A royal kick in the 'togs.

I would echo CT'S comments and seek clarification about what level of kit they expect/why they knocked back the 350D, as James mentioned it could be down to them needing reliability and good low light capability
 
Grendel said:
Right, I've cleaned up the last few posts. Enough squabbling now thanks.

Back on topic please :suspect:
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Apologies, I've now utilised various forum functions to make my experience more pleasant.

Jack, I really don't think it's that important to have the top kit, and certainly I've never had an agency tell me so. I'm quite surprised that this is their attitude really.

Did they give you/did you ask for a reason? If not, then I think that it would be the best course of action for you, communication is the key here...if you can assauge their fears that 350D = less capable = amateur wannabee or whatever, then I think you'd be much better off. It also shows your commitment to the cause far more than if you wave a 1D in their face.

Anyone can buy kit but to be able to use it and get results, and for an individual to justify their choices when questioned are far more important assets in my book. Call them, ask for a reason, and explain your reasoning. You might be surprised at their response. The very fact you ring back shows you're not ringing every company you can find chancing it. They might just have given you the brush off as you were the 100th person that day with a 350D to send in a folio and the other 99 "always wanted to be a sports tog...so can I have a job"

In addition, with no disrespect meant, I wouldn't class this as "a royal kick in the 'togs". Approaching agencies and getting knocked back is part and parcel of trying to be a sports photographer.
 
jamesb84 said:
Apologies, I've now utilised various forum functions to make my experience more pleasant.

Jack, I really don't think it's that important to have the top kit, and certainly I've never had an agency tell me so. I'm quite surprised that this is their attitude really.

Did they give you/did you ask for a reason? If not, then I think that it would be the best course of action for you, communication is the key here...if you can assauge their fears that 350D = less capable = amateur wannabee or whatever, then I think you'd be much better off. It also shows your commitment to the cause far more than if you wave a 1D in their face.

Anyone can buy kit but to be able to use it and get results, and for an individual to justify their choices when questioned are far more important assets in my book. Call them, ask for a reason, and explain your reasoning. You might be surprised at their response. The very fact you ring back shows you're not ringing every company you can find chancing it. They might just have given you the brush off as you were the 100th person that day with a 350D to send in a folio and the other 99 "always wanted to be a sports tog...so can I have a job"

In addition, with no disrespect meant, I wouldn't class this as "a royal kick in the 'togs". Approaching agencies and getting knocked back is part and parcel of trying to be a sports photographer.
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The reason I consider it to be a kick in the togs in my case is that i was so close to securing it - it was all sealed and done that I had the spot.

I sent an email regarding the kit and this is the response I got:

(Snipped out of good will)

at this present moment the 350d is just not fast enough for our line of work...when you start to push it into doing what we do at a race, it just isn't quick enough, either in the shot rate, or the buffer...means that you are missing hundreds of people at a time.
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JackMcIntyre said:
The reason I consider it to be a kick in the togs in my case is that i was so close to securing it - it was all sealed and done that I had the spot.

I sent an email regarding the kit and this is the response I got:

(Snipped out of good will)
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Hmmm...seems like this is a lot further down the track (sorry - pardon the pun :nuts: ) than I realised.

Would I be right in assuming that they want shots of as many people as possible crossing the finish line (for example) and they feel that your 350D would not be able to cope with the numbers of people at a big finish?

I'm not sure I see that as being particularly true...maybe I'm under-anticipating the numbers at massed finishes...but when I've shot the Bristol and Bath Half's I've always been able to capture people with near enough a single shot. Certainly it's not taxing for any dSLR - even the 350D.

That said, if you're only going to get this gig with a "better" camera then perhaps this should be the kick you need. I upgraded to a 1D because I wanted the increased fps at football, shift the 30D to second body and retire the 350D as the ISO wasn't great at 800 or 1600.

Regarding the "kick in the togs bit"...i've had that happen before, everything works out great in the negotiation or build-up, but right at the last minute it goes wrong. It's gutting, but you either work round it or find something elsewhere!
 
jamesb84 said:
Hmmm...seems like this is a lot further down the track (sorry - pardon the pun :nuts: ) than I realised.

