air rifles

[big soft moose]

For culling anything you need a proper gun not a toy. Air rifles are toys. You don't see pheasant and grouse shooters using them so why would you try and kill a rabbit with what is little more than a pop gun? Target practice and tin cans. That's all air rifles are fit for.

Absolute rubbish

An air rifle putting out 12ftlb (or above if you hold a FAC) will easily do a rabbit, pigeon, corvid, rat, etc at a sensible range - and feild craft will get you close in the same way that it will a photographer

(Ive also used a FAC rated theoben eliminator to do Mink but I wouldnt recomend that with a sub FAC)

Anyone who thinks they are only fit for plinking obviously hasnt used a good one. (the proviso being that anything that outputs below 9ftlbs isnt powerful enough for live quarry and is restricted to target or plinking - that covers all sub fac pistols (The FAC limit for pistols being 6ftlbs) and a bunch of rifles but not by any means all)

They have the obvious benefit for hunting that they are quiet ( a precompressed rifle with silencer like the rapid 7 is virtually silent) and that overkill/over penetration isnt an issue - that is you can use one in a position where it would be insane to use a rimfire or shotgun. The other benefit when shooting rabbits is that there is only one wound and the meat isnt spolied in the way it would be with multiple shotgun pellets

 

[big soft moose]

er no, not quite

And just for the record some people do use them to kill pheasent when its in season, its just most prefer to use shotguns

no i really dont think so - pheasants are shot in flight and you can't do that with an air rifle (not unless you are an absolute phenomenal shot - and if you are that good you ought to be shooting proffesionally)

People do use air rifles with lamps and silencers to poach pheasant - largely knocking them out of trees while they are asleep - but thats illegal and really not to be recommended.

 

[big soft moose]

Shotgun on a deer!!!!! I truly hope not.

Theres no particular reason why not with the right load - clearly you can't take a red in open country because you'll never get close enough, but theres no reason not to use a shotgun when controlling muntjac, roe etc in close woodland, so long as you use a cartridge with deer slugs, obviously shooting deer with birdshot or similar would be a very bad idea

 

[mxfun]

My dad's the expert not me. He's been killing rabbits, deer, pheasants etc for 50+ years. I know he wouldn't use an air rifle for any of that. Next door neighbour used to try and kill pigeons with an air rifle. They were generally found half dead. If they were dead it was the fall to the ground that killed them

Just because I think they're pop guns doesn't mean I'd either a) play with them or b) stand in front of one.

Mice or rats at close range. Fair enough. Not rabbits unless you are going to get them in the head every time and sufficiently close to kill them quickly.

As you said ...your dads the expert

 

[archamedes]

no i really dont think so - pheasants are shot in flight and you can't do that with an air rifle (not unless you are an absolute phenomenal shot - and if you are that good you ought to be shooting proffesionally)

People do use air rifles with lamps and silencers to poach pheasant - largely knocking them out of trees while they are asleep - but thats illegal and really not to be recommended.

you can shoot them on ground too while they are awake, many people with air rifles do that, but others frown upon it

 

[u8myufo]

many many many moons ago i came 4th in the country shoot at cadets for air rifle.

Yeh and look at you now Neil, it`s all you can do to shoot a decent picture

 

[big soft moose]

you can shoot them on ground too while they are awake, many people with air rifles do that, but others frown upon it

and how many keepers are up for that ? Not many i'd wager

the point being that to use any gun ( including air weapons) legally in the uk you need to have the consent of the landowner or their agents - and as pheasants are generally an investment for people who run shoots i can't see many letting you weed them out with an air rifle.

Also a sub FAC air rifle isnt powerful enough to kill a pheasant cleanly from a shot in the body , and a shot to the head is a very chancy thing.

 

[Cobra]

, except the deer of course which would explain why he has a shotgun

Highly ileagle! and has been for quite a few years.

Air rifles over the years like a lot of things, have evolved.
A wad cutter (flat nose) or a so called expander, will take out feral pigeons absolutely no problem with either a head shot, or a well placed chest shot.

