The Inglorious Twelfth

Cobra said:
I think most people would agree that its a photography forum.
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You've mentioned this a couple of times now but seemed happy to let the thread run with no mention of photography until I pointed out your comment about raptor persecution being over exaggerated?
 
Phil-D said:
All last known co co-ordinates over Grouse moors? Coincidence?
The question marks are for a reason, happy to listen other explanations as to why they all stop working over Grouse shoots.
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Do they ALL stop working over grouse shoots? Or are those the only ones likely to make headlines?

I'm on nobody's side in this debate, As I said earlier I don't trust what we are told from either faction and would prefer to see less emotive language used. All that ever does is serve to antagonize the 'opposition' and further division.

The original post in this thread being a prime example which was, IMO, posted to make statement rather than for photographic appreciation or criticism.
 
jerry12953 said:
I'm sure those that know can tell how and why a bird "disappears" from the way that the tag stops transmitting, but I can't find the reasoning. Perhaps someone else will come along with it.
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Battery failure electronics failure, there is no way to differentiate.
Occasionally you get a weak signal briefly as the battery fails,
But that depends on the quality of the battery, some give their all and then switch off.
Rather like camera batteries.
 
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Phil-D said:
You've mentioned this a couple of times now but seemed happy to let the thread run with no mention of photography until I pointed out your comment about raptor persecution being over exaggerated?
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As you well know, that was in response to you thinking that we are a conservation organisation!

Phil-D said:
Ya know Chris, as a falconer and co-owner of one of the largest photography forums out there, which actively promotes bird and wildlife conservation, I'm surprised you've actually said this on open/public forum.

Now I know what you're going to say, you're entitled to your opinion and I totally agree, you are.........I just think, sometimes, opinions are better kept to yourself.
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Cobra said:
We do? I thought that we were a photography forum, and as such actively promotes all area's and genera of photography.
Take a look there are around, you maybe surprised to to learn there are 40 odd forums to take part in, Discussions, challenges, information and a whole host of other things,
not just the the bird forums.
We are not a branch of the RSPB, BBONT, or the ( any) mammal society.
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Cobra said:
As you well know, that was in response to you thinking that we are a conservation organisation!
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Get it right, I stupidly thought TP promoted bird and wildlife conservation, among other types of photography, .....I was very disappointed to learn you neither do nor don't, as you pointed out........anyway, am bored now, I said I couldn't be arsed, I also said I hadn't learn when to keep me mouth shut, spouting when I should be listening as always been a problem for me :ROFLMAO:
 
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Phil-D said:
Get it right, I stupidly thought TP promoted bird and wildlife conservation
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I was para phrasing And that's why I quoted your post and mine, so we knew where we stood.

Phil-D said:
.I was very disappointed to learn you neither do nor don't, as you pointed out.......
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As I said ..
We cannot be seen to play favorites. Be that street, sports, N&G. etc etc.
The active forums promote themselves.

Phil-D said:
I also said I hadn't learn when to keep me mouth shut, spouting when I should be listening as always been peroblem for me :ROFLMAO:
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I'd noticed :p
 
Cobra said:
Battery failure electronics failure, there is no way to differentiate.
Occasionally you get a weak signal briefly as the battery fails,
But that depends on the quality of the battery, some give their all and then switch off.
Rather like camera batteries.
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I think I need to look harder. I'd like to be sure that the evidence on "disappearing" hen harriers is correct.
 
jerry12953 said:
I think I need to look harder. I'd like to be sure that the evidence on "disappearing" hen harriers is correct.
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If they were shot, it's easy enough to disable a transmitter, without much knowledge of how they work.
On the other hand, if they were tagged at the same time, it's feasible the batteries may fail around the same time.

