Advice please

J

JordanHPhoto

Guest
Last week to my surprise one of my photos was published in The Football League Paper in the women's football section. I say to my surprise because I had no idea it was until I looked in the paper and as you may have guess I didn't get paid, (not even a name credit).

I emailed the paper and found out that the player herself had sent them the photo, they asked if i had an arrangement with her about the photo which of course i didn't (which i emailed them back saying). That was 5 days ago and i haven't got a reply back.

Just wondering what i should do next or is this a lost cause?
 
JordanHPhoto said:
what i should do next or is this a lost cause?
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IMO, this is a steal.

Any publisher is responsible of proper acquisition of media before publishing.
Obviously, they did not: SEVERE PROFESSIONAL NEGLIGENCE!

It happened to me here once and I was recommended by my lawyer to send
an invoice for 100€ giving the detail of the publication. They will either pay or
want to negotiate. Since it is too late for negotiations, they should pay or else.
In my case, to avoid any further difficulties, they payed. I know I may not expect
any future business whit this publication but who wants to be in business with
people like that.
 
Also, an add on. I give the club the photos for free as I'm the club photographer, but as I said the player who was being interview sent them my photo of her.
 
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You gave a print, which is an object. But the publisher should have asked for
the permission to print as he does not have the rights but you have them.

Pros are stamping their copyright on the back to make sure that they can
exercise their right.
 
Kodiak Qc said:
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You gave a print, which is an object. But the publisher should have asked for
the permission to print as he does not have the rights but you have them.

Pros are stamping their copyright on the back to make sure that they can
exercise their right.
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I'd expect as he's club photographer he gave the club the files for their use - I bill £200 for any unauthorised use by a paper - been paid full amount several times and negotiated lesser amounts (still several times their normal fee) for rest
 
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There is another point here…
If you are the club photographer, you were paid to shoot, right? If so, the club
must have said (you should have asked) the usual "W5" and your price should
have reflected this permission to use.

If the club asked you to do the shots to promote themselves in the local paper,
then the local paper has the permission you gave to the club. Then, there's
nothing to complain about.
 
This is going to come down to what the arrangement was with the club.

I am guessing that there was no 'official' arrangement. i.e. you shoot the game and you gave prints to the club or the player in question.

She assumes that as you gave her the print she owns the photos and can do with it what she pleases.

The FLP probably should have checked better and they may pay you their standard rate for it, but don't get too excited about how much you will get.

Why not see if you can come to some arrangement with the FLP and see if they will give you some commissions for photos from the team when they are going to do an article on them. It may be a better option that going in all guns blazing for £30.

Sometimes people think they can just submit an invoice for whatever they choose and have the publisher over a barrel but it doesn't work like that.
 
Kodiak Qc said:
•
There is another point here…
If you are the club photographer, you were paid to shoot, right? If so, the club
must have said (you should have asked) the usual "W5" and your price should
have reflected this permission to use.
Click to expand...

No i don't get paid as the club don't even pay the players so don't know how they're pay for photos.
 
bigrob said:
This is going to come down to what the arrangement was with the club.

I am guessing that there was no 'official' arrangement. i.e. you shoot the game and you gave prints to the club or the player in question.

She assumes that as you gave her the print she owns the photos and can do with it what she pleases.

The FLP probably should have checked better and they may pay you their standard rate for it, but don't get too excited about how much you will get.

Why not see if you can come to some arrangement with the FLP and see if they will give you some commissions for photos from the team when they are going to do an article on them. It may be a better option that going in all guns blazing for £30.
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Yeah the only arragement really is just that the club can use them on they're site and programme but as you said it wasn't really official.

As for commisions, i don't know whether they will even do another article about club anytime soon, i was surprised they did one last week.

I was thinking of sending an invoice but if you think that's not a good idea then i won't. Just annoyed that i didn't get anything for my photo in a national paper.
 
Kodiak Qc said:
•
There you have it!
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But it wasn't for a local paper, the football league paper is a national paper. I did use to give a local paper some photos but stopped this season because i didn't want to give photos away for free, hence my annoyance for this.
 
JordanHPhoto said:
Yeah the only arragement really is just that the club can use them on they're site and programme but as you said it wasn't really official.
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If that's not written down, then whilst it isn't right it's going to be a "he said, she said" and no one will win (except lawyers, should you get these involved - they always win).

If it ain't written down, you have no arrangement to speak of.
 
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Ok, stop worrying!
For get it and put this under the tab: past bad experiences.
To learn from these experiences you have to adopt a different
attitude toward you work!
 
Kodiak Qc said:
•
Ok, stop worrying!
For get it and put this under the tab: past bad experiences.
To learn from these experiences you have to adopt a different
attitude toward you work!
Click to expand...
Ok, think i will, thank you for your help everyone anyway.

