£40,000 for prisoners who had to wait to see the dentist

[Garry Edwards]

Some prisoners in Wakefield prison claimed that the NHS kept them waiting too long for dental treatment, and it was announced tonight that they are going to be paid £40,000 in compensation - and the legal fees amounted to another £310,000.

Now, I'm all in favour of human rights, and believe that prisoners should get proper medical treatment but...

If I want dental treatment then I have to pay for it myself because there are no NHS dentists in my area that accept new patients. If I can't afford private dental care then I have to go without, and I can't get legal aid to take action against the NHS so why should convicted criminals be BETTER OFF than law abiding citizens?

It seems to me that this is yet another example of the pendulum swinging too far. Everyone should be treated equally, criminals should not get better treatment than law abiding people.

 

[cambsno]

No doubt it's down to their human rights. Joke. Funny how the human rights of the hard working and honest individual is behind everyone else.

 

[archangel]

****...!!!!!!!!!! they should just be paid out with bread and water......stuff their teeth......infact let them all rot in their own sewage....RANT OVER!!!!!!

 

[Stratman]

Link?

 

[Oggy]

Daily wail by any chance?

 

[Gary]

whats the link?

i'll save you typing the first bit: www.dailymail.co.uk/

 

[Garry Edwards]

No link, ITV Calendar news

 

[cameradaft]

You speak a lot of sense sir! Pc has gone mad

 

[PatrickO]

I have worked in a health centre in a prison. In my experience health care for prisoners is very poor. Long waits even for life threatening problems. Very, very long waits for dentistry and similar. Necessary prescription medication not supplied because the prison is poorly organised.

Some of the prisoners are on remand, i.e. they have not been convicted of anything. Others are ex-servicemen who can't cope with life in civvy street. Many have mental illnesses.

There's two sides to every story...don't be too quick to judge.

 

[Keith W]

I have worked in a health centre in a prison. In my experience health care for prisoners is very poor. Long waits even for life threatening problems. Very, very long waits for dentistry and similar. Necessary prescription medication not supplied because the prison is poorly organised.

Some of the prisoners are on remand, i.e. they have not been convicted of anything. Others are ex-servicemen who can't cope with life in civvy street. Many have mental illnesses.

There's two sides to every story...don't be too quick to judge.

This

 

[Llama]

I have worked in a health centre in a prison. In my experience health care for prisoners is very poor. Long waits even for life threatening problems. Very, very long waits for dentistry and similar. Necessary prescription medication not supplied because the prison is poorly organised.

Some of the prisoners are on remand, i.e. they have not been convicted of anything. Others are ex-servicemen who can't cope with life in civvy street. Many have mental illnesses.

There's two sides to every story...don't be too quick to judge.

The assumption that criminals do it because they wont to is a bit stupid really. Most of them are from poor deprived backgrounds with ought the opportunities we have, and an unproportional amount have learning differences.

Wether its right they get paid or not is one thing, but the idea this is the hard working man getting screwed over in favour of the the worst people in society isn't really fair, not only can we defend ourselves far easier than they can, givin the opportunity to live a life like ours, don't you think most would take it?

Jack

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I have worked in a health centre in a prison. In my experience health care for prisoners is very poor. Long waits even for life threatening problems. Very, very long waits for dentistry and similar. Necessary prescription medication not supplied because the prison is poorly organised.

Some of the prisoners are on remand, i.e. they have not been convicted of anything. Others are ex-servicemen who can't cope with life in civvy street. Many have mental illnesses.

There's two sides to every story...don't be too quick to judge.

According to govt statistics only 3% of prisoners in England & Wales are ex-services and 10% are unconvicted remand, so that leaves 87% as convicted criminals.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, commit a crime that is deemed serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence and you should forefeit all but the most basic human rights

 

[u8myufo]

According to govt statistics only 3% of prisoners in England & Wales are ex-services and 10% are unconvicted remand, so that leaves 87% as convicted criminals.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, commit a crime that is deemed serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence and you should forefeit all but the most basic human rights

Placing the ones with a long sentence in prisons at the other end of the country to where they live would be a good idea as well. Our service men and women have to go for months on end without seeing their loved ones, some dont even make it back either.