Rabbits, I must admit to prefering a .22 rimmy or a .17hmr though.

 

[big soft moose]

Rabbits, I must admit to prefering a .22 rimmy or a .17hmr though.[/COLOR]

I can't disagree (although i gave up my firearms and over FAc air rifles because I couldnt be bothered with the faff or maintaining a FAC ) but thats principally from the convenience of being able to take them at longer range.

my .22 BSA supersport SS (with bisley pest control cup nosed pellets) outputting spot on the legal limit , will easily do a rabbit with either a head or heart shot from within 30-40yds - the trick is of course getting that close through either feild craft or using a lamp

 

[wisemen]

Theres no particular reason why not with the right load -

I thought it was illegal, as per Cobra's post, except in exceptional circumstances, then like you said, OK assuming the right loads.

Also agree that I have absolutely no problem controlling rabbits with my little BSA Ultra .177 up to around 45 yards on a still day.

 

[archamedes]

and how many keepers are up for that ? Not many i'd wager

the point being that to use any gun ( including air weapons) legally in the uk you need to have the consent of the landowner or their agents - and as pheasants are generally an investment for people who run shoots i can't see many letting you weed them out with an air rifle..

Well one of the landowners that allows me to shoot on her farm has told us that if any pheasents wander onto her land while in season then its okay with her that we shoot them. The other places we shoot are against it, but its all down to the person as you say

 

[Cobra]

I can't disagree (although i gave up my firearms and over FAc air rifles because I couldnt be bothered with the faff or maintaining a FAC ) but thats principally from the convenience of being able to take them at longer range.

my .22 BSA supersport SS (with bisley pest control cup nosed pellets) outputting spot on the legal limit , will easily do a rabbit with either a head or heart shot from within 30-40yds - the trick is of course getting that close through either feild craft or using a lamp

I thought it was illegal, as per Cobra's post, except in exceptional circumstances, then like you said, OK assuming the right loads.

Also agree that I have absolutely no problem controlling rabbits with my little BSA Ultra .177 up to around 45 yards on a still day.

I've never taken a rabbit at more than 25 yards with an air rifle,
but as i understand it they are more than capable (in the right hands of course)
of longer distances.
I think a few people may be rembering the old style springers, from a few years ago,
that as someone said earlier, were little more than toy's, with around 3 or 4lb/sqin.
(of course thats to say no gun should ever be treadted as one, not even the "GATs" (remember those? lol)

And I am pretty sure the the minimum calabre for deer is .243.(inc. Muntjac now IIRC)
and that does't include the "solid slugs" either.
You are not even supposed to shoot foxes now with anything less than a .222
Although a high velocity .22 rimmy in the right hands will take them out at circa 100yards.

 

[duttytd]

Decided that im going for a BSA R10

 

[Cobra]

Decided that im going for a BSA R10

I hope you are strong
A spare bottle and spare mag might be worth concidering too,
then you never get caught short

 

[duttytd]

I hope you are strong
A spare bottle and spare mag might be worth concidering too,
then you never get caught short

Yeah i hear they are heavy and im guessing will be a pain when i have a bipod attached.

Will defo get a spare bottle and a few mags. Im looking at second hand.

 

[big soft moose]

I thought it was illegal, as per Cobra's post, except in exceptional circumstances, then like you said, OK assuming the right loads.
.

You may well be right its been a long time since ive done any deer control - my point though was that the shotgun is capable of it (and widely used for that purpose in the states and elsewhere)

 

[big soft moose]

Yeah i hear they are heavy and im guessing will be a pain when i have a bipod attached.

Will defo get a spare bottle and a few mags. Im looking at second hand.

and don't forget to budget for a divers bottle and refill kit - you don't want to be forever going off to get your little bottles recharged as that will cost a fortune.

