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To make such an either/or statement about epistemological relativism marks you out as a bit of a troll really AFAIC.
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A Level Playing field - for Critique
- Thread starter Carlh
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I can't believe that anyone sane truly believes in epistemological relativism beyond its utility for a bit of intellectual masturbation.
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I'm assuming you've never had an experience of expanded consciousness.
Edit: this isn't the place for this.
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I've taken hallucinogens if that's what you mean. But the most likely - and most empirically supported - explanations for psychedelic and "expanded consciousness" experiences are based in neurology that is rather more pedestrian than the mystical, new-age interpretations.
Who was it that said "there are no epistemological relativists at 35,000 feet"?
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No, that is not what I mean. This is a pointless debate and a massive thread hijack.
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You believe consciousness comes from within the body and I do not. Never the twain shall meet.
You were the one who brought up "quantum psychology".
Another quick recommendation: "Phantoms in the Brain" by V.S. Ramachandran is a good neurology text aimed at a lay audience which explains (among other things) the neurological foundations of mystical and expanded experiences. It describes very entertainingly how cognitive illusions like spiritual experiences can arise from biological phenomena.
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The arrogance of science.
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I've not read Wilson yet, but I'd be interested in knowing.... does he present any evidence to suggest consciousness comes from outside the body? What particular book does he discuss this in? I'd be very interested read what he's written on this.
It's not arrogance. It's just the unashamed laying out of the objective data. It's there to be challenged.
It's only called "arrogance" by people who can't produce the measurable, falsifiable data to challenge it. Scientists love having their data challenged; it's what moves things forward. Challenging data and hypotheses to their limits is the daily work of scientists (that and a lot of washing up, if you're a lab scientist).
If you want to design a robust, controlled experiment to measure or detect external consciousness the scientific world would be all ears, I guarantee it.
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I don't want to get into a debate on this. As stated before, I am a student of non-duality and consider this kind of ego-driven debate utterly pointless and without merit. Feel free to debate it amongst yourselves.
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This is not to do with RAW. He may have covered these things, but he comes from a position similar to the above book. I find it interesting, but do not agree.
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Sorry... just jumped in without reading previous page. Thought you were on about Wilson.
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What were we talking about originally? 
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What were we talking about originally?
I have no idea. But you surely deserve bonus points for working "epistemological relativism" into a thread on a photo forum
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That was ghoti originally... And it was an insult!I have no idea. But you surely deserve bonus points for working "epistemological relativism" into a thread on a photo forum
big soft moose
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy...
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I have no idea. But you surely deserve bonus points for working "epistemological relativism" into a thread on a photo forum
Furher prizes are available for the first person to mention antidisestablismentarianism or to discuss the photoshoot they carried out in llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
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Did I miss something?
ancient_mariner
Moderator
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What happened to her? This kind of conversation would have been right up her street.
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What were we talking about originally?
I believe it was photographs and how to critique them. My take is if I like it I like it and if I don't......etc
Then again I am a simple soul who is easily pleased.
PS
Pookey
Loved your Fylde shots as I had to keep going back to them to look again. For me if you keep going back to look again then they are worth calling art.
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I'd like to thank the people who have posted on this thread numerous times for reminding me why I don't post photographs on this forum. The amount of egotistical testosterone flying round in this thread in particular is nauseating!
The OP posted a perfectly sensible and reasonable question. This was followed by:
As an outsider who has watched this forum - but is not experienced enough to take a chance on the wit of those who patently display little or no self discipline or restraint, the best analogy I can think of relates to another interest of mine. I am a keen football fan. My favourite team is good (though not outstanding.) When I visit a particular football forum - I see posters absolutely annihilating the performances of player in my favourite team for the simple reason that they are not as good as the players in the Manchester City Teams, Liverpools or Chelseas of this world. They will never measure up to that kind of comparison. They never cost as much as those players.
The true comparison would be with players who are in teams at a similar level to my favourite team- but people just can't help themselves "laying in" to the players and over highlighting their faults.
Similarly - the crits I see all to frequently on this forum seem to assume that the pictures posted have been presented as potential national award winning images - which are subsequently shot down in flames by folks in, what sometimes appears to be a deeply unpleasant manner.
When I see the tone of the forum as exemplified within this thread - it doesn't take too much working out to see why!
I'm really grateful - since I have only recently started coming back to this forum - and I had mistakenly thought that there was a modicum of good will knocking about - but I'm quite clearly mistaken.
The OP posted a perfectly sensible and reasonable question. This was followed by:
- Statement from poster
- Justification for statement by poster
- Explanation for the justification for the statement by the poster.