 

[Garry Edwards]

The assumption that criminals do it because they wont to is a bit stupid really. Most of them are from poor deprived backgrounds with ought the opportunities we have, and an unproportional amount have learning differences.

Wether its right they get paid or not is one thing, but the idea this is the hard working man getting screwed over in favour of the the worst people in society isn't really fair, not only can we defend ourselves far easier than they can, givin the opportunity to live a life like ours, don't you think most would take it?

Jack

I had a poor, deprived background myself, with a sick mother trying to bring up 2 young kids on her own, without the benefits system that we have now. I know full well what it's like to go to bed cold and hungry.

Education was very poor then. The only way to achieve anything - let alone higher education - was to go to evening classes, after work, or to join the army. The army didn't appeal to me so I was left with the choice of contributing to society or being a leech on it.

So I made my choice, which was to learn and work my way out of poverty.

Maybe that's why I haven't got much sympathy for people who are too lazy and dishonest to do the same, especially in today's climate, where life is so much easier for the poor.

 

[swag72]

The assumption that criminals do it because they wont to is a bit stupid really. Most of them are from poor deprived backgrounds with ought the opportunities we have, and an unproportional amount have learning differences.

Wether its right they get paid or not is one thing, but the idea this is the hard working man getting screwed over in favour of the the worst people in society isn't really fair, not only can we defend ourselves far easier than they can, givin the opportunity to live a life like ours, don't you think most would take it?

Jack

I'm sorry, but it is beliefs like this that have got the modern Prison service into the state it is in today.

Prisoners do not see prison as a bad consequence to their poor behaviour in society. They are frankly wrapped up in cotton wool, given methadone to continue their addictions, human rights allows drugs to be easily got into prison ............. Please don't get me started. I don't agree in being inhumane to prisoners and treating them in an awful way, but people who break the law should have a consequence to their behaviour, not a free methadone script, free dentistry and access to many facilities that are better than many on the outside.

 

[realspeed]

One alternative to prison is public flogging, it would free up prison space, no chance for free dental/medical care and save the tax payer shed loads of money.

Realspeed

 

[gramps]

I'm sorry, but it is beliefs like this that have got the modern Prison service into the state it is in today.

Prisoners do not see prison as a bad consequence to their poor behaviour in society. They are frankly wrapped up in cotton wool, given methadone to continue their addictions, human rights allows drugs to be easily got into prison ............. Please don't get me started. I don't agree in being inhumane to prisoners and treating them in an awful way, but people who break the law should have a consequence to their behaviour, not a free methadone script, free dentistry and access to many facilities that are better than many on the outside.

there should never be inhumane treatment in prison but neither should there be reward for wrongdoing.

 

[Keith W]

Seriously!

There is so much absolute cr@p being spouted in this thread it is unbelievable!!

 

[archamedes]

seriously, we are not talking about prisoners with xboxes or going out on field trips to butlins, we are talking about medical care which should be a paramount importance. everyone deserves dental care regardless of who you are or where you come from, and just because you are in a prison doesn't justify that their level of care is much lower standard than outside the walls. Im sure some of you know how bad it is to put up with a toothace for a few days, it can get to the point where you wanna tear your own hair out, now imagine that for a very prolonged time in a prison enviornment. I appreciate that its ran by a prison and has different guildlines than in a dentist surgery, but its still ran by the nhs and theres no excuse to be left in pain or treated poorly just because you are a criminal.

According to govt statistics only 3% of prisoners in England & Wales are ex-services and 10% are unconvicted remand, so that leaves 87% as convicted criminals.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, commit a crime that is deemed serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence and you should forefeit all but the most basic human rights

you are also forgetting the very small % that were just at the wrong place at the wrong time and are very much innocent and are being tried for someone elses crime. There are no statistics to show how many of these people are in our jails because officials won't actually know who they are. It doesn't happen very often but it can and DOES happen, and it could happen to anyone of us, so its easy to say they made their choice and dont deserve rights because they are worthless criminals, however do you know how frustrating and destryoying it is to those who are being tried as criminals and are actually innocent. not relevent i know but still worth mentioning.