Would I be right in assuming that they want shots of as many people as possible crossing the finish line (for example) and they feel that your 350D would not be able to cope with the numbers of people at a big finish?

I'm not sure I see that as being particularly true...maybe I'm under-anticipating the numbers at massed finishes...but when I've shot the Bristol and Bath Half's I've always been able to capture people with near enough a single shot. Certainly it's not taxing for any dSLR - even the 350D.

That said, if you're only going to get this gig with a "better" camera then perhaps this should be the kick you need. I upgraded to a 1D because I wanted the increased fps at football, shift the 30D to second body and retire the 350D as the ISO wasn't great at 800 or 1600.

Regarding the "kick in the togs bit"...i've had that happen before, everything works out great in the negotiation or build-up, but right at the last minute it goes wrong. It's gutting, but you either work round it or find something elsewhere!
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Yeah I've been shot down a lot in the past over a lot of things (females as well!) so I guess this didn't come as much of a suprise.

I think this is going to be the push for me to finally upgrade this body. I feel like its been holding me back for a long time and while the results I'm expecting with a good body are what I make them - I'm really excited to get a good quality and high ISO performance boost.

So far its 40d vs 50d vs 5d.
 
JackMcIntyre said:
Yeah I've been shot down a lot in the past over a lot of things (females as well!) so I guess this didn't come as much of a suprise.

I think this is going to be the push for me to finally upgrade this body. I feel like its been holding me back for a long time and while the results I'm expecting with a good body are what I make them - I'm really excited to get a good quality and high ISO performance boost.

So far its 40d vs 50d vs 5d.
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I would go against the 5D...if they're after a fast fps, then the 5D is roughly the same as the 350D so pointless for your agency.

I'd go for the 40D...it's a good body and technology OK with it, it's not as advanced as the 50D but it's cheaper...remember if you're making a living out of this then money spent on gear is money not spent on food/rent/mortgage (in the future)
 
jamesb84 said:
I would go against the 5D...if they're after a fast fps, then the 5D is roughly the same as the 350D so pointless for your agency.

I'd go for the 40D...it's a good body and technology OK with it, it's not as advanced as the 50D but it's cheaper...remember if you're making a living out of this then money spent on gear is money not spent on food/rent/mortgage (in the future)
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I think if I was buying a body soley for the purpose of this agency treating it as my full time job (which it won't be) I'd definately go for the 40d or possibly a 1dX but this will be my all around body that will be doing portrait, weddings, landscape <-- the one i enjoy the most.

That's why I'm considering the 5d the more I think about it. :nuts:
 
what about a 40d now and a 5d in a few months, it is always nice to have spares and 2 capable bodies will work well as a team (my 1d and 5d)
 
D700 + grip = full frame goodness, 8 frames per second & and that Nikon loveliness :D

Seriously though, if it's the gear that's holding you back then and you are serious about getting into paid work then there's little option but to upgrade to the best you can financially justify. Look it at as a business decision and follow your head not your heart. If you make a bit of money off a 40d/50d then a little down the line you could sell that body and upgrade (or jump ship to Nikon :lol:).
 
TriggerHappy said:
D700 + grip = full frame goodness, 8 frames per second & and that Nikon loveliness :D

Seriously though, if it's the gear that's holding you back then and you are serious about getting into paid work then there's little option but to upgrade to the best you can financially justify. Look it at as a business decision and follow your head not your heart. If you make a bit of money off a 40d/50d then a little down the line you could sell that body and upgrade (or jump ship to Nikon :lol:).
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I'm very brand impartial - so if I didn't have my 70-200 F4 I probably would be considering Nikking over to the other side. ;)

I think 50d is going to be the best blend of what I want.
 
I'd give some thought to a 1D mkII. They go for very little money now compared to even a few months ago. They are bombproof and there's no getting away from the fact that many, many 'togs have used them successfully in the field you are getting into.
The camera's waterproofing is handy but be aware that your 70-200 isn't.
 
I'd say go with a 1D mark II as well.

