photon
Junior Member
- Messages
- 5,123
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I should think he's disgusted at suggestions that inhumane treatment seems to be thought of as OK.
Toothache is a dental emergency.
and the site receives a small commission
£40,000 for prisoners who had to wait to see the dentist
- Thread starter Garry Edwards
- Start date
I should think he's disgusted at suggestions that inhumane treatment seems to be thought of as OK.
Toothache is a dental emergency.
- Messages
- 780
- Name
- Jack
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Im not saying that every body who comes from poor backgrounds has to be criminals, but for me (and im sure lots of other people on this forum) i have no need to get into crime, but when you're in **** conditions and feel that theres no way to get out i have understanding of why people do it. I refuse to blame individuals entirely when its a reaction to a very screwed up system were born into
I agree with you in the fact that things have got better, and i agree the excuse is less but saying there aren't people who are living in great poverty and therefore i still have sympathy, far more than white collar criminals!
I'm sorry, but it is beliefs like this that have got the modern Prison service into the state it is in today.
Prisoners do not see prison as a bad consequence to their poor behaviour in society. They are frankly wrapped up in cotton wool, given methadone to continue their addictions, human rights allows drugs to be easily got into prison ............. Please don't get me started.I don't agree in being inhumane to prisoners and treating them in an awful way, but people who break the law should have a consequence to their behaviour, not a free methadone script, free dentistry and access to many facilities that are better than many on the outside.
Ok i understand your point, what would you prefer as an alternative?? :shrug: ?? they wont pay for methadone (most wont have the money), without heroin or methadone, some of them could die, therefore we would see the prison drug culture become even worse as it is even further out of control of the prison
My point is they make do the decision but, in so many ways our society forces people into it. One of biggest problems i have is we let the wealthy of with a slap on the wrist, and poorer people from difficult places (the people that do this to live not out of greed) take the blame the costs and have to do the time!
This is the sort of reason debating threads like this will get closed, if you disagree with the facts presented thats fine but give some reasoning and specific examples!
I and im sure others aren't here to pointlessly argue, we enjoy debating ideas and statements like this stop us from getting replies back when we find the thread closed from people unconstructively bickering :bang:
Please post more constructive things
(I apologise for spelling mistakes in advanced
)Jack
Marc
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 34,286
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Don't recall anyone saying that inhumane treatment is OK?
- Messages
- 780
- Name
- Jack
- Edit My Images
- Yes
No and somedays i don't really wont to go to school, but in the knowledge that our society will probably aim me towards a decent job (being a male white middle class person) but if i knew society would try and work against me then im not sure if i would have the same motivation especially if i new i could make alot more in 'alternative ways'.I think its important to sate im not condoning crime!
All im saying is that i have sympathy for a majority of the people that end up comiting it!
Jack
- Messages
- 7,973
- Name
- Sara
- Edit My Images
- Yes
For me the alternative was always a detox programme. By giving prisoners methadone scripts in jail, sometimes for in excess of a year, we are ensuring that they remain on methadone for a long time. At least if we detoxed them in conjunction with closing as many avenues as possible for getting drugs into jail we have a fighting chance of sending someone out at the end of it all who is not dependent on methadone.
- Messages
- 6,257
- Name
- Steve
- Edit My Images
- No
Llama said:
I think its important to sate im not condoning crime!
All im saying is that i have sympathy for a majority of the people that end up comiting it!
Jack
So you think crime is acceptable if it's more profitable than working?
Who do you think are the victims of these crimes ?
- Messages
- 41,940
- Name
- 'Gramps'
- Edit My Images
- No
- Messages
- 27,793
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I'm not splitting hairs, or indeed being childish, Keith. I merely asked you to back up your claim with some evidence, which it would appear from your reply that you are unable to do.
With regard to the levels of compensation being paid out, perhaps it should be made clear that the amount is £47,000 split between 25 inmates, not £40,000 each......
I think its important to sate im not condoning crime!
All im saying is that i have sympathy for a majority of the people that end up comiting it!
Jack
So who is society working against? It is a choice and stereotyping will not cut it with me I'm afraid.
Aiming a person toward a decent job is not the privilege of 'the white middle class' as you so eloquently put it although I think you should not pursue that viewpoint - it is the privilege of all in this country - whether or not they choose to accept it is a moot point.
Society does not owe anyone anything except those who are prepared to work and not just take it as a given.
Granted what society has done is create an ethos of 'I have to have more than you' - even if it means taking it!