 

[gramps]

everyone deserves dental care regardless of who you are or where you come from

That's the point though isn't it, average Joe has to either pay to go private or struggle and wait to get an NHS dentist - why should prisoners get compensation for what is an everyday experience for everyone else?

 

[u8myufo]

Seriously!

There is so much absolute cr@p being spouted in this thread it is unbelievable!!

And your point being?

 

[archamedes]

Oh yes I do not agree with the whole 40,000 compensation when we on the outside wouldnt get that. i mean whats 40 grand when you are only allowed a £20 per week prison allowance? The probably do not deserve any compensation at all, but dental and medical care still needs to be a better standard, so the ones on a life sentence can happily see that to the full and not get out early because an untreated infection.
Every person in the uk does have a human right to medical care, people keep banging on about human rights laws, and i agree a lot of them are wrong and get abused by a minority (Dale farm and foreign criminals claiming to stay in the uk cos they have a pet etc...) but if they were taken away they would affect everyone and genuine people who need them would suffer.

 

[gramps]

people keep banging on about human rights laws, but if they were taken away they would affect everyone and genuine people who need them would suffer.

That's a very profound statement, yet I'm struggling to think of any 'genuine people' [i.e. your average UK citizen] who have ever found the need to make a claim that their human rights have been breached.
I can think of travellers who don't travel, illegal immigrants who rape and pillage or 'milk the system' but can't be deported, terrorist sympathisers who get benefits and housing and now prisoners who get paid for having the same problems with dentistry as you and me ... the list goes on, but I can't think of any of my neighbours or other hard-working, hard-pressed members of society who have done so.
Of course I could be wrong and if I am, no doubt someone will point to some examples.

 

[PatrickO]

Some of the opinions and "facts" quoted here really make me sad.

According to govt statistics only 3% of prisoners in England & Wales are ex-services and 10% are unconvicted remand, so that leaves 87% as convicted criminals.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, commit a crime that is deemed serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence and you should forefeit all but the most basic human rights

There are more ex-servicemen in prison or on parole than there are in Afghanistan. The percentage you have quoted is the MOD figure and the MOD have a vested interest in underestimating the true number. NAPO (National Probation Officers Association) have conducted surveys that suggest 1 in 10 or more of prisoners are ex-servicemen, mostly on convictions for violence or alcohol/drug related offences.

Isn't basic healthcare a human right?

Placing the ones with a long sentence in prisons at the other end of the country to where they live would be a good idea as well. Our service men and women have to go for months on end without seeing their loved ones, some dont even make it back either.

Many prisoners are placed at the other end of the country from their family. It tends to make rehabilitation and getting back to a normal job/life much harder.

I'm sorry, but it is beliefs like this that have got the modern Prison service into the state it is in today.

Prisoners do not see prison as a bad consequence to their poor behaviour in society. They are frankly wrapped up in cotton wool, given methadone to continue their addictions, human rights allows drugs to be easily got into prison ............. Please don't get me started. I don't agree in being inhumane to prisoners and treating them in an awful way, but people who break the law should have a consequence to their behaviour, not a free methadone script, free dentistry and access to many facilities that are better than many on the outside.

I've worked in a prison and I can't think of any healthcare that isn't worse than in the normal NHS. Withholding normal healthcare IS inhumane.
Drugs in prisons are a real problem. Most addicts I have spoken to are desperate to get off drugs. Most drugs are brought into prisons with the collaboration of prison staff (that's the view of Lord Ramsbotham, the former chief inspector of prisons and of a former prison governor)


Crime, prisons and rehabilitation is a difficult and complicated problem. Surely as well a deterring crime our aim should be to reduce the level of crime and that means an effective rehabilitation programme and getting ex-prisoners back to a normal family life and jobs.