However, I doubt the absolute truth will ever be known.
 
hunnymonster said:
All perfectly reasonable behaviour I'm sure....

www.bbc.co.uk

Golden eagle disappearance 'highly suspicious'

A group set up to highlight the persecution of birds of prey says it believes the bird it tagged was killed.
www.bbc.co.uk
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Just to throw in another idea, did they find the body?
Golden eagles are worth a lot of money alive, as breeders, and if you know what you are doing,
easy enough to trap.
 
Tagged cuckoos and ospreys have been flying to Africa and back for a few years now with no issues with the tags but birds of prey flying over or near grouse moors seem to have a high failure rate - I wonder why!!!!
 
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wilki said:
but birds of prey flying over or near grouse moors seem to have a high failure rate - I wonder why!!!!
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As above, could it be that cuckoo's have little or no value on the black market?
 
jerry12953 said:
I think I need to look harder. I'd like to be sure that the evidence on "disappearing" hen harriers is correct.
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Have a look at this Jerry - as well as the disappearance of tagged Hen Harriers there are examples of other causes of death
raptorpersecutionuk.org

101 hen harriers confirmed ‘missing’ or illegally killed in UK since 2018, most of them on or close to grouse moors

For anyone who still wants to pretend that the grouse shooting industry isn’t responsible for the systematic extermination of hen harriers on grouse moors across the UK, here’s the latest catalogue…
raptorpersecutionuk.org raptorpersecutionuk.org
 
jerry12953 said:
Sorry, that's just laughable. Wherever do you get these ideas from?
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I was adding another theory to the all the others posted in here,
Besides you have no idea how much protected species, Raptors, in this case, are worth on the black market.
 
jerry12953 said:
Still illegal though.
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Of course it is and that's why I said Black market
Not everyone is out to kill raptors, when they are worth £1000's alive.
 
jerry12953 said:
This link is to an RSPB paper, which some conspiracy theorists will find suspicious in itself. However I suggest you take it at face value.

https://community.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/b/scotland/posts/the-value-of-satellite-tagging
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I'm not sure what we're supposed to get from that page. Tags provide valuable scientific data and raptors are being killed illegally? We know that already.

Cobra said:
Of course it is and that's why I said Black market
Not everyone is out to kill raptors, when they are worth £1000's alive.
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If this is the case in some instances it would explain the lack of a corpse. Have any raptor groups looked into it?

The only way I can see to end the illegal activity is to somehow find a way to make the presence of raptors on shooting estates worth money to the shoot. But when those fighting the persecution might have an underlying agenda to ban all shooting that would seem unlikely to be sought as a solution.

It will be interesting to see what happens on Unitied Utilities lands now they are stopping renewing shooting leases.
 
Ed Sutton said:
If this is the case in some instances it would explain the lack of a corpse.
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Indeed.
The afore mentioned Golden eagle being "lost at sea" is a good example.
Why not take the tag a few miles down the road and then destroy, rather than taking 12 miles off shore?
What better way to disguise an illegal trapped bird? They were worth ( last I heard) about 5-6,000 legally obtained,
but for the extra genes in the pool a breeder would pay at least double if not treble.

Ed Sutton said:
Have any raptor groups looked into it?
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Conservation groups have, as per this thread, but falconry groups are more about hunting with their birds.
Of course if anything was spotted that was untoward, it would be reported to DEFRA.
Although the one I used to belong to, 2 of the members were responsible for releasing the red kites along bledlow ridge ( bucks).


Ed Sutton said:
But when those fighting the persecution might have an underlying agenda
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Might?
I'd say absolutely.
There are many anti hunting groups all with an agenda to stop any and all these type of sports.
That's why they tag them "Bloodsorts" to make it emotive.
And that includes fishing.
 
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Cobra said:
Might?
I'd say absolutely.
There are many anti hunting groups all with an agenda to stop any and all these type of sports.
That's why they tag them "Bloodsorts" to make it emotive.
And that includes fishing.
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"You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment." ;)
 
Ed Sutton said:
I'm not sure what we're supposed to get from that page. Tags provide valuable scientific data and raptors are being killed illegally? We know that already.


