A Level Playing field - for Critique

[ghoti]

Personally, I'm a member of a few photography forums and I think this place has a core handful of users who knock the socks off anyone on other forums for interesting perspectives and general mind food. Pookeyhead and Phil V are two that spring to mind who always make me stop to look when I see their user names on the "latest posts" feed, but there are others.
In fact it's this that keeps me coming back here more often than some of the other forums.

I don't always agree, but interesting doesn't always mean agreement in any part of life. And, in fairness, I tend to enjoy a more robust and forthright style of discourse. I like my opinions and ideas challenged rigorously.

I was quite disappointed when The23rdMan copped out with the "agree to disagree" gambit earlier but I'll concede it was off topic and not the place for the discussion. I hope it came across as intended: i.e. robust but essentially friendly debate.

 

[Byker28i]

Thank you for your reply. I think I've interacted more than sufficiently for the moment, thank you.

Let me just ask you to imagine yourself as a new user on this forum - and start this thread from top to bottom. What message would you receive about the board and the main protagonists?

Would they have read this thread fully? I don't think you have. I've certainly skipped over some of the higher discussions. It's not the sort of thread a new user would get into as it's one of the more intense discussions ( and derails) we've had recently.

Really it depends on what a new user would loom for, but I'd suggest equipment suggestions, locations, a look at some images similar to their interests and probably the second hand kit. Intensely deep discussions usually come after a while.

Unfriendly? Nah, take a look in the welcome forum.

Still, to paraphrase from the Star Wars thread, perhaps this isn't the droid, sorry forum, you are looking for.

 

[Byker28i]

If we take another example, If I post this for crit

And you tell me that it's clear that i was intending to evoke the tranquility of the scottish wildernes, and that the juxtaposition of the light house is clear symbolism of mans isolation in the wilderness, or some such

Then that helps me not at all (especially as the principal motivation was "oh thats a pretty view, may be i'll be able to sell it as a print")

If you tell me that ive over cooked the processing, blocked the blacks, should have used a grad filter to retain detail in the foreground , that there's cack on the sensor , and the sillohouttes arent quite sharp due to the tripod not being as steady as it should have been - and that generally its not very good , and it could have been done better by doing x,y, z - then thats actually helpful and worthwhile.... and accurate

(btw before anyone starts with 'if thats the best you can do' type comments, this was shot in 2007 with my first DSLR - I'm only using it as an example because it was the first suitable shot that came to hand.)

Sorry missed this yesterday, so in an attempt to get back on track.

Surely both types of critique are valid though. As I've already said, critique isn't always just for the original poster, but also helps the person giving the critique and ultimately promotes discussion or thought. You might appreciate the technical advice (which lets face it is reasonably easy to give in this case), but a deeper reflection of the image, perhaps referencing other art or photographers could promote a discussion in other ways and may lead you (or others) to consider other options when faced with a similar situation again.

At the same time, there's no wrong critique, provided it's not rude . Photography is a subjective process so they'll always be a difference of opinion but so long as that promotes discussion then everybody learns something.

 

[The23rdman]

Personally, I'm a member of a few photography forums and I think this place has a core handful of users who knock the socks off anyone on other forums for interesting perspectives and general mind food. Pookeyhead and Phil V are two that spring to mind who always make me stop to look when I see their user names on the "latest posts" feed, but there are others.
In fact it's this that keeps me coming back here more often than some of the other forums.

I don't always agree, but interesting doesn't always mean agreement in any part of life. And, in fairness, I tend to enjoy a more robust and forthright style of discourse. I like my opinions and ideas challenged rigorously.

I was quite disappointed when The23rdMan copped out with the "agree to disagree" gambit earlier but I'll concede it was off topic and not the place for the discussion. I hope it came across as intended: i.e. robust but essentially friendly debate.

I'm happy to discuss that off of this thread.

 

[2310 Return]

Your vulnerability is your own problem, not everyone else's. You're not the only person in the world to be insecure about their own work but I don't see anyone else expecting other people to change.

I think your approach to this is really quite out of order to be honest.

Brilliant!

And let that be a warning to all the newcomers on this forum!