Sorry - this is getting off thread
- Messages
- 27,793
- Edit My Images
- Yes
on the basis of this and some of your other posts I would urge you to strongly fight the desire and go.....
OP
Garry Edwards
Moderator
- Messages
- 12,345
- Name
- Garry Edwards
- Edit My Images
- No
I haven't checked, I don't need a NHS dentist.Any of these suitable, Gary?
But my middle son does, badly. He went through that same list, quite some time ago and none of the NHS dentists listed was accepting new patients - they just hadn't bothered to update their details.
He eventually managed to be seen at Leeds Dental Hospital, and then had to wait just over a year for his first appointment. Since then he has had one appointment per month and they've sorted out his most urgent problems, and they've done a great job for him. His last appointment is on Tuesday, there's plenty of work that still needs doing but he can't have any more appointments because they've done the urgent work (the things that caused unbelievable pain) and he now has to find a dentist - and won't be able to, because he doesn't earn enough to go to a private dentist and there are no NHS services available.
By contrast, convicted criminals get free dental care. Then dentists may not be the best and they may not get immediate treatment, but they still get better treatment than the general population.
Yes, and my son could sue too - but unlike the prisoners, he wouldn't get free legal aid. And if he could afford to pay lawyers he could afford private dental care. And who would he sue anyway? The prisoners had a clear route, their lives are under the control of the Home Office so they could sue the Home Office, but a law abiding citizen can't sue a dentist for not having vacancies and surely can't sue the government either, because the government has made money available for dental care - even if the money is inadequate.
I think it says something about our society when the only way that a person on low income can get dental care is to commit a crime and go to prison for it - and when the criminal can then get free legal aid to sue for compensation because he had to wait for the care...
What we have in this country is a situation where we have political NHS dental care - politicians of both parties agree that it needs to be available on the NHS but they've reduced the fees to the point where very few dentists are actually prepared to work for them. It's much the same situation with political freedom of choice of schools - it exists, but only in theory. If parents want their children to go to a good school the only real way of doing it is to buy a house next to the school.
Cris_L
Take That's Biggest Fan
- Messages
- 1,923
- Name
- Cris
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Gotta love threads like these!
I too have provided health care to inmates and you know what most of them were very friendly and grateful...they also asked me if next time I go in I could "get anything in" for them!
On the flip side..I actually agree, they should come at the bottom of the pile. Hardly seems fair a victim of a criminal has to pay through the nose for private dental treatment but the criminal themselves gets it free!
I too have provided health care to inmates and you know what most of them were very friendly and grateful...they also asked me if next time I go in I could "get anything in" for them!
On the flip side..I actually agree, they should come at the bottom of the pile. Hardly seems fair a victim of a criminal has to pay through the nose for private dental treatment but the criminal themselves gets it free!
- Messages
- 780
- Name
- Jack
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Yes i agree longer term things, i also think that from the reacher ive seen heroin is far more effective than the legal alternative
Ok i tried to hi-light this but obviously my post wasn't entirely read. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS OK!!!! only saying i have sympathy for it. im not saying its victimless or nice just that there are 2 sides two every story, and i can see the other persons side.
I can understand why you think that, but if you were employing someone, if someone came in who looked like they came from money, and an equally qualified person came in who was homeless, who will you employ?
I know who i would.
Our society works so that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, thus most of the opportunities get passed over the the rich obviously some exceptions but i personally believe this is fairly actuate model
on the basis of this and some of your other posts I would urge you to strongly fight the desire and go.....
i do, as i said i think sociaty makes it far more worthwhile for me to go Jack
- Messages
- 27,793
- Edit My Images
- Yes
A spellchecker may serve the same purpose though
Point 1 - sweeping generalisation - during a recent interview session of the three that actually bothered to turn up (sic!) - the job was given to the person considered to be the most suited - sex, colour or economic status were not on the list. As an employer the consideration is can the person do the job.....but nepotism and unfairness exists - so you are partially correct.
Point 2 - again a sweeping generalisation, however, not totally incorrect. There are plenty of individuals who have become rich because they have got up off their arses and worked for it. Not stolen it or who have sat back and expected it to be given to them on a plate.
There are also those who have inherited it from someone who has worked for it.....or, it could be thought, screwed someone else to get it.
It is also correct to assume that the poor are made poorer due to inflation/ no wage increases/tax increases - however, you do not also need a 50" TV, holidays in the sun, or to have more than someone else to have a happy life - there, that's another sweeping generalisation. It is human nature to want more.
