....unfortunately with the Scottish Government the words that come to mind are - brewery, organise, pi$$ up, couldn't!
The Inglorious Twelfth
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...so do I!
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Good job it’s all exaggerated nonsense, would be really concerning otherwise…
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The child of some friends who live in a rural area recently worked as a paid beater on one of the estates of one of the richest individuals in Britain. This I find disturbing enough, as I'm against bloodsports and such environmentally destructive practices anyway, but the child is well below the age of legal employment, so if one law is being blatantly flouted, then it's no surprise that others are too. Wealthy people tend to get away with breaking the laws though. They don't seem to apply to them as they do to the rest of us...
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Face up to the truth not the spin from the Grouse shooting fraternity
110 hen harriers confirmed ‘missing’ or illegally killed in UK since 2018, most of them on or close to grouse moors
For anyone who still wants to pretend that the grouse shooting industry isn’t responsible for the systematic extermination of hen harriers on grouse moors across the UK, here’s the latest catalogue…
raptorpersecutionuk.org
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Face up to the truth not the spin from the Grouse shooting fraternity
110 hen harriers confirmed ‘missing’ or illegally killed in UK since 2018, most of them on or close to grouse moors
For anyone who still wants to pretend that the grouse shooting industry isn’t responsible for the systematic extermination of hen harriers on grouse moors across the UK, here’s the latest catalogue…
it doesn't matter how much evidence you present some people with, they will never change their fixed opinions.
sphexx
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More good news:
Natural Resources Wales (NRW) said that it has it shelved plans to license the release of game birds for the 2024/25 season and that it has discussed with Welsh Government ministers whether licensing will be required at all in the future.
sphexx
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That cuts both ways!
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Have you been following this thread from the beginning? If so, you might notice that I was paraphrasing an earlier post by someone who is of the view that the figures are somewhat exaggerated. Not a view I share, but I’m not close enough to the issue to robustly oppose it on a factual first-hand basis.
One thing I have learned over the years is that there are at least two sides to every issue, and that much of what we see/read about an issue such as this is content produced by those that have an agenda.
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Face up to the truth not the spin from the Grouse shooting fraternity
110 hen harriers confirmed ‘missing’ or illegally killed in UK since 2018, most of them on or close to grouse moors
For anyone who still wants to pretend that the grouse shooting industry isn’t responsible for the systematic extermination of hen harriers on grouse moors across the UK, here’s the latest catalogue…
Of course RPUK have an agenda. It is to stop the grouse moor owners and their employees from breaking the law. I can't see why you would have a problem with that.
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sphexx
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I don’t have a problem per ce. Deciding who has produced the most accurate and impartial analysis of the issue is however surely something of a challenge. That raptors seem to ‘disappear’ or come to their demise around grouse moors does present a point of interest. It doesn’t however prove guilt. Counter arguments have been made by those (perhaps) more knowledgeable than myself.
As I’m fundamentally against rearing animals simply so that they can be shot for ‘fun’, I find myself in a position where I’m more than willing to accept that the loss of Hen Harriers near grouse moors is more than likely due to those with vested interest in maintaining the grouse population and thereby profit from the shoots. However, by definition that makes me biased.
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I don't understand you. Do you mean that you're in favour of grouse moor owners breaking the law to kill raptors and maintain the artificially high numbers of grouse on their land?
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That's an interesting point. But do you go through life without having an opinion on anything? There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, you know.....
sphexx
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Your “lawbreaking“ argument regarding the paid child doesn’t hold much water. There are plenty of members here who have said they’ve broken similar laws but I seriously doubt it means they are guilty of any more serious crimes.
They may be keeping numbers “artificially” high but no one knows what the number may have been when the land was in a “natural” state so they may just be doing a good job of grouse conservation After all in a natural (ie without farming etc) it’s normal for large numbers of young to die each year — or be “harvested by predators to look at it another way, You want grouse shooting to stop so there’ll be more killing by Hen Harriers etc which no doubt you will have fun watching and photographing, as many here do
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Whatever are you trying to say?
As far as law-breaking is concerned laws were introduced in 1954 to prevent the killing of birds of prey. (Apparently sparrowhawk was an exception but that was added in 1963) And yet continually, year after year, month after month, birds of prey are killed on grouse moors and around pheasant/partridge shoots. The perpetrators continue to do it, partly because they know they can get away with it, and if by some chance they don't, they know they will be given little more than a slap on the wrist. Did you read the recent case where five dead goshawks (all shot) were dumped in a very public place in East Anglia by a so-called "part-time gamekeeper" See link below -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-64316504
Regarding evidence: the evidence is available, regarding hen harriers, posted by Wilki in post 88 above. Have you read it? Similar evidence is available for other raptors, for example golden eagles. Can you present actual evidence to the contrary? If you can then there is a genuine discussion to be had.
sphexx
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I’m saying that in a post above you argued that because an estate was breaking child employment law and maybe taxation, (probably for 1 day as that’s how beating works) they are probably breaking other more serious laws. This is the same common argument that animal-rightists use to claim that shooters etc must be paedopliles and it doesn’t hold water!
