Action pics, more luck than judgement?

Yes there's luck involved but for my situation I can reduce the amount it influences what I get - I shoot a particular team and there are lots of things I do/know (without conscious thought nowadays) to tip the odds in my favour because I want action that matters to my clients (paper and the club) not just standard agency action. My advantage is I know the football club, players and fans and how they behave and work to get shots which show that.

If I'm doing matches not involving that team I could get away with a heap of nice action stuff but I try to do more because two guys heading a ball or a goal celly is often not the story of the match - and there's nearly always a story that matters to the people you are shooting for.
 
davidy233 said:
Yes there's luck involved but for my situation I can reduce the amount it influences what I get - I shoot a particular team and there are lots of things I do/know (without conscious thought nowadays) to tip the odds in my favour because I want action that matters to my clients (paper and the club) not just standard agency action. My advantage is I know the football club, players and fans and how they behave and work to get shots which show that.

If I'm doing matches not involving that team I could get away with a heap of nice action stuff but I try to do more because two guys heading a ball or a goal celly is often not the story of the match - and there's nearly always a story that matters to the people you are shooting for.
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So wheres the "luck"
 
Gary Coyle said:
So wheres the "luck"
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Because you still don't know for 100% what they are going to do, if they'll miss the ball, if the strike will go in, which direction they'll run for a cele. The best you can do is make educated guesses, the more experience/knowledge the better the guess.
 
What's the problem, a mate of mine told me you just switch the camera on AUTO then select sequence, hold your finger on the button, take as many as you can and you will have a great photo!

Its that easy he said....lol
 
Toggerman said:
Because you still don't know for 100% what they are going to do, if they'll miss the ball, if the strike will go in, which direction they'll run for a cele. The best you can do is make educated guesses, the more experience/knowledge the better the guess.
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Exactly, so luck plays no part at all, you have put yourself in the position your experience suggests will get the best results, if they miss the ball theres no shot to be captured, if they strike it and it goes in then youre there to capture it, if you dont thats because you werent concentrating or were yapping to the tog next to you
 
arthurbikemad said:
What's the problem, a mate of mine told me you just switch the camera on AUTO then select sequence, hold your finger on the button, take as many as you can and you will have a great photo!

Its that easy he said....lol
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Not quite as easy as that might sugggest, especially if youve placed yourself 110 metres away at the other end of the field
 
Gary Coyle said:
Exactly, so luck plays no part at all, you have put yourself in the position your experience suggests will get the best results, if they miss the ball theres no shot to be captured, if they strike it and it goes in then youre there to capture it, if you dont thats because you werent concentrating or were yapping to the tog next to you
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Luck is what happens on the pitch. What you do is entirely in your control, no one has said otherwise, we're not talking about luck of what you do and how you take the shot or whether you missed it due to your own actions, but luck of what happens in front of you in order to create the shot. For example going in for a head, up to a certain point you don't know if they will connect or miss, if there's going to be a shot or not, that is the chance/luck as up to that point it can go either way and there's nothing you can do to influence the outcome. If there is a shot you do the best you can to capture it, if there isn't you move on to the next one.

Sure you can just snap away at anything and everything, there's always a shot whether it be on players faces or backs, with or without a ball and so on.
 
Gary Coyle said:
, if they strike it and it goes in then youre there to capture it, if you dont thats because you werent concentrating or were yapping to the tog next to you
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Only people who are sure to get every goal are those who shoot from up high in the stand or those (many) who swap frames with other photographers to cover their backside when they miss one - or maybe there aren't defenders who sometimes block you down South
 
Toggerman said:
Luck is what happens on the pitch. What you do is entirely in your control, no one has said otherwise, we're not talking about luck of what you do and how you take the shot or whether you missed it due to your own actions, but luck of what happens in front of you in order to create the shot. For example going in for a head, up to a certain point you don't know if they will connect or miss, if there's going to be a shot or not, that is the chance/luck as up to that point it can go either way and there's nothing you can do to influence the outcome. If there is a shot you do the best you can to capture it, if there isn't you move on to the next one.

Sure you can just snap away at anything and everything, there's always a shot whether it be on players faces or backs, with or without a ball and so on.
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Everything happens for a reason and its not luck, like a rugby ball bouncing crazily all over the field in any and every direction, it bounces in a particular direction because of how its just landed and luck has zero to do with it, not that luck even exists, luck is a sort of superstition, its not something real and tangible which can be measured and thats because it doesnt exist.
 
Gary Coyle said:
Everything happens for a reason and its not luck, like a rugby ball bouncing crazily all over the field in any and every direction, it bounces in a particular direction because of how its just landed and luck has zero to do with it, not that luck even exists, luck is a sort of superstition, its not something real and tangible which can be measured and thats because it doesnt exist.
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That sounds like a very religious answer and that's absolutely fair enough if that's what you believe in.