Also don't forget to budget for a decent scope - cheap scopes are a false enconomy

Incidentally with regard to the weight it depends on how much you are moving arround - if you are shooting from hides and blinds its fine but its not much fun if you are lamping on foot or doing squirells , or anything else that involves a lot of moving arround ( and I'd not worry about the bipod they are only any good if you are shooting from prone)

I used to have a rapid 7 in .22 and a rapid .25 but I eventually decided they werent worth the weight as its not that often you need to shoot that quickly in succesion so I went back to springers - I've currently got a BSA supersport SS in .22 (with a theoben gas strut conversion instead of a spring) and a theoben fenman in .177 - They are both light and well balanced and both output bang on the legal limit.

 

[duttytd]

How do you find the gas strut conversion?

 

[big soft moose]

I look under the barrel where the sping used to be

joking aside I like it - you still get the thwack on the piston head hitting the end of the chamber but its a lot less twangy and doesnt cause anywhere near the same judder - its also virtually maintenance free and is very unlikely to break - and delivers more power.

They arent the cheapest but they are easy to fit yourself if you know what you are doing - although I go a local gunsmith to fit mine while the beezer was in for a general service

http://www.theoben.co.uk/product.php?productid=36&cat=8&page=1

 

[duttytd]

I look under the barrel where the sping used to be

You never fail to amaze me

 

[fracster]

For culling anything you need a proper gun not a toy. Air rifles are toys. You don't see pheasant and grouse shooters using them so why would you try and kill a rabbit with what is little more than a pop gun? Target practice and tin cans. That's all air rifles are fit for.

Hahahahahah.................hahahahaha............

I have a .243, a 22270,the odd twelve bore and an air rifle. The air rifle has its uses and is certainly not a pop gun.Horses for courses, they have a use, like when the greys decide to eat my bird food and for despatching caged mink.

 

[MartynK]

I've never taken a rabbit at more than 25 yards with an air rifle,
but as i understand it they are more than capable (in the right hands of course)
of longer distances.
I think a few people may be rembering the old style springers, from a few years ago,
that as someone said earlier, were little more than toy's, with around 3 or 4lb/sqin.
(of course thats to say no gun should ever be treadted as one, not even the "GATs" (remember those? lol)

And I am pretty sure the the minimum calabre for deer is .243.(inc. Muntjac now IIRC)
and that does't include the "solid slugs" either.
You are not even supposed to shoot foxes now with anything less than a .222
Although a high velocity .22 rimmy in the right hands will take them out at circa 100yards.

Hmm. My old springer Meteor and Airsporter were powerful enough to take them well out of the 'little more than toys' class.

Minimum calibres and ballistics for deer depend on where you are shooting (England/Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland), and the quarry.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I've never taken a rabbit at more than 25 yards with an air rifle,
but as i understand it they are more than capable (in the right hands of course)
of longer distances.
I think a few people may be rembering the old style springers, from a few years ago,
that as someone said earlier, were little more than toy's, with around 3 or 4lb/sqin.
(of course thats to say no gun should ever be treadted as one, not even the "GATs" (remember those? lol)

And I am pretty sure the the minimum calabre for deer is .243.(inc. Muntjac now IIRC)
and that does't include the "solid slugs" either.
You are not even supposed to shoot foxes now with anything less than a .222
Although a high velocity .22 rimmy in the right hands will take them out at circa 100yards.

Yes, air rifles have come on a lot in the last few years and they may be capable of humane kills on rabbit at 40 yards or so - but it's all about shot placement, and although I think that I'm a capable shot I can't guarantee to put the round in the head at that distance every single time - in fact I can't guarantee that at any distance. It doesn't matter that people can punch a hole in a bit of paper in the same place every time, it isn't the same thing, the paper doesn't suddenly move while the round is on it's way, and it doesn't matter with a paper target if the round doesn't hit the bull - you can't wound a bit of paper...

So, although I don't see air rifles as toys, they are more than capable of causing death, I wouldn't shoot rabbits with them, and certainly not at long distances. And I wouldn't shoot anything bigger than a rabbit at any distance.

That's what real rifles are for. Even the humble .22, loaded with subsonic ammo, has nearly 10x the power of the best non-certificated air rifles and is far more likely to kill humanely if the shot is a bit off course - or even a lot off course. Get a FAC and do it humanely or not at all - I'm sure that statement won't go down well with airgunners, but I believe that death for animals should be instant and humane, regardless of their species.