Oh wait...
 
trencheel303 said:
Oh wait...
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:lol:




Jack, keep at it... you'll get there eventually. For what its worth ive got a 50D and its a more then capable camera... still doesn't stop me wanting a 5D2 though!
 
paul_g said:
I know its from a dealer but thats pricey. There are two on the forum at £550
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Knew I should have shopped around before posting! At that price I could be tempted to go with a dual Nikon & Canon system!
 
paul_g said:
I know its from a dealer but thats pricey. There are two on the forum at £550
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I dunno. It's not that bad. They're a well respected dealer, Park Cameras, they've tested it and will give you a three month warranty. Would have been nicer if they'd serviced it too, but you can't have everything.

Fffordes have one a £899.

Mifsuds have one also at £699
 
POAH said:
Did you actually ask them why they poo poo'd the 350D?
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Yeah sorry I kind of hid the reply away in a post:

at this present moment the 350d is just not fast enough for our line of work...when you start to push it into doing what we do at a race, it just isn't quick enough, either in the shot rate, or the buffer...means that you are missing hundreds of people at a time.
Click to expand...
 
I wouldnt worry about it too much - unless you really want to be a human Gatso.

They will be paying you chicken feed and want you to spend extra money to get that chicken feed - seriously go find yourself a non-photography part time job and save the photography for something creative.

This type of "event photography" will crush the will to live out of you.

They are asking for you to put 5000 odd clicks onto your equipment and for you to drive that equipment and probably paying less than they would have to to hire just the equipment without an operator - this is pure exploitation and it won't forward your photographic career (if thats what you want) or even be fun!
 
desantnik said:
I wouldnt worry about it too much - unless you really want to be a human Gatso.

They will be paying you chicken feed and want you to spend extra money to get that chicken feed - seriously go find yourself a non-photography part time job and save the photography for something creative.

This type of "event photography" will crush the will to live out of you.

They are asking for you to put 5000 odd clicks onto your equipment and for you to drive that equipment and probably paying less than they would have to to hire just the equipment without an operator - this is pure exploitation and it won't forward your photographic career (if thats what you want) or even be fun!
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The pay is actually quite good and travel is covered - I'd get the money back on a new body (which frankly i'm dying for anyway) in 3-4 shooting days which is no bad timescale in my opinion.

onikami said:
Do you have any links to your marathon pics?
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Here's the first 3 I took at the Redcar Half Marathon:

4727184742_5eb244684a.jpg


4726539365_4a988d1a2b.jpg


4726539277_ff89c940f7.jpg
 
Sorry guys, but this is how it works in the 'Real World' - you know, the one where people need to decide if you're a serious player or not.

Once you've got the gig, you can use whatever equipment suits the job.

Many PicEds use equipment as a rough guide to a person's committment to his trade, just as we judge other job applicants by their clothes, the quality of the writing on their CV etc etc etc.

If you're using a brace of D3's and a slew of 2.8's then you're obviously committed to the craft - or you appear to be.

All other things being equal, I'd hire the man or woman who has all the gear and all the ideas...

See hacker's recent wedding-shoot - if he'd attempted to do that wedding with anything less than he currently owned, he wouldn't have completed the job.

Pro kit, regardless of who makes it, will enable you to do the job whatever the situation or conditions on the day.
That's why we buy it. It's got nothing to do with bloody IQ at the end of the day - it's about guaranteeing you get the images no matter what.
 
Only scan read through the thread, so sorry if this has been covered but I would seriously consider keeping hold of the 350 if you do upgrade. It would only sell for peanuts second hand and tbh if yours is anything like mine is a brilliant backup. My 350 can equal my 40D in performance any day. It seems you have your sights set higher than a 40/50D now which I think is a good thing as I think though the 40D has the extra speed and other handy bits and bobs in terms of image quality it is no different to the 350......also seems no less waterproof, in fact having had them both in the same rain storms before the 40D started playing up and the 350 just carried on shooting away.

I know all that is a bit irrelevant now as the conversation has moved on, but just my 2p :p
 
Thing is Jack is that there is a big difference between going along and taking photos for fun, being creative, moving around and coming back with a dozen shots for your portfolio and what these guys want from you - stuck in one place, shoot as many different people as you can just making sure that the number is visible. They'll also want the things to be low res, small files.

Seriously, this is human Gatso territory and requires b****r all skill to be frank.