Chance and 'luck' are very similar and there are entire fields dedicated to the study of it in chemistry, physics, mathematics and psychology just to name a few.

If you can predict everything that's going to happen in the future with 100% certainty then you must be very rich, the amount you must win from sporting bets must be ridiculous. Not to mention being a world class photographer as you always know what's going to happen and when. If you don't know what's going to happen, then why not?
 
Kodiak Qc said:
•
After mastering technique, gear, and after acquiring enough experience, one has
just started to explore the last element of the sport shooting equation: luck!

LUCK IS EVERYTHING!

With all the pre cited prerequisites on hand, one still does not control the action to
come in a place, a time, an event.

If one could control being at a right angle to an interesting action happening at the
right time and in the right conditions, this one would not need luck and would be the
best and only photographer on that given location. You can think, deduct the rest…

LUCK IS EVERYTHING! …that give a chance, like a lotto ticket, to any/everyone!
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One can't help but read your posts in my head with the voice of David Attenborough. o_O


There's right time and right place scenario's, then knowing the time to be there and knowing where to be for it. Your mate sound like he is jealous lol
 
Toggerman said:
That sounds like a very religious answer and that's absolutely fair enough if that's what you believe in.

Chance and 'luck' are very similar and there are entire fields dedicated to the study of it in chemistry, physics, mathematics and psychology just to name a few.

If you can predict everything that's going to happen in the future with 100% certainty then you must be very rich, the amount you must win from sporting bets must be ridiculous. Not to mention being a world class photographer as you always know what's going to happen and when. If you don't know what's going to happen, then why not?
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Its not religious, its fact, Luck doesnt exist or cant be explained by some other reason

Steve has it right above, when preparation meets opportunity, you just need to make sure you take that opportunity when it arises

I cant predict Jacks***, and nor do i gamble, i just use my experience to place myself in what i think will be the position which might offer me the best opportunity to capture what i want to capture, if i fail to take that opportunity then thats my fault
 
Bazza said:
One can't help but read your posts in my head with the voice of David Attenborough.
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•
Brian, this is a great compliment!
When my sons were boys, they and I loved to watch almost everyday a Nature
episode narrated by tDavid Attenborough. I discovered the cool flavour of this
language, that I hated deeply all my school years long, through these documentations.
He became somehow my standard, my reference in english communication. TY!
 
Gary Coyle said:
Its not religious, its fact, Luck doesnt exist or cant be explained by some other reason
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It really isn't fact. Chance exists in everything, it is simply a word used to describe events occurring beyond your knowledge or control. What some people call luck is just chance with a fortuitous (or bad) outcome, but luck is still a subject of chance. Whilst it is true to a certain degree that things will happen in set ways (at least in the physical world), the amount of variables that can have an effect on the outcome are astronomical and make it hard to predict, look at Chaos Theory or Probability Theory for example.

Non physical things are harder to predict, Random Number Generators, or the thought process of a person/animal.

Gary Coyle said:
Steve has it right above, when preparation meets opportunity, you just need to make sure you take that opportunity when it arises

I cant predict Jacks***, and nor do i gamble, i just use my experience to place myself in what i think will be the position which might offer me the best opportunity to capture what i want to capture, if i fail to take that opportunity then thats my fault
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But opportunity is something arising beyond your direct control, hence subject to chance.

No one has argued about using knowledge to get to the best possible position, that is the best thing we can do. But what happens in front of you is out of your scope of control, is a subject to chance from your point of view.
 
Show me any photo taken on a sports field you put down to luck and ill show you how other factors (not luck) determined the capture of said photo.
 
Gary Coyle said:
Show me any photo taken on a sports field you put down to luck and ill show you how other factors (not luck) determined the capture of said photo.
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Actually that's probably true and answers the original poster nicely -

But your post earlier "Exactly, so luck plays no part at all, you have put yourself in the position your experience suggests will get the best results, if they miss the ball theres no shot to be captured, if they strike it and it goes in then youre there to capture it, if you dont thats because you werent concentrating or were yapping to the tog next to you" isn't at all true there are plenty of ways you might not be able to capture the goal - most obviously by a defender blocking your view
 
davidy233 said:
Actually that's probably true and answers the original poster nicely -

But your post earlier "Exactly, so luck plays no part at all, you have put yourself in the position your experience suggests will get the best results, if they miss the ball theres no shot to be captured, if they strike it and it goes in then youre there to capture it, if you dont thats because you werent concentrating or were yapping to the tog next to you" isn't at all true there are plenty of ways you might not be able to capture the goal - most obviously by a defender blocking your view
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I cant dispute what you say David other than to say by putting yourself there in the first place youre giving yourself the opportunity to capture the goal if and when scored, obviously you cant affect what a defender does or where he chooses to run, the quote from me was also based on the fact that a goal was scored and there were no external factors playing a part ie a defender coming across the scene, was meaning if the goal was scored and you had a clear view of it and you didn't capture it then thats down to you missing it or another external factor like your camera breaking, but if you capture it its because you were alert and ready to fire the shutter and already in the right place, luck has nothing to do with it
 
Gary Coyle said:
Show me any photo taken on a sports field you put down to luck and ill show you how other factors (not luck) determined the capture of said photo.
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I'm now starting to regret deleting the photos that I don't upload. I'll play along anyway even though I think I know what you're going to say.