If this is the case in some instances it would explain the lack of a corpse. Have any raptor groups looked into it?

The only way I can see to end the illegal activity is to somehow find a way to make the presence of raptors on shooting estates worth money to the shoot. But when those fighting the persecution might have an underlying agenda to ban all shooting that would seem unlikely to be sought as a solution.

It will be interesting to see what happens on Unitied Utilities lands now they are stopping renewing shooting leases.
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1. One of the other posters was casting doubt on the "efficiency" and reliability of tags. Glad to see that you agree that the results of tagging are scientific.

2. it seems that the Scottish Government is going introduce a system of licensing for shoots. At the moment the evidence required for a successful prosecution of, say, a gamekeeper suspected of illegal activity, is very rarely conclusive enough. If there are suspicions but not enough concrete evidence for illegal activity the licence for a shoot to operate can be withdrawn under the new system (apparently).

3. It is not true that all those wanting a ban on what is already illegal are anti- all blood sports. There are many who would like to see what is already illegal brought to an end. This would include those on shoots which already comply with the law but who are at a disadvantage by doing so.

4. I'm sorry to say this but in my opinion you are seeing conspiracies where none exist.

5. And this doesn't necessarily apply to you, but there are those who continually muddy the waters with more "theories" when the evidence is already right in front of them that one theory is the correct one.
 
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jerry12953 said:
2. it seems that the Scottish Government is going introduce a system of licensing for shoots. At the moment the evidence required for a successful prosecution of, say, a gamekeeper suspected of illegal activity, is very rarely conclusive enough. If there are suspicions but not enough concrete evidence for illegal activity the licence for a shoot to operate can be withdrawn under the new system (apparently).
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my italic.

I’m fairly sure you don’t see that that is a perversion of the rule of law. You and others are “suspicious” of every ‘keeper, moor owner etc so they would all be found guilty without evidence. BTW “concrete” evidence is another evidence of bias. There is only evidence.
 
jerry12953 said:
1. One of the other posters was casting doubt on the "efficiency" and reliability of tags. Glad to see that you agree that the results of tagging are scientific.
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Tagging has revealed a lot regarding migratory patterns that would otherwise be nigh on impossible to learn any other way.
jerry12953 said:
3. It is not true that all those wanting a ban on what is already illegal are anti- all blood sports. There are many who would like to see what is already illegal brought to an end. This would include those on shoots which already comply with the law but who are at a disadvantage by doing so.
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I didn't mean to imply that all were opposed to shooting in general. I agree that those who are involved in shooting who want to see an end to the illegal activities are in an awkward position.
jerry12953 said:
4. I'm sorry to say this but in my opinion you are seeing conspiracies where none exist.
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I'm not seeing conspiracies. As I've said before, I don't trust what either side is telling us as being 'the whole truth'.
jerry12953 said:
5. And this doesn't necessarily apply to you, but there are those who continually muddy the waters with more "theories" when the evidence is already right in front of them that one theory is the correct one.
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'Your' theory is probably correct, but it might not be the whole story. I've been around long enough to have learned that you don't get people to change their ways by insulting or ridiculing them, or by trying to force them to change. It takes time but persuasion works. Better still, as I hinted at earlier, find a way for them to make money from the change.
 
jerry12953 said:
2. it seems that the Scottish Government is going introduce a system of licensing for shoots.
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I don't know how it works "up there" but I'm pretty that down here they already are

jerry12953 said:
If there are suspicions but not enough concrete evidence for illegal activity the licence for a shoot to operate can be withdrawn under the new system (apparently).
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Guilty until proven innocent?

Ed Sutton said:
I've been around long enough to have learned that you don't get people to change their ways by insulting or ridiculing them,
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I think he aimed that at me, water off a ducks back :)
jerry12953 said:
One of the other posters was casting doubt on the "efficiency" and reliability of tags.
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I explained how tags can fail, how they fail and what happens as a tag fails.
30 years of falconry taught me that.