 

[gramps]

Surely as well a deterring crime our aim should be to reduce the level of crime and that means an effective rehabilitation programme and getting ex-prisoners back to a normal family life and jobs.

laudable, but how does that square with them getting compensation for what is an everyday inconvenience for everyone else? Surely this just teaches them that crime does pay.

 

[swag72]

Most addicts I have spoken to are desperate to get off drugs.

Absolute rubbish - I worked in the prison service for 16 years in virtually every type of prison there is in UK. Prisoners who come in with a drug habit, in the main, do not want to come off drugs at all. They want a methadone script that will ensure that when they are released, they are released back into the community with said script.

A few years ago, we used to detox prisoners as a matter of course - That was stopped as someone took the prison service to court as their human rights were violated as they were detoxed, when the prisoner really wanted to stay on drugs. So until I left last year, we maintained massive amounts of prisoners on methadone.

Most drugs are brought into prisons with the collaboration of prison staff (that's the view of Lord Ramsbotham, the former chief inspector of prisons and of a former prison governor)

Sadly there are some bent prison staff around - but I disagree that the majority of drugs are bought in by prison staff - Visits is a wonderful way to bring in drugs, as was throwing it over the wall, coming into jail with your bottom litterally packed full of drugs straight from court.............. I could go on.

I agree that prison healthcare in the main was not of the best calibre and on the whole was worse than that on the outside. But prisoners still got to see fully trained and registered nurses, registered doctors on the same day as they requested it - Try getting that in your local surgery if you make an appointment. Fine if you want to sit there all morning in their open surgery, or dial constantly from 0800 to try to get an appointment for that morning.

 

[PatrickO]

laudable, but how does that square with them getting compensation for what is an everyday inconvenience for everyone else? Surely this just teaches them that crime does pay.

I don't know the facts of the case. I dont' know how long the delays were (weeks, months, years?). I don't have information on what treatment was needed (minor, major?).

However, I would be extremely suprised if any individual received £40,000 for delays in dentistry.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

you are also forgetting the very small % that were just at the wrong place at the wrong time and are very much innocent and are being tried for someone elses crime. There are no statistics to show how many of these people are in our jails because officials won't actually know who they are.

Oh come on now, are you seriously putting that forward as your argument?

 

[photon]

there are no NHS dentists in my area that accept new patients.

Any of these suitable, Gary?

 

[archamedes]

Oh come on now, are you seriously putting that forward as your argument?

not at all just including a minority of prisoners that wern't included in the original statistics that do exist, and are generally not considered or thought of which to be fair is upsetting.

 

[cyclamens]

The assumption that criminals do it because they wont to is a bit stupid really. Most of them are from poor deprived backgrounds with ought the opportunities we have, and an unproportional amount have learning differences.

Wether its right they get paid or not is one thing, but the idea this is the hard working man getting screwed over in favour of the the worst people in society isn't really fair, not only can we defend ourselves far easier than they can, givin the opportunity to live a life like ours, don't you think most would take it?

Jack

Sorry but...........just..can't even be bothered to abuse you for that one:shake:

I regularly come into contact with people with learning difficulties and agreed they are not always able to judge right from wrong - consciously or otherwise but giving us the same old cliched argument about opportunity - get real.

I don't want to get off my backside and go to work every day but I want a decent living standard so I do - my choice. Is their choice to bleat?

Good job we aren't all the same!

 

[Keith W]

...... but how does that square with them getting compensation for what is an everyday inconvenience for everyone else?

You Sir really haven't got a clue have you?

Twice now you have said the above and its utter cr@p

We are talking about prisoners waiting 1 - 2 years or more for basic NHS dental care, are you telling me this is the norm for everyone else?

If any person, as in non convict, waits that long then they are at perfect liberty to sue for compensation as well

 

[Keith W]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, commit a crime that is deemed serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence and you should forefeit all but the most basic human rights

I would say health care is a pretty basic right wouldn't you?