Of course you're entitled to your perception - .

Apparently not!!?

 

[PMN]

Brilliant!

And let that be a warning to all the newcomers on this forum!

I'm not aiming that at all the newcomers, I'm aiming it squarely at you.

Why are you so obsessed by newcomers anyway? New people drop into this forum all the time, leave them alone and let them make their own minds up.

Apparently not!!?

Again, it seems you're the only one who thinks that.

 

[The23rdman]

This isn't Joe Scrivens is it?

 

[PMN]

This isn't Joe Scrivens is it?

I was actually wondering whether it was a tragic attempt at trolling!

 

[Byker28i]

Chaps, ignore and move on. Let's not get dragged down to 2310 level. To easy to jump on the slagging off bandwagon which isn't what this forum is about.

 

[simon ess]

We all have our perceptions Joe and we are entitled to them.

I have my perceptions of different contributors on this forum just as I have my perceptions of politics, religion and my next door neighbour.

I also have my perception of what others on this forum think of me.

All these perceptions come from within me, although one contributor to this thread may disagree with that and are almost certainly wrong - apart from when they're right.

If I were to let loose all my perceptions in a hissy rant I would expect the same result that would unfold in a bar on a Friday night - a good kicking.

My message to a newcomer would be, hey, how you doing? Chill, relax, get to know folk, enjoy. Don't take it too seriously, it's just an internet forum.

My message would not be - beware all ye who enter here.

And if you don't like it you really don't have to stay you know. It's ok to think, "you know what, that forum's not for me. I think I'll look elsewhere."

 

[StephenM]

Joe - I can understand and sympathise with your vulnerability about your images. When I first started in photography (actually before you were born) I was exactly the same; I was in awe of not only what others did, but what they knew. Composition was a dark art, and as to art - well, that was darker than dark. I knew how little I knew, and how poor my efforts were. What made the biggest difference to me was probably long discussions and critique from the next door neighbour of one of my aunts when I was 16. However, as Sarah suggested, you should explain what you're looking for when asking for critique, otherwise people simply don't know.

As to your opinions and perceptions - no problem. You're entitled to them. But, again as suggested, could you meet people half way and point out the threads and comments that gave rise to this perception?

 

[Stevie-]

It's like a trashy novel this thread - all twists and turns!

 

[The23rdman]

Food for thought... http://m.mentalfloss.com/article.php?id=30937

 

[simon ess]

Indeed - thanks for that.

Iris Murdoch just went up several notches in my estimation.

 

[ghoti]

I'm happy to discuss that off of this thread.

Well, if you want to start a thread about consciousness and associated problems I'm happy to participate.

 

[simon ess]

Well, if you want to start a thread about consciousness and associated problems I'm happy to participate.

That could be very interesting.

In the context of photography, I would be particularly interested in views about the extent to which our consciousness, and the expression of it through the medium of photography, is internally or externally driven.

Ooh, I have so many conflicting opinion and thoughts about that.

It definitely needs a thread of its own.

 

[2310 Return]

I was actually wondering whether it was a tragic attempt at trolling!

Not even remotely!

It is the honest and earnest viewpoint of a legitimate poster. Apparently - and I believe because I'm not one of the "in" crowd here - my views and I are clearly not welcome! They are nevertheless my views and there is nothing I have seen - most especially your most delightful directness - which could ever convince me that any word (which I typed thoughtfully and carefully) was inaccurate or incorrect!

I didn't wish to overplay the vulnerability element - since I'm pretty robust and not so bothered - nevertheless - the word that I used has been picked up on and that has become the characterisation associated with me as a poster on this thread. You must be very proud, therefore, that someone who is being characterised thus is someone you spoke to in such a delightful manner!!

You don't know the first thing about me - but because I have views that differ with you - you have gone out of your way to be deeply personal and unpleasant!

I have been asked to draw specific attention to examples of the kind of issue I mean. If anyone is looking for the kind of attitude that I am referring to (though to be fair I have never seen this poster before) please see immediately below.