So bear in mind that we are talking about chance, so things like "You chose that focal length" and "You chose that shutter speed" don't qualify as they are active choices made by the photographer. Explain how when the goal was scored that I knew I would capture this photo in this exact manner and none of the content is down to random chance.

 
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Gary Coyle said:
I cant dispute what you say David other than to say by putting yourself there in the first place youre giving yourself the opportunity to capture the goal if and when scored, obviously you cant affect what a defender does or where he chooses to run, the quote from me was also based on the fact that a goal was scored and there were no external factors playing a part ie a defender coming across the scene, was meaning if the goal was scored and you had a clear view of it and you didn't capture it then thats down to you missing it or another external factor like your camera breaking, but if you capture it its because you were alert and ready to fire the shutter and already in the right place, luck has nothing to do with it
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True that if you capture it the pic it has nothing to do with luck - but if you've done everything you can and then a defender runs in front of you and blocks your shot then is that not 'bad luck' :(
 
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An example of when things didn't go to plan was a few games ago the ball was in my keeper's possession. Everyone got into place right in front of me and I concentrated on the 2 players who were both the best jumpers on their respective team and who were covering each other, smack bang in front of me. Every kick so far had resulted in them both going in for a header. I framed and focussed on them and the experience had given me an idea of the shot I was going to get. The keeper moves forward, everyone gets ready, he rolls the ball to the ground and swings his kick, the ball bounces slightly to his right and he kicks it with the outside of his foot, sideways straight into a nearby opposing player who takes advantage of the open net and scores.

Yes I had swung around and got the goal instead (with a 200mm lens on a FF body from the halfway line, so not ideal but no time to change cameras), but it was not the outcome I was expecting or hoping for. Now I'm guessing that was my poor judgement for not knowing the ball was going to bounce to the side, even though that was contrary to what experience had taught me?
 
Gary Coyle said:
I cant dispute what you say David other than to say by putting yourself there in the first place youre giving yourself the opportunity to capture the goal if and when scored, obviously you cant affect what a defender does or where he chooses to run, the quote from me was also based on the fact that a goal was scored and there were no external factors playing a part ie a defender coming across the scene, was meaning if the goal was scored and you had a clear view of it and you didn't capture it then thats down to you missing it or another external factor like your camera breaking, but if you capture it its because you were alert and ready to fire the shutter and already in the right place, luck has nothing to do with it
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Sorry Gary, after reading that I am now fully convinced that you and I are talking about something completely different. I'm talking about chance/luck in the content of the photo, an opportunity arising to make a capture. I think you're talking about the photographer's own actions and choices in taking that capture?
 
Toggerman said:
I'm now starting to regret deleting the photos that I don't upload. I'll play along anyway even though I think I know what you're going to say.

So bear in mind that we are talking about chance, so things like "You chose that focal length" and "You chose that shutter speed" don't qualify as they are active choices made by the photographer. Explain how when the goal was scored that I knew I would capture this photo in this exact manner and none of the content is down to random chance.
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With regards to the attached photo, you chose to put yourself there, if you chose to put yourself the other end of the ground you wouldnt have got this photo, luck no, chance no, a consious decision you made, yes. and of course the things like focal lenght, aperture etc matter, you made those choices as well, if you would have made the choice to pick up your camera with the 600mm lens attached in stead of the one with the 70-200mm or whatever attached you wouldnt have got this photo.

As for explaining how you knew you would capture the photo in the exact manner you did, you cant, simply because you didnt know it was going to be scored, you cant have, youre not a mystic, however every decision you made leading up to this point put you in the best possible position to capture this photo, now of course you could have ended up with total rubbish if the goal scorer had made the decision not to go towards the stand and run in field to celebrate instead, chance no, luck no, a consious decision made my the goalscorer
 
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Gary Coyle said:
if the goal scorer had made the decision not to go towards the stand and run in field to celebrate instead, chance no, luck no, a consious decision made my the goalscorer
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But from my frame of reference and having no control over the decision the scorer made, that is the very definition of chance, the probability of him running in any given direction was equal to everyone but himself as he knew what he was thinking, whereas I did not. From his point of view it wasn't chance, it was a choice, and likewise he also wouldn't have known if I had been able to take a photo or not, that was chance to him as he had no control over my actions or ability.

