income next year. I've been digging about grouse shooting is monster money. oh to be that wealthy huh.

I'm sort of pragmatic, if some grouse don't make it through the 12th to the 10th of Dec, but their kin remain to breed next year and a raft of other species exploit said habitat is that so bad?

I think we are in changing times, we utterly need to manage habitat/s.grouse where not shot alonside most other beasties here are kinda hanging on at best. The old guard was shooting estates....let face it where do we see a really old tree in blighty.tis almost always on an estate that used to shoot. Cause simply some toff left it there on the grounds it made his phessy fly higher. Now those places are oft on the hands of RSPB or national trust, but there is a reason those really old sticks survived and simply that was old skool money.


So little old me got to see a red grouse 'tother day( lo, ok a couple or 3) and the joy of watching it and it's kin might be hard for me to put in words. But would I have had that joy without a shoot....hmm I dunno??

Would we have capercaille here in blightly now without money form shooting . my research says nope,

Black grouse are slowly coming back but man thats a long running process

There is a conservation model that works the world over, one provides a means for local folks to make an income, from something in a habitat. Therefore said habitat is kept in place. When that involves a guy with a lot of money and a gun it becomes hard for many of us to stomach. I try to be pragmatic but as before my cards are on the table I am biased,and yes part of my diet this winter will be game, I've been properly hungry I'd hate to think of a bird shot and not eaten

We are making a pigs ear of pretty much the whole planet right now. Shooting might disappear from the UK with time to be replaced by a new guard of habitat management, but at the core of all this will be money .

That day spent trying so so hard to not disturb anything on that grouse moor was sort of ironic, I didn't want to get out of the camper tread in the wrong place.whilst all around me folks rode bikes walkers ran roughshood kids screamed....none of them knew what was there.

Lay that aside making folks care is a matter of education not vilification. What hammered me was the money needed to maintain that habitat the time taken the expertise to turn what I know as a moor into a habitat where grouse numbers are so high some old fool like me gets to see a red grouse on his first attempt.

John ahh mate so so complex, I'd just urge all to be pragmatic, try to see the other side. Our ecosystems right now is in a damage limitation phase

sorry long post damn that grouse moor resonated with me WOW

Hi Stu
wise words as usual. My original post was to try and highlight the fact that some landowners will eliminate anything and everything that they think will negatively ’their’ grouse and to hell with the law. I live on the edge of such
land and get livid when I think of what could be there if it was not for the hand of man- as you say we truly f things up much of the time.
Hope all is well and take care

 

[nc_killie]

I feel this thread is wandering off the point a bit, that’s a surprise .

……..I think it wandered a long time ago!!!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

...some landowners will eliminate anything and everything that they think will negatively ’their’ grouse and to hell with the law.

In the middle of the 17th century, a bunch called the "The Levellers" tried to address this and similar problems. For a while, everything went well.
Then they ran up against a landowner called Oliver Cromwell...

 

[sphexx]

In the middle of the 17th century, a bunch called the "The Levellers" tried to address this and similar problems. For a while, everything went well.
Then they ran up against a landowner called Oliver Cromwell...

Hi Stu
wise words as usual. My original post was to try and highlight the fact that some landowners will eliminate anything and everything that they think will negatively ’their’ grouse and to hell with the law. I live on the edge of such
land and get livid when I think of what could be there if it was not for the hand of man- as you say we truly f things up much of the time.
Hope all is well and take care

Ah, the hand of man! I”m sympathetic to that. But one problem is that if you remove the big landowners and then have the free access that so many people want you end up with more disturbance by walkers, off-roaders etc etc which can be more disturbing to wildlife than the original management. It’s worth remembering that in the golden age that everyone harks back to when wildlife (except wolves and bears ㋡ ) was much more common, before the Industrial Revolution, the population of Great Britain was something around 5 million people — we are not going back to that any time soon unless climate change gets really bad and that won’t be good for wildlife either except maybe cockroaches.

 

[jerry12953]

Ah, the hand of man! I”m sympathetic to that. But one problem is that if you remove the big landowners and then have the free access that so many people want you end up with more disturbance by walkers, off-roaders etc etc which can be more disturbing to wildlife than the original management. It’s worth remembering that in the golden age that everyone harks back to when wildlife (except wolves and bears ㋡ ) was much more common, before the Industrial Revolution, the population of Great Britain was something around 5 million people — we are not going back to that any time soon unless climate change gets really bad and that won’t be good for wildlife either except maybe cockroaches.

I don't think the main problem is removing the big landowners from the land. It is a fact that some/many of them have a policy of relentlessly removing much of the biodiversity (often illegally) from that land to benefit just one species - red grouse. It is also said that muirburn is a big problem as well - ie burning the vegetation on deep peat which releases the carbon dioxide stored there. I also think you're overstating the case that walkers and off-roaders would cause as much damage to wildlife that the current regimes do. I do agree with you about off-roaders, they're a real pain here in Wales, and difficult to control. But I couldn't say that walkers would be a big problem. Many of these moorlands are pretty vast and difficult to penetrate on foot.

How would you remove the landowners anyway? It's their land........

 

[Cobra]

except maybe cockroaches.

Allegedly the only living things that will survive a Nucular blast.
So when the Government emerge from their bunkers, at least they'll be among friends.

I feel this thread is wandering off the point a bit, that’s a surprise .

I'm not helping am I?

 

[sphexx]

How would you remove the landowners anyway? It's their land........

I’m not really proposing to remove the landowners though of course it could done in the same way that the commons were ”stolen” as in:

The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose.
Strictly speaking no one owns real estate they only occupy it a freeholder (a tenant in fee simple*), Iin England and Wales it all ultimately belongs to the Crown and the Crown can and does take it back usually while compensating you for the loss of your tenancy.


Sadly, once we get rid of the landowners we are back in the “tragedy of the commons” **.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

 

[sphexx]

Allegedly the only living things that will survive a Nucular blast.
So when the Government emerge from their bunkers, at least they'll be among friends.

Yes, that’s why I picked on them though whether they can survive our pesticide use (if that’s what’s reducing insect numbers is debatable. Though they can expect no sympathy from you as a self declared serial ant murderer BTW once you have wiped out all the invertebrates in your garden what is Heggie going to feed on?

I'm not helping am I?

You can always be relied on for that, I deny I had any hand in it

 

[Cobra]

you as a self declared serial ant murderer

At least there were no Alates this year in my garden, #saving the neighborhood 1000 ants at a time

what is Heggie going to feed on?

There are still plenty of slugs and other small inverts.
But of course that is supplemented with dog food, mealworms, peanuts, and he raids the bird seed ground feeder too.
Although I fear he is getting a little too chubby to fit through the bars these days