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sphexx
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Ouch, I apologise, it was indeed a post just after one of yours so I seem to have confused them!
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That was actually my post; it's quite easy to determine that fact. And I stand by my statment that people willing to break one law are often just as willing to break others, if it serves their own vested interest. But for you to then go on and make claims about 'animal rightists' is just absurd.
sphexx
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I’m very surprised.
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I think with any discussion, it's useful to use facts and evidence to back up an argument. It's very easy to claim grouse shooting is overall bad, as there is plenty of evidence available regarding environmental damage, the breaking of laws etc. The only arguments that can be made in favour of continuing grouse shooting, relate to economic factors. But that's a pretty weak argument tbh; employment can be create in other, less environmentally damaging ways, and most arguments about 'environmentally conscious' shooting are pretty quickly rendered invalid by actual human behaviour; it's not good saying' oh but we can do this sustainably', when every landowner and gamekeeper just ignores that anyway. We know from experience that this won't be the case; little more than lip service will be paid to such advice. Money talks, and whilst rich people can get richer from grouse shooting, so it will continue. That's what it boils down to, basically.
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sphexx
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All over web. Here’s a couple:
Animal rights activist jailed for six years for Huntington Life Sciences plot
Debbie Vincent found guilty of involvement in European-wide campaign to terrorise animal testing firm and its suppliers
This one is different but in the same area and I post it because it’s Brian May:
Criticising the RSPCA is like wanting paedophiles to escape justice, Brian May claims
Attacking the RSPCA for bringing animal cruelty prosecutions is like arguing that paedophiles should not be put on trial, the Queen guitarist Brian May has suggested.
www.telegraph.co.uk
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The Cambridge Life Sciences case is pretty shocking, actually. More like terrorism and I'd like to think it was an exception.
sphexx
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And for a touch of balance...............
Hen harriers – a conservation success story with no thanks to the RSPB
Hen harriers – a conservation success story with no thanks to the RSPB
sphexx
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Indeed, and RSPB blocking the introduction from Spain was especially egregious. It could be argued there’s evidence the RSPB prefers birds to be endangered as it helps with their income.
I used to be an RSPCA member but became disgusted with the kinds of people who run it and are fairly vocal among their “activist” membership — not the majority of members of course who are probably regarded as “useful idiots” by the activists.
Edit: typos.
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And how many of those brood manipulated young hen harriers then go on to be killed on grouse moors?
I think the objections to the brood manipulation stem from the fact that so many hen harriers are killed - illegally - on grouse moors. If that were not the case there would be no need for messing around with breeding attempts like this. If the illegal killing could be stamped none of this would be necessary.
The same goes for the proposed re-introduction project.
sphexx
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I don’t know about hen harriers specifically but it is fairly common for raptors to fail to raise all their brood to fledging so brood manipultion is possibly a good thing. And of course if you remove the grouse shooters there will be a lot more predation of the grouse by foxes, mustelids etc.
The hen harrier reintroduction scheme was partly funded by... The British Association for Shooting and Conservation.
They are quite proud of that.
If you remove the shooters, those pretty purple mountains will be left to turn to scrub or turned over to forestry. Moorlands are a managed environment.
They are quite proud of that.
Another record year for hen harriers as 141 chicks fledge in England
New data from Natural England shows 141 hen harrier chicks fledged in England this year, the seventh year in a row numbers have increased.
basc.org.uk
If you remove the shooters, those pretty purple mountains will be left to turn to scrub or turned over to forestry. Moorlands are a managed environment.
sphexx
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Yes that’s the curious thing. People (and you can see it here in the landscapes — not criticising!) are particularly fond of extensive open vistas which are almost everywhere in England due to sheep and/or grouse.The hen harrier reintroduction scheme was partly funded by... The British Association for Shooting and Conservation.
They are quite proud of that.
Another record year for hen harriers as 141 chicks fledge in England
New data from Natural England shows 141 hen harrier chicks fledged in England this year, the seventh year in a row numbers have increased.basc.org.uk
If you remove the shooters, those pretty purple mountains will be left to turn to scrub or turned over to forestry. Moorlands are a managed environment.
Personally I‘d be quite happy if it all was returned to natural woodland with boar etc and wolves and lynx to keep them and the deer on their toes but I know I’m in a minority.
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I agree with you for once.
sphexx
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As a general rule we all have more in common than our differences! I hope we shall agree again … but not holding my breath