I'm not aiming that at all the newcomers, I'm aiming it squarely at you.
Why are you so obsessed by newcomers anyway? New people drop into this forum all the time, leave them alone and let them make their own minds up.
Again, it seems you're the only one who thinks that.

Could anyone explain to me where phraseology such as this sits in the context of "the friendliest" photography forum on the internet?

I am, nevertheless, deeply grateful for your most helpful illustration of the very point I was trying to make from the outset!!

To the gentleman who very reasonably suggested this isn't the place for me - patently that is true - and I thank you for your courtesy and reasonable manner!!

 

[PMN]

since I'm pretty robust and not so bothered

Really?...

you have gone out of your way to be deeply personal and unpleasant!!

Seriously, if you think I've been "deeply personal and unpleasant" you need to rethink a few things. I've been blunt, yes, but frankly considering your arrogance and the manner in which you've stormed into this thread I consider it to be perfectly justified.

Could anyone explain to me where phraseology such as this sits in the context of "the friendliest" photography forum on the internet? !

People disagree, passionate people disagree strongly to the point of arguing. Welcome to life, that's kind of how it works. Give me truly passionate people arguing the toss about things they genuinely love and believe in over false people sitting around politely patting each other on the back and keeping their real inner thoughts to themselves any day.

If you could be bothered to open your eyes and look at the forum outside your monumentally blinkered view you'd see there are some awesome people giving their time to others here on a daily basis, people being helped with all kinds of things on a daily basis, new members being warmly welcomed on a daily basis. Seriously, the problem here is with you, not TP.

 

[2310 Return]

Really?...



Seriously, if you think I've been "deeply personal and unpleasant" you need to rethink a few things. I've been blunt, yes, but frankly considering your arrogance and the manner in which you've stormed into this thread I consider it to be perfectly justified.



People disagree, passionate people disagree strongly to the point of arguing. Welcome to life, that's kind of how it works.

Yes really!

I'm interested that you felt the need to edit your original post (which I saw, by the way.) Would only be necessary if some home truths were hitting hard, I guess.

Please could you explain to me the way in which you said to a complete stranger that you encountered for the first time this evening "I'm aiming it squarely at you" isn't personal?

Finally for me (since I sense you're a "last word" type..) where does my "disagreeing to the point of arguing" and "passion" - become permissible for you - but for me its "arrogance."

If I have been arrogant on this thread - I apologise unreservedly. That was never my intention. Frustrated - yes - I thought this place was a venue for an exchange of views. My goodness how wrong was I? I clearly am on the wrong forum - though as I leave - I would like to *humbly* state...I feel somewhat vindicated in my comments.

 

[PMN]

Yes really!

I'm interested that you felt the need to edit your original post (which I saw, by the way.) Would only be necessary if some home truths were hitting hard, I guess.

Considering I edited it to make my point even more strongly I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Anyway, I'm bored of this nonsense now. Good luck finding a forum you like, it'll probably only have one member.

 

[simon ess]

I'm very happy for you that you feel vindicated Joe.

Now would really be a good time to leave, as you've identified.

It's a shame you feel the way you do. I'm glad though that you've aired your views and I, for one, will certainly take them into consideration.

Goodbye and good luck.

 

[Cobra]

Considering I edited it to make my point even more strongly I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Just for the record, having just read back through Paul's edits,
I will confirm that its what the edits contain.

Now, we seem to have lost our way a little here guys it was an
interesting (notwithsatnding the fact that its a very emotive) thread.

It would be good to get back to the original point(s)
Thanks

 

[StephenM]

So - to elevate user's confidence in posting new critiques and knowing that the people who are going to answer their thread,
(1) isn't in a bad mood and running down other's work because of some personal reason/issue
(2) has posted critique themselves and is ACTIVELY participating (because they earned points from creating their own critique thread or has earned bonus points for people liking that critique thread - and not necessary commenting) - just telling people what they are or are not doing right, is not actively participating - this is photography - you can't participate if you dont take photos! Seems pointless to me otherwise..