No one is saying that the occasional game keeper doesn't shoot buzzards ( that is the most prolific BoP down here, I don't include red kites in that)
The last one local that I remember was about 10 years ago on an estate that I had permission to hunt rabbits with a BoP.
But don't accuse every gamekeeper for killing birds of prey.
As been shown there are many reasons why they could go missing.
 
Cobra said:
No one is saying that the occasional game keeper doesn't shoot buzzards
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To my (limited) knowledge what ‘keepres commonly do is cut down trees that hooky beaks might perch in. There are some rogues among ‘keepers, as everywhere but those I’ve met are knowledgeable and like wildlife in general and some have rogue or at least ignorant employers breathing down their necks.
 
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sphexx said:
but those I’ve met are knowledgeable and like wildlife in general
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That has been my experience as well, and I've met a few through falconry.
I was just admitting that a local one killed a buzzard about 10 years ago.
That should keep the anti-hunting brigade happy ;)
 
Cobra said:
That has been my experience as well, and I've met a few through falconry.
I was just admitting that a local one killed a buzzard about 10 years ago.
That should keep the anti-hunting brigade happy ;)
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But you can't admit that raptor persecution is a problem on grouse moors in the Peak District, North Yorkshire Moors, Yorkshire/Lancashire Pennines and Scottish Uplands. Sure there are some shooting estates which do not persecute raptors, but there are plenty that do.
 
wilki said:
But you can't admit that raptor persecution is a problem on grouse moors in the Peak District, North Yorkshire Moors, Yorkshire/Lancashire Pennines and Scottish Uplands
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I have no personal knowledge of these areas so, no.
 
Brendan Mulachy said:
im telling ya it cured my constipation :p
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Happened to me with a Tawny Owl 2 years ago. Probably a chance in a billion meeting but it does happen. My mate behind me said it hit the road but then flew off. I do wonder sometimes if it lived, I wasn't hanging about when it hit me. I was gutted but as I say, these things happen.


I've not got the whole context here but I do think an element of a few bad ones in all walks of life spoil it for the majority, whether that be gamekeepers, bikers, shooting folk, cyclists or whatever, the list is endless.
 
Dale. said:
Happened to me with a Tawny Owl 2 years ago. Probably a chance in a billion meeting but it does happen. My mate behind me said it hit the road but then flew off. I do wonder sometimes if it lived, I wasn't hanging about when it hit me. I was gutted but as I say, these things happen.
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Not quite the same thing but I’ve had birds hit my house windows* with a hell of a bang and seemingly recover and fly off.

* two windows on.opposite wall so it looks as though they could fly through I think.

Dale. said:
I've not got the whole context here but I do think an element of a few bad ones in all walks of life spoil it for the majority, whether that be gamekeepers, bikers, shooting folk, cyclists or whatever, the list is endless.
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You left out the worst of all — photographers :LOL: :exit:


Edit: typo birds not bids!
 
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sphexx said:
my italic.

I’m fairly sure you don’t see that that is a perversion of the rule of law. You and others are “suspicious” of every ‘keeper, moor owner etc so they would all be found guilty without evidence. BTW “concrete” evidence is another evidence of bias. There is only evidence.
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I'm sure those objections will be dealt with as the relevant legislation goes through the Scottish Parliament.
 
sphexx said:
To my (limited) knowledge what ‘keepres commonly do is cut down trees that hooky beaks might perch in. There are some rogues among ‘keepers, as everywhere but those I’ve met are knowledgeable and like wildlife in general and some have rogue or at least ignorant employers breathing down their necks.
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The evidence that gamekeepers persecute (and kill) birds of prey is overwhelming. It is so ingrained in their behaviour over possibly hundreds of years that they just can't help themselves. They may also be encouraged to do it by those that employ them - the landowners.
 
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