- A sub justification
- A sub explanation
- Further justifications and explanations ad nauseam!
- A number of arguments and sub arguments - some of which relate to this thread - some patently relating to relationships that have festered in other quarters.
As an outsider who has watched this forum - but is not experienced enough to take a chance on the wit of those who patently display little or no self discipline or restraint, the best analogy I can think of relates to another interest of mine. I am a keen football fan. My favourite team is good (though not outstanding.) When I visit a particular football forum - I see posters absolutely annihilating the performances of player in my favourite team for the simple reason that they are not as good as the players in the Manchester City Teams, Liverpools or Chelseas of this world. They will never measure up to that kind of comparison. They never cost as much as those players.
The true comparison would be with players who are in teams at a similar level to my favourite team- but people just can't help themselves "laying in" to the players and over highlighting their faults.
Similarly - the crits I see all to frequently on this forum seem to assume that the pictures posted have been presented as potential national award winning images - which are subsequently shot down in flames by folks in, what sometimes appears to be a deeply unpleasant manner.
When I see the tone of the forum as exemplified within this thread - it doesn't take too much working out to see why!
I'm really grateful - since I have only recently started coming back to this forum - and I had mistakenly thought that there was a modicum of good will knocking about - but I'm quite clearly mistaken.
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big soft moose
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Much as David and I don't always see eye to eye - as we've amply demonstrated here - I'd second that comment, they are indeed a really nice set
MWHCVT
In Memoriam
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I'd personally suggest you need to actually interact a little more in the forum before lambasting it and the community so...though of course different communities suit different individuals but I would sincerely hope you'd be able to find a way to become part of this community
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Can't say I've ever seen any "deeply unpleasant" criticism anywhere on this forum. I've not even seen any "harsh" criticism.
I'm sure it happens but I've not seen it.
I've seen lots of what I would consider good criticism that is honest and dispassionate (the way it should be) that people get unduly upset about. I suspect - and it's nothing more than a suspicion - this is because people often put up photographs in the crit fora that are actually photographs they are particularly proud of, rather than pics they honestly want criticised, and they get upset when their feelings aren't validated with gushing praise.
I'm sure it happens but I've not seen it.
I've seen lots of what I would consider good criticism that is honest and dispassionate (the way it should be) that people get unduly upset about. I suspect - and it's nothing more than a suspicion - this is because people often put up photographs in the crit fora that are actually photographs they are particularly proud of, rather than pics they honestly want criticised, and they get upset when their feelings aren't validated with gushing praise.
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FIIK.........you lot have mashed my head in with this thread....................What were we talking about originally?
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Nothing but friendly debate going on here.
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I suggest the poster lightens up!
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Thank you for your reply. I think I've interacted more than sufficiently for the moment, thank you.
Let me just ask you to imagine yourself as a new user on this forum - and start this thread from top to bottom. What message would you receive about the board and the main protagonists?
I would love this forum to be somewhere where I felt that my emerging - growing (though rather embryonic) - ability as a photographer - but with very, very much to learn could be posted secure in the knowledge that it would be treated reasonably and fairly. My honest view - having read the forum for several years - is that it demonstrably is not.
I think its a terrible shame and I fear that the ridiculing of this board that I have seen in other quarters of the internet may sadly be justified. Although I am a very secure person in "real life" I am utterly vulnerable with regards to my images - and when faced with the fundamental question "is this forum trustworthy" in the manner previously described - I find that the answer is - as I have set out - emphatically "No!"
Perhaps I have been unlucky and unfortunate in the posts on this forum that I have read - its just that I appear to be ....repeatedly unlucky and unfortunate ....with regards to that.
I really wish that it was though - and that is why I have shared my thoughts - that it might yet provoke some reflection. More hope than expectation, I fear!
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Thank you for your interest in my personal welfare! I feel perfectly enlightened....thank you
simon ess
Just call me Roxanne.
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The forum is made up of people, with all their faults and foibles; with all their good points too.
All communities are made up of a cross section of people with different opinions, different experiences and different temperaments.
It would be an odd forum if this were not the case, and not one I would particularly enjoy.
All communities are made up of a cross section of people with different opinions, different experiences and different temperaments.
It would be an odd forum if this were not the case, and not one I would particularly enjoy.
StephenM
I know a Blithering Idiot
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First, I have to say that I didn't read the thread in the same way that you have, and my recollection of it doesn't fit your precis. I read it as
OP suggests that before you can make a critique you have to put your own photo up for critique. Those who don't post photos are not allowed to advise others.
Various reasons were put forward why this wasn't a good idea.
And the thread went off topic - in a way that made me come close to unsubscribing from it.