I'm sorry, but I don't see this. Why does posting my images for critique give people confidence that I won't be in a bad mood when I critique someone else's work? The euphoria I felt at posting my latest masterpiece for universal acclaim might just result in my being in a bad mood when I find it universally panned. Perhaps I'd be in a better mood if I hadn't been savaged over my efforts

Why does posting a photo (that might have taken only a few moments to make) count as more active participation than spending 20 minutes or more considering an image before writing a critique on it?

Why the assumption that if you don't post a critique thread then you don't take photos? And even if you don't, why should this mean that your comments should remain unsaid - as I said before, opinions should be judged on their own merits, not on the standing of the person making them. Otherwise, it isn't a rational critique, it's a subservience to authority.

The issue I see, is that those who constantly critique other's work, seldom post their own (if at all), for critique for the rest of us.

If your suggestion were to be implemented, and if the above statement is correct - that most who offer critique don't post images - then surely this would, at a stroke, remove all posts from those who "constantly critique other's work" and where would that leave critique threads?

As far as I can see, your level playing field is a field that only people who want critique can play on; and those who (for whatever reason) don't submit images for critique can't. It's a big assumption that people who don't ask for critique are unable to create a good photograph, and an even bigger one that if you can't create a good photograph you can't spot problems with others. I couldn't build a wall, but I can certainly recognise a badly built one (well, with certain faults - not all faults are visible).

 

[Pookeyhead]

Similarly - the crits I see all to frequently on this forum seem to assume that the pictures posted have been presented as potential national award winning images - which are subsequently shot down in flames by folks in, what sometimes appears to be a deeply unpleasant manner.

I'm sorry, but no one in this thread would tear into a novice's image as if we were expecting award winning images... no one. The debate is about what people see value in, and therefore how they give crit. What the photo is saying, what it's about, and why it was taken in the first place is every bit as important as how it was taken. Just because that in itself was debated at a fairly high level doesn't mean those of us in this thread would behave anything other than at an appropriate level in a crit thread. Perhaps you should search out some feedback and crit from the protagonists (or antagonists as you no doubt feel) of this thread before you start accusing people of lacking good will in the entire forum. How can you possibly judge an entire internet forum from the debate in one thread?

I'd be interested to read the critique you've received that makes you feel you can't show your images in here. Most of what we're discussing in here is the way crit in here is often mindlessly positive in nature, and far from how you describe it. This is what's promoted the debate in the first place - the fact that it needs balance, needs to be accurate, but supportive.

PS
Pookey
Loved your Fylde shots as I had to keep going back to them to look again. For me if you keep going back to look again then they are worth calling art.

Much as David and I don't always see eye to eye - as we've amply demonstrated here - I'd second that comment, they are indeed a really nice set

Cheers!

 

[The23rdman]

Not even remotely!

It is the honest and earnest viewpoint of a legitimate poster. Apparently - and I believe because I'm not one of the "in" crowd here - my views and I are clearly not welcome! They are nevertheless my views and there is nothing I have seen - most especially your most delightful directness - which could ever convince me that any word (which I typed thoughtfully and carefully) was inaccurate or incorrect!

I didn't wish to overplay the vulnerability element - since I'm pretty robust and not so bothered - nevertheless - the word that I used has been picked up on and that has become the characterisation associated with me as a poster on this thread. You must be very proud, therefore, that someone who is being characterised thus is someone you spoke to in such a delightful manner!!

You don't know the first thing about me - but because I have views that differ with you - you have gone out of your way to be deeply personal and unpleasant!

I have been asked to draw specific attention to examples of the kind of issue I mean. If anyone is looking for the kind of attitude that I am referring to (though to be fair I have never seen this poster before) please see immediately below.



Could anyone explain to me where phraseology such as this sits in the context of "the friendliest" photography forum on the internet?

I am, nevertheless, deeply grateful for your most helpful illustration of the very point I was trying to make from the outset!!

To the gentleman who very reasonably suggested this isn't the place for me - patently that is true - and I thank you for your courtesy and reasonable manner!!

Why are you even having this conversation? If you don't like the place just leave. I'm not sure what you are attempting to achieve by sitting in judgement of an entire forum based on your personal interpretation of a single debate and what seems to be a bit of a persecution issue.