Neither do you have to steal it - which all levels of society are, it seems, equally adept at.
The utopian state of all being equal has floundered due to some wanting to be more equal than others - it will not work.....as ideal as it may sound.
Human nature will confound all efforts to make it.
Go through life with a chip on your shoulder Jack and you may forever be one of the complaining minority.
Get over it - get your A levels and degrees then get out into the big world
Last edited:
Lynton
awkward customer
- Messages
- 10,606
- Name
- Lynton (yes really!)
- Edit My Images
- No
I regularly play golf with a retired prison officer.
He is horrified as to how prisons have changed over the last 50 years mainly, but much more so in the last 10-15 years.
Gone are the days when prison was a deterrent to many. I'm pretty sure, most are aware of those that immediately reoffend on release, in the hope of being convicted and sent back. Whether this is due to institutionalisation or "the cushy life" on the inside compared to the options on the outside who knows.
However, given the increased privatisation of prisons , prison officers and prison services (who will get the job for doing it the cheapest) then standards, and checks will dip.
Also there is the PC element moving in when officers generally now have to take crap from prisoners........ and address them as Mr Bloggs, or Joe, not "Bloggs".
The idea of prison, in my mind, is punishment and repentence, whereby the experience is so bad for the convict, there is no desire to reoffend, as they would not want to go through it again. (In his day, it was 3 days solitary bread and water, on arrival)
Personally, yes everyone has human rights, though in my opinion, those convicted of crimes, forfeit a certain amount of those, and my time and effort of medical / dentistry care, would be concentrated on the law abiding citizens, the decent people, the little old ladies, who worry how to pay for their heating. They'd be back of the queue and if time was available at the end of the day, then they would be attended to.
I'd also probably tier the medical needs as to what they were sentenced for.......... i.e. a murderer / rapist / nonce would be at the very bottom of the pile...........
Someone who genuinely messed up and was honestly remorseful they could move up a bit on the list. (But remain below the little old ladies by a long way.)
He is horrified as to how prisons have changed over the last 50 years mainly, but much more so in the last 10-15 years.
Gone are the days when prison was a deterrent to many. I'm pretty sure, most are aware of those that immediately reoffend on release, in the hope of being convicted and sent back. Whether this is due to institutionalisation or "the cushy life" on the inside compared to the options on the outside who knows.
However, given the increased privatisation of prisons , prison officers and prison services (who will get the job for doing it the cheapest) then standards, and checks will dip.
Also there is the PC element moving in when officers generally now have to take crap from prisoners........ and address them as Mr Bloggs, or Joe, not "Bloggs".
The idea of prison, in my mind, is punishment and repentence, whereby the experience is so bad for the convict, there is no desire to reoffend, as they would not want to go through it again. (In his day, it was 3 days solitary bread and water, on arrival)
Personally, yes everyone has human rights, though in my opinion, those convicted of crimes, forfeit a certain amount of those, and my time and effort of medical / dentistry care, would be concentrated on the law abiding citizens, the decent people, the little old ladies, who worry how to pay for their heating. They'd be back of the queue and if time was available at the end of the day, then they would be attended to.
I'd also probably tier the medical needs as to what they were sentenced for.......... i.e. a murderer / rapist / nonce would be at the very bottom of the pile...........
Someone who genuinely messed up and was honestly remorseful they could move up a bit on the list. (But remain below the little old ladies by a long way.)
Lynton
awkward customer
- Messages
- 10,606
- Name
- Lynton (yes really!)
- Edit My Images
- No
Yep that works with me........
- Messages
- 27,793
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Yup, the Knox case was a shameful moment for the British justice system.
Oh, wait............
Lynton
awkward customer
- Messages
- 10,606
- Name
- Lynton (yes really!)
- Edit My Images
- No
Then they do as Amanda Knox is doing... the book, the story for an alledged was it $10 or $20m US?
4 yrs for $20m......... good wage to me.
Personally, and this is just my own humble opinion using the media, as "fact" due to not being present in any court where she was involved ........ is it not being overturned on technicalities as to incontrovertible proof that she was or was not somewhere and did or did not do anything guv?
oh wait........ something that should have been presented at the trial.
Last edited:
G
gingerweasel
Guest
Anyone reading this thread can clearly see why we've ended up in this mess - liberal apologists. No one is ever to blame for their own actions, 'it was my childhood', 'mummy never hugged me enough', 'we had no money', 'I didn't have a job', 'daddy left us'.