One is only responsible for their own actions, any decision not up to them can have multiple outcomes. I can choose to flip the coin in the air, I cannot control how it lands.
 
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Actually that coin example is pretty pants in this context. Think of it more like, with portraits you know the outcome before you start the shoot (or have a really good idea at least), because everything is in your control, nothing is really left to chance bar a freak occurrence such as the building falls down. You make the shot the way you want it. With sports we have to shoot what we see, and apart from the direction we look, what we see isn't up to us, we cannot be 100% sure what shots we will have at the end, we just have to do our best.

On that note I think I should leave this thread as I've made my point and I'm just repeating myself.
 
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Toggerman said:
But from my frame of reference and having no control over the decision the scorer made, that is the very definition of chance, the probability of him running in any given direction was equal to everyone but himself as he knew what he was thinking, whereas I did not. From his point of view it wasn't chance, it was a choice, and likewise he also wouldn't have known if I had been able to take a photo or not, that was chance to him as he had no control over my actions or ability.

One is only responsible for their own actions, any decision not up to them can have multiple outcomes. I can choose to flip the coin in the air, I cannot control how it lands.
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But hang on a minute, theres still no luck involved whatever the outcome. i was never talking chance as such, chance is a calculable equation ie the flip of a coin will always give a one in two chance of landing heads or tails, even the chance of you winning the lottery based on choosing 6 numbers is a calculable chance giving you a chance of 1 in 13,983,816

I missed your post #64 above
 
You said in post #36 that in this context chance and luck are the same thing, which is how I always view it, same thing different word. Maybe I misunderstood.

If you are thinking of luck being if the camera was on your lap and the shutter fires for no reason and captures the best photo ever, then I agree the odds of that happening are insurmountable and it plays no part in anything.

But I do believe that there will always be an element of chance in sports. When a player is passed the ball you don't know which way they will run, experience and knowledge tells you they are more likely to run forwards towards the opponents goal, but they can, and in the case of my team mostly do, run backwards towards their own goal, but until the decision is made the possibilities all exist.
 
Luck plays a part for sure but you also need to have a feel for what you are shooting, I shoot my kids matches every week under 10s Saturday and under 17s Sunday so you get to know the players and what they will do and how they react which helps, I also shot an amateur team for a friend and for the first 20 mins it took a while to get any shots I was happy with due to the difference in speed and size of the players (howling winds also didn't help ) so helps with knowledge of the subject and a bit of luck ☺ just my 2 cents
 
If luck plays no part, why is it I hear constantly from the team the word "unlucky" whenever they miss a goal, have a goal saved etc?
 
Shooting mainly Championship and League 1 games I am trying to get goals and cele shots.

A few weeks ago at Barnsley I went up to the home end first half - and sat between the 6 yard and the edge of the goal mouth. They were playing Crewe who were bottom of the league. I was hoping that if Crewe scored in the first half I would get the goal/s and that they would turn my.

They scored (which I got) but turned the other way to run towards the dug-outs. However as they cele'd just past the dug-out they turned my way anyway, so win win.

Barnsley then scored at the other end, which I got and they scorer turned straight away from the goal back towards me - win win.

At half time, I moved to the corner flag as that is where more often than not Barnsley players run/slide to cele in front of their home fans. But but about three other photographers came and sat near me.

Now I am not saying you 'run' away from competition, but I decided as the game was fairly even and there were no other photographers in front of the Crewe supporters I would go there.

As it happened Crewe did score and I got the goal. Unfortunately the best cele shot was of a player who didn't score - a great fist jump right in front of me !!

The scorer did still come my way - gracias.

I figured that as I had all 3 goals and celes if the papers printed anything i would be in with a decent shout. Unfortunately they didn't.

In respect of getting the actual winning goal and cele, was it luck that I decided to move or was it good thinking based on other factors (as I wouldn't have moved had the other photographers not come and sat by me)?
---------

Last Saturday I was at Rotherham vs Ipswich. I was originally going to sit in front of the Ipswich fans for both halves. There were very few photographers.. A chap I know was there for the FLP. I asked him and he said he going to be in front of the Ipswich fans both halves. So I went to home fans. As it happened Ipswich scored 3 in the first half, all of which I got but I only had one of the celes.

I couldn't see Rotherham coming back from 0-3 down, so went to the Ipswich fans and sat much nearer to the goal than my mate. Rotherham then got 2 back and I'm thinking damn and blast this could be bad. However Ipswich scored 2 more and got both goals and celes. My mate had both as well.

Daryl Murphy of Ipswich scored a hat-trick. He hasn't scored this season and he was the top scorer in the Championship last season. I had 4 pics used in the nationals. One of his first half goal, one of his third goal and 2 cele shots. How my mates didn't get used I don't know. Part luck / part good thinking maybe?
 
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