 

[big soft moose]

Why are you even having this conversation? .

gives him something to while sat on the toilet to take his mind off the fact that there's no paper

 

[The23rdman]

gives him something to while sat on the toilet to take his mind off the fact that there's no paper

That's where I post my most insightful stuff. I find it focusses the mind.

 

[MWHCVT]

I've come to the conclusion that its actually impossible to have a level playing field when it comes to critique how can you when your dealing with people of all abilities...

The sad conclusion I've come to is that it's virtually impossible to reach a situation where a thread starter can realistically expect to receive decent, honest, considered critique be that on technicalities or the content and the story it tells as long as you've got people posting inane drivel that frankly has nothing within its content to actually prove helpful to an OP in the pursuit of photographic improve...there are some posters on this forum who post in scores of photo threads a week, but out of hundreds if not thousands of posts you will struggle to find anything that could be considered critique from them...this makes me very sad, as I find it laughable that members can have spend this much time around a photo forum but they will then say they don't have the experience to offer critique..

I'd go as far as to say there are some individuals that pathologically avoid negativity in order to add react likes and adoration from others in the form of likes... not really sure that's a positive for the critique sections....

So this is my conclusion...I'll continue to offer critique as I see fit where I can as often as I can but until something is done to actually combat those that are IMO damaging the quality of the feedback sections of the community I'm not sure we will ever see a dramatic change to the situation

 

[TheBigYin]

Top and bottom of it Matt, is that ultimately people will do what they will... all we can control is what WE do, so if we are committed to there being some decent critique on here, we all just have to keep going - as the old saying goes "If your not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"

I'll admit I don't spend as much time giving critique as I should, and it's partly due to worries that some people may actually think I'm using the green-team name badge as a way of "getting away with" being over harsh - but I'm afraid i'm a fairly typical bluff northern bloke, and unafraid to call a spade a bloody shovel. I also wish I was as well versed in the arts as some of the persons in this thread, as many times my reaction to a photo and my critique of it is NOT based particularly on the technical merits or difficulties - but because of a largely sciences / technical based education I often don't have the "artistic vocabulary" to put those feelings into the same clear expression as, for example David does. So, often-times my critique will be of a more technical nature, there have been a number of occasions when i've actually torn the technical side of a photo to bits, only to then state that I liked the actual image despite it's shortcomings, and would love to see the result of a re-shoot with the "easy bit" (the technical stuff) put right...

 

[MWHCVT]

Top and bottom of it Matt, is that ultimately people will do what they will... all we can control is what WE do, so if we are committed to there being some decent critique on here, we all just have to keep going - as the old saying goes "If your not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"

I'll admit I don't spend as much time giving critique as I should, and it's partly due to worries that some people may actually think I'm using the green-team name badge as a way of "getting away with" being over harsh - but I'm afraid i'm a fairly typical bluff northern bloke, and unafraid to call a spade a bloody shovel. I also wish I was as well versed in the arts as some of the persons in this thread, as many times my reaction to a photo and my critique of it is NOT based particularly on the technical merits or difficulties - but because of a largely sciences / technical based education I often don't have the "artistic vocabulary" to put those feelings into the same clear expression as, for example David does. So, often-times my critique will be of a more technical nature, there have been a number of occasions when i've actually torn the technical side of a photo to bits, only to then state that I liked the actual image despite it's shortcomings, and would love to see the result of a re-shoot with the "easy bit" (the technical stuff) put right...

To be honest Mark your right about the "if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem" which is why I'm still going to do what I can where I can...I'm very similar to yourself in that I'm not all that up on many different artists, I tend to come from a in know what I like, I know what I don't like, and I comment from there

Anyone that thinks your comments are somehow harsher and your doing it behind the protection of a staff badge would be a bit of fool but no doubt it does happen, thankfully most people know that doesn't happen round here...

 

[Byker28i]

T.I'm very similar to yourself in that I'm not all that up on many different artists, I tend to come from a in know what I like, I know what I don't like, and I comment from there

Which is fine, provided you quantify it? So just saying I like that isn't as good as I like that because

However, I still maintain that the reference to other artists work, or perhaps deeper thoughts about the meaning or possibly symbology also has worth and its place in critique. It may well involve some deeper thinking, might not be what the creator wants, or was thinking of as critique, but photography sits in the art stable and as such has to bear the saddle of arty comments occaisionaly.