Foxes need controlling, but nothing less than a centrefire is humane (although a .17HMR is fine at short ranges, subject to FAC conditions) and deer in England and Wales need a .243 as a minimum.

And as for killing deer with a shotgun - well, it's legal and the right thing to do only at very close range, to prevent further suffering. For example when scumbag poachers have wounded one and left it to die, or when it's injured itself badly on a fence or similar and the only way of helping it is to put it down.

 

[srichards]

I don't know what he uses on deer. I'd assume not a shotgun then if they're not suitable from a reasonable distance away.

 

[lizzy23]

I don't know what he uses on deer. I'd assume not a shotgun then if they're not suitable from a reasonable distance away.

the only thing he should use on deer is a rifle, for which he will need a firearms license as opposed to a shotgun license

 

[srichards]

the only thing he should use on deer is a rifle, for which he will need a firearms license as opposed to a shotgun license

It will be a rifle then

 

[big soft moose]

Yes, air rifles have come on a lot in the last few years and they may be capable of humane kills on rabbit at 40 yards or so - but it's all about shot placement, and although I think that I'm a capable shot I can't guarantee to put the round in the head at that distance every single time - in fact I can't guarantee that at any distance. It doesn't matter that people can punch a hole in a bit of paper in the same place every time, it isn't the same thing, the paper doesn't suddenly move while the round is on it's way, and it doesn't matter with a paper target if the round doesn't hit the bull - you can't wound a bit of paper...

.

thats true, but its also true of gunpowder rifles and indeed any other firearm - you can't absolutely guarantee that the target won't move after you've pulled the trigger or that the round won't affect by wind, downdrafts etc.

And while every hunter tries to kill cleanly there are always going to be times when you wound your target regardless of you weapon of choice.

what matter then is that you follow up your wounded prey and make sure it isn't left to suffer.

When i used to do a lot of lamping (foxes with a .243 or rabbits with an air rifle) I used to also have a mate and his long dog along - and a lurcher is more than capable of following up a wounded rabbit or fox before it can go to ground

 

[fracster]

And while every hunter tries to kill cleanly there are always going to be times when you wound your target regardless of you weapon of choice.

what matter then is that you follow up your wounded prey and make sure it isn't left to suffer.

Absolutely correct.............

 

[Garry Edwards]

thats true, but its also true of gunpowder rifles and indeed any other firearm - you can't absolutely guarantee that the target won't move after you've pulled the trigger or that the round won't affect by wind, downdrafts etc.

And while every hunter tries to kill cleanly there are always going to be times when you wound your target regardless of you weapon of choice.

what matter then is that you follow up your wounded prey and make sure it isn't left to suffer.

When i used to do a lot of lamping (foxes with a .243 or rabbits with an air rifle) I used to also have a mate and his long dog along - and a lurcher is more than capable of following up a wounded rabbit or fox before it can go to ground

I agree 100%. The point I was trying to make is that, with an air rifle, that tiny, lightweight slow moving pellet has to hit the quarry in a very specific area. If it doesn't, then the animal can have a slow and painful death. And nobody can guarantee that every shot will go exactly where it should, for all sorts of reasons.

And although a real rifle can also wound instead of killing, the need for precise placement, although still there, is far less critical. In other words, hit a rabbit in the shoulder with an air rifle and it suffers. Hit it in the shoulder with a .22 LR RF and it's instantly dead. Hit it in the back leg with a .22 LR RF and it suffers, hit it there with a .17 HMR or any centrefire round and it's instantly dead.

There are sound reasons for NOT using very powerful rounds (cost + meat damage) but for humane reasons, personally I'm against having only 'just enough power if everything works out perfectly". I sometimes wonder whether some of the airgunners use air weapons just because they haven't got/can't get a FAC

 

[big soft moose]

I largely agree although in my experience an air rifle that out puts 12ftlbs can easily kill a rabbit from a body shot at 30yds so while pellet placement is important its not a case of head shot or nothing

Also with regard to wounding the same could be said of rabbit control with a shotgun - which is very common , a rabbit in the centre of the shot cone will be killed outright but one caught in the edge of the cone may well only be wounded - and the potential for wounding multiples is far higher than with an air rifle firing only one pellet.