Some prisoners do not even get the very basic of health care

 

[Keith W]

And your point being?

You're big boy now so I am sure you can work it out for yourself

 

[Flash In The Pan]

I would say health care is a pretty basic right wouldn't you?

Some prisoners do not even get the very basic of health care

The statement Garry made in the op was that they were being awarded compensation for having to wait to get dental treatment, not that they were being deprived of it.

I'd be interested to see any documentary evidence you have that backs up your claim that prisoners in the UK are being deprived basic health care....

 

[gramps]

You Sir really haven't got a clue have you?

Twice now you have said the above and its utter cr@p

We are talking about prisoners waiting 1 - 2 years or more for basic NHS dental care, are you telling me this is the norm for everyone else?

If any person, as in non convict, waits that long then they are at perfect liberty to sue for compensation as well

and you Sir are talking out of the back of your head - non-prisoners don't get the option of compensation. Some ordinary people have been forced to pull their own teeth out because of not being able to get dental treatment! In some areas just the opening of a new NHS dental practice sees queues around the town such is the need!
As far as I am concerned convicted prisoners come at the bottom of the heap and as for compensation from the taxpayer ... sorry, talk to me about compensation for their victims, then I'll listen to you.

 

[whiteflyer]

I had a poor, deprived background myself, with a sick mother trying to bring up 2 young kids on her own, without the benefits system that we have now. I know full well what it's like to go to bed cold and hungry.

Education was very poor then. The only way to achieve anything - let alone higher education - was to go to evening classes, after work, or to join the army. The army didn't appeal to me so I was left with the choice of contributing to society or being a leech on it.

So I made my choice, which was to learn and work my way out of poverty.

Maybe that's why I haven't got much sympathy for people who are too lazy and dishonest to do the same, especially in today's climate, where life is so much easier for the poor.

One alternative to prison is public flogging, it would free up prison space, no chance for free dental/medical care and save the tax payer shed loads of money.

Realspeed

I'm sorry, but it is beliefs like this that have got the modern Prison service into the state it is in today.

Prisoners do not see prison as a bad consequence to their poor behaviour in society. They are frankly wrapped up in cotton wool, given methadone to continue their addictions, human rights allows drugs to be easily got into prison ............. Please don't get me started. I don't agree in being inhumane to prisoners and treating them in an awful way, but people who break the law should have a consequence to their behaviour, not a free methadone script, free dentistry and access to many facilities that are better than many on the outside.

Oh come on they are all nice chaps really, just things haven't gone quite their way. They are not to blame, it was somebody else's fault. We should be treating these poor misfortunate people with total humanity.







Hang em high
Public flogging is something I 100% agree with, especially those under 21, name and shame them.
Remember NOBODY who got the birch in the IOM ever committed another crime.

 

[Keith W]

The statement Garry made in the op was that they were being awarded compensation for having to wait to get dental treatment, not that they were being deprived of it.

I'd be interested to see any documentary evidence you have that backs up your claim that prisoners in the UK are being deprived basic health care....

You attempting to split hairs Graham and quite frankly its a bit childish

Making a person wait an inordernate amount of time would be considered depriving that person of basic health care

 

[Keith W]

and you Sir are talking out of the back of your head - non-prisoners don't get the option of compensation......

No I am not

"non-prisoners", as you put it, are at perfectly liberty to sue

 

[Marc]

You attempting to split hairs Graham and quite frankly its a bit childish

Making a person wait an inordernate amount of time would be considered depriving that person of basic health care

Keith, are you in a bad mood today or something? You seem to be getting a tad irate.

Graham's not being childish, he's just pointing out something that clarifies things. Plenty of people have to wait an inordinate amount of time for basic healthcare (I've just had to wait a year for Physio), they don't all get £40,000 in compensation though (if indeed hat is the case).

Personally, I think this is media hype anyway. I have my doubts that any prisoner got £40k purely because he had to wait a long time for dental treatment.