Jesus Christ ... I really do despair for the future of our race.
We see stuff like this all the time. I remember when I was first out of work and had to attend the unemployment office. They had an amazing course on offer for skills which were in very high demand but I couldn't get on the course because I didn't meet the criteria. One being that I had a substance abuse issue or a non-violent criminal conviction.
Criminals have choices they just choose to do the wrong thing, so stuff them. They certainly shouldn't have a right to vote whilst in prison, they should get basic accommodation, basic food, standard health care (equal to that of the general public) and access to free education (equal to that of the general public).
They had to wait for NHS care, guess what so do we, including my Nan who was diagnosed with cancer (and she is a law abiding citizen).
We have prisoners who get better treatment than our elderly. You want to stand up for someones rights start there.
Makes my blood boil somedays..
Jesus Christ ... I really do despair for the future of our race.
We see stuff like this all the time. I remember when I was first out of work and had to attend the unemployment office. They had an amazing course on offer for skills which were in very high demand but I couldn't get on the course because I didn't meet the criteria. One being that I had a substance abuse issue or a non-violent criminal conviction.
Criminals have choices they just choose to do the wrong thing, so stuff them. They certainly shouldn't have a right to vote whilst in prison, they should get basic accommodation, basic food, standard health care (equal to that of the general public) and access to free education (equal to that of the general public).
They had to wait for NHS care, guess what so do we, including my Nan who was diagnosed with cancer (and she is a law abiding citizen).
We have prisoners who get better treatment than our elderly. You want to stand up for someones rights start there.
Makes my blood boil somedays..
Last edited by a moderator:
- Messages
- 780
- Name
- Jack
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Ok point 1, that may be what people say (i dont doubt the study) but not many employers are going to admit to these stereotypes are they??
I also believe its not just a problem with getting a job, its the jobs people feel they can go for. Richer and more advantaged kids naturally get set up in life to get the better jobs, so even if the employers are not being prejudice. I would still guess the majority of let say bankers and lawyers are white middle class and probably male, the employers might not be choosing that stero-type that but, if thats who turn up to the interview then thats what they'll have to chose.
What we are told at school (what area you live defines what school you will go to, and they will probably give you different expectations (and wealthy areas generally have better schools within there catchment area)) determines what we feel able to do, if you've always been told you best expectation is a plumber or mechanic, that probably the best you will do.
So i don't think our problems with inequality is that simple.
Point 2
Think what you wont and there are obviously exceptions to every rule, but i've seen statistics (and sure you'll have seen them as well) of the top %10 have become x richer while the bottom %10 have become x poorer
You can say thats a sweeping generalisation but when the data i can see shows that it does fit most circumstances, i think that a generalisation is an acceptable thing to use.
Im also not trying to say everybody should be equel, i think it has potential to work in very small groups(i mean below 100 people) but just because something isn't ever going to be ideal doesn't mean you should sit back and let it get worse.
And what you said about me having a chip on my shoulder, i dont mind having it, with out it id feel id fall into the ever-growing group of ignorant people. Everybody has a chip on there shoulder about something, id prefer mine to matter and be about something important!
Dont you think a statement like 'get over it' is a little immature?? if id started of by saying 'there people too get over it', i don't think anybody would have really listened to me. And they'd have been right not to, stand up for what you believe in, if everybody just excepts what others do you will have no control over you're life.
Jack
Last edited:
- Messages
- 5,022
- Name
- Mike
- Edit My Images
- No
The day they broke the law was the day they should have lost all benefits of social, health or educational welfare. .............8x6 cell, bread, water and a bone at Christmas......
I know what it is like to face total financial destruction after working from before I left school, paying my taxes as well as living through the worst civil unrest in the United Kingdoms history........ I didn't have to commit crime or hurt anyone.....
but when I went to see about financial help to help me and my family, i was told that because I had worked for self employed for over 3 years i no longer qualified for any social assistance..........WTF.....yet if I had of stole from the bank ( makes a change from them stealing from us) I would have got a warm, comfy room with Sky,Xbox, 3 square meals a day, muscles and regular sex (whether i wanted it or not) and to round it all off NOT A PENNY OF RENT/Mortgage/COUNCIL TAX or INCOME TAX TO PAY..............and not to forget the free medical care............no waiting lists in prison......
RANT OVER!!! THAT IS ALL!!!!!!