I do agree with you about 'just enough power' and I don't personally hold with the usual rule of thumb that anything over 9ftlbs is fine for hunting - I do think however that a 12ftlb rifle is okay in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

I also agree about many people choosing sub FAC airweapons because they havent got a FAC (in my case i used to have a FAC and a range of both actual firearms and plus Fac air weapons, but gave them up when I no longer required them for work - for ocassional hunting/pest control I find my sub FAc 12ftlb rifles more than adequate )

I'd also say that the other (possibly main) reason to choose an air rifle over a more powerful round is safety , even a .22 LRRF can carry considerably beyond the target which isnt true of a sub FAC air rifle

 

[MartynK]

Foxes need controlling, but nothing less than a centrefire is humane (although a .17HMR is fine at short ranges, subject to FAC conditions) and deer in England and Wales need a .243 as a minimum.

And as for killing deer with a shotgun - well, it's legal and the right thing to do only at very close range, to prevent further suffering. For example when scumbag poachers have wounded one and left it to die, or when it's injured itself badly on a fence or similar and the only way of helping it is to put it down.

I agree with most of what you say, but .22 centrefires with a minimum bullet weight of 50 grains and muzzle energy of 1,000 ft lbs are legal for Muntjac and Chinese Water deer in England and Wales now. It's .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 ft lbs for the other species. The details are on BASC's website http://www.basc.org.uk/en/codes-of-practice/deer-stalking.cfm and there's a discussion in Sporting Rifle (June 2012) too.

 

[krazy_horse]

Another airgunner here, had plenty of springers and PCPs (PreCharged Pneumatics) in the past. Can highly recommend the Daystate Mk3, get the regulated version for very consistent shot to shot accuracy. These work on an electronic trigger and solenoid system which makes them near enough silent (with a Weihrauch 1/2" silencer too).

Also another vote for .177, don't have to worry about the loopy trajectory of the .22 so much!

Also I would also recommend joining here: www.airgunbbs.com its like here but for airguns... Plus they have a very good private sales section which I have bought and sold hundreds of items over the years without a single problem.

Cheers,

JB

 

[Garry Edwards]

You're absolutely right, but the reality surely is that we don't know exactly what we're going to find so as we can't weigh ourselves down with all the different minimum-approved calibre rifles, it makes sense to stick to what we can carry, and either .243 or .308 is fine for fox upwards, and .22 LR RF is fine for rabbits etc.

I'd also say that the other (possibly main) reason to choose an air rifle over a more powerful round is safety , even a .22 LRRF can carry considerably beyond the target which isnt true of a sub FAC air rifle

I sort of agree, but short of using an air rifle to safely shoot a grey up in a tree, where it would be totally irresponsible to use anything other than a shotgun or an air rifle, it comes down to making sure that there is a safe backstop when using any weapon.

Another airgunner here, had plenty of springers and PCPs (PreCharged Pneumatics) in the past. Can highly recommend the Daystate Mk3, get the regulated version for very consistent shot to shot accuracy. These work on an electronic trigger and solenoid system which makes them near enough silent (with a Weihrauch 1/2" silencer too).

Yeah... but the silent argument doesn't hold with a subsonic .22 round - with any mod fitted, it's silent.

 

[big soft moose]

Another airgunner here, had plenty of springers and PCPs (PreCharged Pneumatics) in the past. Can highly recommend the Daystate Mk3, get the regulated version for very consistent shot to shot accuracy. These work on an electronic trigger and solenoid system which makes them near enough silent (with a Weihrauch 1/2" silencer too).

Also another vote for .177, don't have to worry about the loopy trajectory of the .22 so much!