On the point I've highlighted, I don't quite see the problem with that approach (apart from the "shot down in flames" - I'd personally never offer critique on an image that was so poor unless I felt that the photographer had real potential despite this one poor image). If critique is offered against an image with a view to allowing the photographer to recast it as an image of the very highest quality (whatever that might be) isn't that better than looking at a poor image and advising on how to make it mediocre? What's wrong with setting the sights high, and assuming that the photographer is actually capable of achieving that level? Apologies if I've misunderstood you.
I note that you're vulnerable with regards to your images - so presumably you want to be treated with kid gloves and have (if necessary) the truth distorted a little to make it palatable? I haven't looked at your gallery (assuming it exists) so I can't comment on your ability (or my perception of it); but I could suggest that if you believe in your images, you should be able to defend them - to yourself, if not to others .
Edited for typos.
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MWHCVT
In Memoriam
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The reality is that I a community with some 60,000+ members of which about 6,500 or so are regularly active your going to have many conflicting personalities, occasionally as has been aptly demonstrated in this thread those personalities will clash, this is however no different to real life...anything that happens in real life will also happen here when it comes to debates and yes even full blown arguments, occasionally I've gone away from a thread completely fuming with what has been said, the wonderful thing is here the moderators on the whole are pretty level headed an able to make the right call most of the time...not that I always agree with what they do..
If I was a newbie looking at this thread, honestly I probably wouldn't understand a lot of it as critique by its very nature is not the most straight forward of subjects and can be almost as emotive as the likes of Canon vs Nikon
I'd be intrigued as to the supposed ridiculing of this forum as I know this forum to be nothing but a fantastic community and resource to be a part of and I'm proud to be a member, I have searched in the past for reviews of the forum externally and all I ever found were bitter remarks from people banned from classifieds or banned for generally being a negative drain on the community....
I've learnt so much from this forum from the advice I've received via critique and as mentioned by another poster above I've very few recollections of where a poster has been rude towards a fellow member and it not been dealt with by a moderator, I have seen instances of people complaining about the actions of members, only to be ask if they reported it, responding with I don't want to tell on people or no I didn't, as decent as the team here is they cannot see every issue and deal with every gripe without members help, with reports they are but a small few members in the staff team
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All I've seen here is people be honest about things they passionately believe, you seem to be the only one who's taken it in the worst possible way so I'd suggest it's perhaps you who needs to change how you view things. "Egotistical testosterone" is a spectacularly over the top way of describing what's going on here.
Maybe you could link to a thread or two where you feel the critique has been deeply unpleasant. It might help frame the debate a little better if we know what we're all talking about.
SarahLee
TPer Emerita
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Of course you're entitled to your perception - but might I suggest that you go back to the threads where you feel posters have been held up to too high a standard or subject to overly harsh critique and just check how the thread was opened and what the OP said by way of introducing his/her photos?
I'd hazard a guess that the images were just posted without a word of explanation or background. This IMO is one of the major sticking points when it comes to how crit is targeted on the forum.
Present a photo without any explanation and of course posters are just going to tell it as it is.
Post an explanation "This is my first thread and I'm feeling a little insecure because I'm new to photography. I was aiming to capture abc or evoke emotion d. What I'd like to know is xyz etc etc" and although I'd still expect honest critique I think you'd find that the level of crit was tailored to the experience of the poster.
And of course, there's always the RTM button if you still feel that something is out of line. We don't actually read every single thread!
There are lots of places on the internet where you can post to receive dozens of 'nice shot' comments, but far, far fewer where you'll receive honest critique and feedback on how to improve.
Like most things in life though, you only get out what you put in. If you want considered and specific critique aimed at a particular experience level, then put some effort in up front and TELL posters that's what you're looking for!
TBH though, my personal observation is completely different. In fact, Id love to see more proper critique and fewer "great shot" comments.
p.s. As for this thread. When people are passionate about a subject it often ends in a heated debate and as long as things stay away from personal insults, that's pretty much OK.
EDIT : And on the topic of passion . . . While we may all disagree from time to time, there's something about this place that keeps us all coming back. So it's nice to see members rushing in to defend TP's honour
I think Joe has probably heard enough to know how we all feel about this place though, so time to draw a line under that point of discussion now.
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Your vulnerability is your own problem, not everyone else's. You're not the only person in the world to be insecure about their own work but I don't see anyone else expecting other people to change.
I think your approach to this is really quite out of order to be honest.
Matt
TPer Emeritus
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Perhaps if you had reported the offending threads, we may have been able to take a view and act if required. A lot of people bellyache that they dont like this and they dont like that, but they dont report the posts so the mod team can do what they can to help keep it all running smoothly.