Will look after my photos allot better now, i'm not going to let anyone (apart from the club) have free photos ever again, even if i didn't even know about.
 
@bigrob gave some good advice, @KIPAX might also be able to help if he comes online this evening
 
JordanHPhoto said:
Last week to my surprise one of my photos was published in The Football League Paper in the women's football section. I say to my surprise because I had no idea it was until I looked in the paper and as you may have guess I didn't get paid, (not even a name credit).

I emailed the paper and found out that the player herself had sent them the photo, they asked if i had an arrangement with her about the photo which of course i didn't (which i emailed them back saying). That was 5 days ago and i haven't got a reply back.

Just wondering what i should do next or is this a lost cause?
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You now email them saying " I have not heard anything form you regarding my photograph that was published in the Football League Paper on page *. on the * of Decemeber 2015.

Please could you confirm within 48rhs by email that you intend to make payment of a reproduction fee.Regards. Joe blogs.

It's as simple as that.

It's called taking control of the situation.
 
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JordanHPhoto said:
Ok, think i will, thank you for your help everyone anyway.

Will look after my photos allot better now, i'm not going to let anyone (apart from the club) have free photos ever again, even if i didn't even know about.
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The publication will know that they shouldn't have used your photo without permission, believe me they all know though they may try to deny it.

A photo that they get from a player isn't the players to give - and they do know it. It's not the player's fault it's the publication

I've always been paid for pictures that publications have ripped off - you can start with how shapeshifter has laid it out - or you can invoice them for a multiple of what they would normally pay and negotiate.
 
Jordan,what you have to remember is that you do not have to tell anyone that they can or cannot use yoyr photos.The legal position is no one is allowed to use your photos without obtaining your permission.The default possition is that the burden of establishing lawful use of the photo lies with the publisher.
People can think what they like.It is not your responsibility to inform anyone they can use your photo.If anyone publishis a photo without establishing that they have permission they run the risk of being persued for a fee. That is the Statutory law made by the government so you are protected from instances like what has happened here. Just email like I said and wait for the answer.You don't have to ramp it up if you don't want to.
All they will be saying at the FLP is " he has not asked us for any money, we are waiting till he does" Have you?
 
shapeshifter said:
All they will be saying at the FLP is " he has not asked us for any money, we are waiting till he does" Have you?
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When I first emailed them i said I was wondering about payment for usage of the image.

I might leave all this until after christmas or would that be too late?
 
There is no reason to leave it till after christmas at all. If you don't want to persue it just write it off in your mind and move on.

Or you can look at it as though it is a matter that needs resolving for you and other people who the FLP may do this to. By that I mean you need an answer from the FLP, if they are saying that they are not going to pay you then they need to say it, there is no need to ignore you. It does not mean that you will even persue it if they say they are not paying you. At this stage all you are doing is seeking an answer from them. There is nothing wrong with that at all. If they say they are not going to pay you-

You may shrug your shoulders and say " well they said the are not going to pay me that's that"
But you should get a refusal at least get that.

I
 
I've sent them an email saying

'Regarding my photograph that was published in the Football League Paper Issue * on page * on the * of December 2015 of * playing for *.The photo was used without my permission and the photo wasn't the players to give.

So I was wondering about a reproduction fee.'
 
Got an email back and i'm getting paid!

Thank you for all your help everyone. First time i've done this and now know what to do if it happens again.
 
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Well done, glad you got the right result
 
Isn't also appropriate and worthwhile formalising the 'free' arrangement with the club.

Surely free or not the club need to know what they are allowed and not allowed to do with any images?
 
:agree: Regarding what Box Brownie has advised. I couldn't agree more with this. Building relationships is a major part of progression. If you are happy to supply images for a club for free (nothing wrong with that if they are your local side, and you want to help promote their activities)
but be sure they all understand the limitations, ie for private use only. I have had the same scenario as most of you guys, pictures appearing where they shouldn't without the correct permissions and more importantly without the correct fee in place. A few emails back and forth, where the publication is convincing themselves that they have fulfilled all their obligations in aquiring the image and the rights, but fall short when they can not confirm or produce confirmation that the copyright owner had agreed to such activity. They presume you are stupid, and you will go away, but turn the thumb screws a bit so that they are aware that you know your stuff, and the 'rules' and it's better for them to pay you your fee rather than let it escalate. and PLEASE do not entertain any papers comment of "we are not in a position to be paying for any photo's"..that is codswhallop!!! They'd rather not be paying, but they can if they have to!
 
JordanHPhoto said:
Got an email back and i'm getting paid!

Thank you for all your help everyone. First time i've done this and now know what to do if it happens again.
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Always ask for payment, at least let them refuse.I know it can feel bad,but you let them off the hook if you don't ask.
 
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