Also I would also recommend joining here: www.airgunbbs.com its like here but for airguns... Plus they have a very good private sales section which I have bought and sold hundreds of items over the years without a single problem.

Cheers,

JB

Isnt that basically for match and competition shooting though - I've never thought about using that system in the feild , it just seems like more to go wrong.

In my experience any precharged rifle with a good silencer is more or less silent (or as near as matters in the feild given the noise the pellet makes when arriving on target)

It is of course virtually impossible to fully silence a spring gun as you here the piston hitting the end of the chamber - but that said my BSA supersport SS is quiet enough that you can get more than one shot in on a flock of pigeons before they realise whast is happening (another adventage over firearms)

 

[big soft moose]

I sort of agree, but short of using an air rifle to safely shoot a grey up in a tree, where it would be totally irresponsible to use anything other than a shotgun or an air rifle, it comes down to making sure that there is a safe backstop when using any weapon.

True - but what consitutes a safe backstop is different for different power weapons

For example if you've got a bunch of rabbits grazing in the middle of a feild you can only safely take the shot if a round that misses will fall to earth before it reaches the far side of the feild. Obviously the lower powered the weapon the less far the round will go so the smaller range beyond target you need for a safe shot.

another situation that comes to mind is shooting rats arround a farmyard - you still obviouly need to make sure you have a safe backstop but the chances of harm from a stray shot or ricochet are considerably less with an airrifle than they are with even a LRRF

 

[big soft moose]

Also another vote for .177, don't have to worry about the loopy trajectory of the .22 so much!

Thats an argument which could run and run (rather like nikon vs canon or raw vs jpeg ) personally although i've got both I prefer the .22 for hunting (I also like the .25 but not the weight of the rapid 25 I used to have) - My view is that the loopy trajectory isnt a problem if you've a well zeroed scope and the pellet delivers more energy dump on target, is less prone to over penetration, and less succeptible to side wind

But i'm sure we could argue that backwards and fowards all day without reaching a conclusion, as its really a matter of personal prefference

 

[duttytd]

Another airgunner here, had plenty of springers and PCPs (PreCharged Pneumatics) in the past. Can highly recommend the Daystate Mk3, get the regulated version for very consistent shot to shot accuracy. These work on an electronic trigger and solenoid system which makes them near enough silent (with a Weihrauch 1/2" silencer too).

Also another vote for .177, don't have to worry about the loopy trajectory of the .22 so much!

Also I would also recommend joining here: www.airgunbbs.com its like here but for airguns... Plus they have a very good private sales section which I have bought and sold hundreds of items over the years without a single problem.

Cheers,

JB

The mk3 is a lovely rifle but my limit is about 600 :-(

 

[Cobra]

I look under the barrel where the sping used to be

You never fail to amaze me

Thats better

And as for killing deer with a shotgun - well, it's legal and the right thing to do only at very close range, to prevent further suffering. For example when scumbag poachers have wounded one and left it to die, or when it's injured itself badly on a fence or similar and the only way of helping it is to put it down.

I knew you would be around to set the record straight

I agree with most of what you say, but .22 centrefires with a minimum bullet weight of 50 grains and muzzle energy of 1,000 ft lbs are legal for Muntjac and Chinese Water deer in England and Wales now. It's .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 ft lbs for the other species. The details are on BASC's website http://www.basc.org.uk/en/codes-of-practice/deer-stalking.cfm and there's a discussion in Sporting Rifle (June 2012) too.

Another change in the law then.
I guess it gives the bureaucrats something to do

 

[killy]

Anyone else?

If you want the best get a Theoben Rapid .177 Mk 1 or Mk 2

If you want something lighter get a Fx Cyclone or Verminator only problem is the mag is a bit fiddley so get a rapid

Regards

Mike

 

[duttytd]

If you want the best get a Theoben Rapid .177 Mk 1 or Mk 2

If you want something lighter get a Fx Cyclone or Verminator only problem is the mag is a bit fiddley so get a rapid

Regards

Mike

The Mrs dad said yesterday get a rapid 7mk1 he said its one of the best rifles he has owned and he has had loads of rifles.