 

[MWHCVT]

Which is fine, provided you quantify it? So just saying I like that isn't as good as I like that because

However, I still maintain that the reference to other artists work, or perhaps deeper thoughts about the meaning or possibly symbology also has worth and its place in critique. It may well involve some deeper thinking, might not be what the creator wants, or was thinking of as critique, but photography sits in the art stable and as such has to bear the saddle of arty comments occaisionaly.

I don't think I've ever said I don't like a photo and not said why...this is because while I've no desire to upset people I also don't need to be sickening nice in order to garner online friends, not that I havn't made some great friends on this forum...I'm not going to normally reference artists as its not now I really work and truth betold I remember the image more often than I remember then name of the artist, I do quite often when I feel so moved talk about what the image says to me but again that's not a regular thing as its not really my normal thought process

 

[TheBigYin]

Which is fine, provided you quantify it? So just saying I like that isn't as good as I like that because

However, I still maintain that the reference to other artists work, or perhaps deeper thoughts about the meaning or possibly symbology also has worth and its place in critique. It may well involve some deeper thinking, might not be what the creator wants, or was thinking of as critique, but photography sits in the art stable and as such has to bear the saddle of arty comments occaisionaly.

I agree 100%, just wish I was better aquainted with more artistic styles - the one bit that I did get rather immersed with was a fantastic learning exercise for me, and has meant at least with one particular style of work ("old master" inspired still life) I do feel at least partly qualified to pass comment on more than just the technical aspects.

 

[Byker28i]

It's one of the biggest steps I've taken on the OCA course. Study visits with other students and tutors at times gives a whole new meaning into areas I would never have considered. Geoff Dyer, the ongoing moment, traces commonalities through the history of american p[hotography. Amazing how many subjects or themes appear again and again.

 

[big soft moose]

So this is my conclusion...I'll continue to offer critique as I see fit where I can as often as I can but until something is done to actually combat those that are IMO damaging the quality of the feedback sections of the community I'm not sure we will ever see a dramatic change to the situation

To be fair to mark and the green collective generally , while I agree that "nice shot" is not critique (as equally "that's crap" is not either) I can't ever see a situation where they would be able to police 'nice shot' comments without incurring lots of complaints and hassle.

Since the board changed and what was "feedback and critique" is now "photo genres" its hard to blame people for not offering proper crit on every thread - my suggestion to deal with that would be to promote the critique prefix more heavily and rather than having a "everything is up for crit unless other wise stated" have "If you want crit, ask for it by using this prefix" as the ground rule.

With that in place you could then also have a rule that says on threads with the crit prefix, if you are going to comment you must offer proper crit , not a two word comment - which due to the smaller number of threads would be easier for mods to enforce.

This would also remove the issue with people who didn't want crit but only wanted smoke blown up their fundament , as they presumably wouldn't use the crit prefix.

Until/unless that happens though I'm just going to concentrate on my own circle of influence , and give critique to the best of my ability where it is clear that it is being sought and welcomed.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I'd go as far as to say there are some individuals that pathologically avoid negativity in order to add react likes and adoration from others in the form of likes... not really sure that's a positive for the critique sections....

That winds me up. There's one in particular.. fairly easy to establish who if you use the forum facilities. It's not crit, it's abusing a pointless system. I think we get rid of the "likes" feature entirely, as it becomes competitive and subject to abuse. It wasn't until the other week I even looked at there, and was amazed I had the most likes. In a way it was nice to see that even though most think I'm a complete ****, people still value what I say, but it's also apparent that others just post niceties in order to boost their own "likes". I hugely dislike the "like" thing in social media, and I dislike it as much in here. I for one would be happy if we didn't have it.

 

[The23rdman]

I'd do away with the 'like' feature in a heartbeat.

 

[Bythesea]

I did think about liking David's comment, then thought better of it

 

[DerekL]

I did think about liking David's comment, then thought better of it

Funny you say that...

 

[kendo1]