Your shots are great, no problem, but thats not what they want - the quality does not matter, they just want a recognisable image. They'll use and try to sell them all.

Up to you, but this really is the gutter of photography IMHO.

You might think "but at least its photography", the danger is is that it will put you off of photography!

BTW Canon bodies are from 50 to 100 quid and your 70-200 is about 30 quid plus insurance (10%) and VAT from Fixation per day, take that off what they are paying you and see what they are actually paying you for doing it.
 
desantnik said:
Thing is Jack is that there is a big difference between going along and taking photos for fun, being creative, moving around and coming back with a dozen shots for your portfolio and what these guys want from you - stuck in one place, shoot as many different people as you can just making sure that the number is visible. They'll also want the things to be low res, small files.

Seriously, this is human Gatso territory and requires b****r all skill to be frank.

Your shots are great, no problem, but thats not what they want - the quality does not matter, they just want a recognisable image. They'll use and try to sell them all.

Up to you, but this really is the gutter of photography IMHO.

You might think "but at least its photography", the danger is is that it will put you off of photography!

BTW Canon bodies are from 50 to 100 quid and your 70-200 is about 30 quid plus insurance (10%) and VAT from Fixation per day, take that off what they are paying you and see what they are actually paying you for doing it.
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Surely gutter photography is "papping" well more than marathon photography anyway. Also one mans gutter is another mans gourmet dining table.

He says the pay is good enough so not knowing his circumstances we have to go by that.

It also may be a useful stepping stone for him in the future.

As said previously though an employer can set the conditions he wants so if better kit is stated and he wants the job then better kit is what he neeeds.
 
What I want most from this is experience. Though obviously I don't want to make a net loss.

Its something im comfortable shooting - compared to my first 'tog job being a wedding or something out of my comfort zone.
 
desantnik said:
BTW Canon bodies are from 50 to 100 quid and your 70-200 is about 30 quid plus insurance (10%) and VAT from Fixation per day, take that off what they are paying you and see what they are actually paying you for doing it.
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Good post. Good point.

Hiring might be an option if capital is in short supply, BTW.
 
desantnik said:
Seriously, this is human Gatso territory and requires b****r all skill to be frank.
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thats it ya see :) Everyones argument seems to be the OP can take good pics so... However as pointed out.. I doubt the company are interested in good pics.. they are interested in you attending a marathon with thousands upon thousands of runners. (not your local village type event with 50 runners). standing in the same spot and capturing every single one that passes... click click all day.. mind numbing.. thousands of exactly the same picture
 
Arkady said:
Sorry guys, but this is how it works in the 'Real World' - you know, the one where people need to decide if you're a serious player or not.

Once you've got the gig, you can use whatever equipment suits the job.

Many PicEds use equipment as a rough guide to a person's committment to his trade, just as we judge other job applicants by their clothes, the quality of the writing on their CV etc etc etc.

If you're using a brace of D3's and a slew of 2.8's then you're obviously committed to the craft - or you appear to be.

All other things being equal, I'd hire the man or woman who has all the gear and all the ideas...

See hacker's recent wedding-shoot - if he'd attempted to do that wedding with anything less than he currently owned, he wouldn't have completed the job.

Pro kit, regardless of who makes it, will enable you to do the job whatever the situation or conditions on the day.
That's why we buy it. It's got nothing to do with bloody IQ at the end of the day - it's about guaranteeing you get the images no matter what.
Click to expand...

I agree with you to a point, if one were shooting in harsh conditions where dust is an issue (ie. you) or in dungeon football stadiums where f/2.8 and ISO6400 are the issues (ie. me) then i'd agree that your slew of fast glass and weather-sealed bodies are vital.

However, if we're talking about good light (daylight) and easy (comparatively) conditions...then I don't necessarily feel that it's that necessary. The pic editor that got me to upgrade told me that my shots were excellent, and I was very much at the limitations of my equipment...that prompted an upgrade from me, and when necessary.

I don't really feel that the "human gatso" photography that seems to be being mentioned here warrants either fast glass or a 1D. It's simples...

As you say, this is the real world...so if thats how it has to work, then so be it...but if it were me I'd be considering very carefully whether I want to upgrade just for this job. Pro's and Cons' here...
 
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