An Independent Scotland?

Bobsyeruncle said:
Why are people from outside Scotland arguing/debating this?
It's got nothing to do with you, it's our decision, so zip it! :p
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Everyone has the right to an opinion. This isn't about Scotland leaving rUK it's about our right to self determination, I've said before we're not going to sail off into the sunset after September 18th.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Why are people from outside Scotland arguing/debating this?
It's got nothing to do with you, it's our decision, so zip it! :p
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Why shouldn't we debate this?
I'm English, some Scots on my Mothers side, and if I lived in Scotland I'd be voting yes. But that's irrelevant. I do find it wrong that you'd even stop us being involved in the debate/argument though as it effects us too!
 
Keith W said:
No



Nope



Not right

It was not said in direct relation to Scotland, it was a general statement about any new state wishing to join the EU (which would be inclusive of Scotland)
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Taken out of context (the conversation was specifically about Eastern European countries) his words were twisted by vested interests to include Scotland by default and they were corrected by him later to the BBC. According to Juncker Scotlands case is an 'internal EU matter' because we are already members. All our citizens are already European citizens, this will not magically cease to be true in 2016.
 
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Steep said:
You do love to talk us all down don't you Nick? You're like that Stephenson woman (academic and uni professer) on twitter who said "yes voters are generally under educated and stupider than no voters"
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I'll have to give back my PhD after the vote lol
 
Tell you what Keith, since no-one in the EU can answer the question until after we hold the referendum why don't we leave it till then.
 
Keith W said:
Scotland as part of the UK would be

Scotland as an independent state would not be
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except leaving the EU is not automatic even with Scotland becoming independant. Scottish citizens are part of the EU therefore we will continue to be part of the EU until we request to leave. This is article 50 which ironically was put in by the UK government lol
 
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I bought a van from a dealer in Lanark last week, he was in his 60s

He said he's asked a lot of people , friends and business colleagues all around his age and he hasn't found anybody that wants an independent Scotland

He went so far as to say they're terrified it'll come because the Scottish politicians want it which is why they've given the vote to 16 year olds.

He's worried that once there's a Scottish government, spending and inflation will get out of control making selling goods to the rest of the country impossible which is 60% of his business.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Why are people from outside Scotland arguing/debating this?
It's got nothing to do with you, it's our decision, so zip it! :p
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It may very well be your decision alone but the repercussions will be felt across the whole of the UK.
 
POAH said:
except leaving the EU is not automatic even with Scotland becoming independant. Scottish citizens are part of the EU therefore we will continue to be part of the EU until we request to leave. This is article 50 which ironically was put in by the UK government lol
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You are misunderstanding

Scotland is only a member state of the EU by virtue of being in the UK - vote to leave the UK then you would no longer be a member of the EU
 
Correct - and if Scotland decide to join the EU it will take at least 7 years.
It does not mean that you qualify to join overnight.
 
Tell you what Keith, since no-one in the EU can answer the question until after we hold the referendum why don't we leave it till then.
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But how can that be Hugh? The SNP White paper says you will remain in the EU? Salmond has said numerous times that Independence means you will stay in the EU as you are now?
So, are you saying that the White paper may not be accurate? Is this a second peace of fiction in that document?

Shock and horror! I bet the SNP wont tell voters that will they?

So thats 2 parts that are inaccurate. How much more of it is rubbish?
 
I love the way you two are sooo definite. You must let me know your source of information, especially you Nick, I've not heard the 7 years one before.
 
wack61 said:
I bought a van from a dealer in Lanark last week, he was in his 60s

He said he's asked a lot of people , friends and business colleagues all around his age and he hasn't found anybody that wants an independent Scotland

He went so far as to say they're terrified it'll come because the Scottish politicians want it which is why they've given the vote to 16 year olds.

He's worried that once there's a Scottish government, spending and inflation will get out of control making selling goods to the rest of the country impossible which is 60% of his business.
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Tell him there's already a Scottish government, has been for quite some time. Being in his 60s he's probably relying on main stream media for his news and that's where project doubt works best. It's true that most no voters in the general public tend to be 60 and above. That's understandable, at that age they are less prone to look to the future as an opportunity, thank goodness we still have the 17-50+ year olds :)
 
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I still want a definitive answer as to whether or not fuel duty will be scrapped seeing as our "vast" oil supplies should easily be able to supply Scotland.
 
The points made in this 'thread', in all 1500 replies, and 38 pages of it, will have absolutely no impact on the outcome of the referendum.

Those in the 'yes camp' here have made up their minds which way they will vote, as have those in the 'no camp', Those of us across the border, don't have a vote.

From what I have have read here, not one person in the 'yes camp' has convinced anyone in the 'no camp' to vote 'yes', and vesa-versa.

I think that the outcome will be decided by the 'middle ground voters', who have yet to make up their mind, and TP is not 'talking' to them.

Most of the English input here (myself included) has been in favour of retaining the Union, but not one of us has convinced a 'yes camp' member to change his mind, and nor will we.

Be it 'Yes' or be it 'No', the Scottish people will decide, and at the 'end of the day', there will be a lot of happy people, and a lot of unhappy people.

In the meantime, perhaps we should all put our 'soap boxes' away, get out and enjoy the summer, and some photography.:)

Dave
 
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To be fair, considering it's a politically related thread I'd say it's been a very civil and interesting debate. I enjoy hearing everyone's point of view whether I agree with it or not, which I personally believe is a healthy attitude to have. :)
 
Graham the benefits of oil come from the taxes levied on the oil companies and on the sale of oil, that's worth far more to Scotland than the few million gallons of fuel we might use per year ourselves.
 
gman said:
To be fair, considering it's a politically related thread I'd say it's been a very civil and interesting debate. I enjoy hearing everyone's point of view whether I agree with it or not, which I personally believe is a healthy attitude to have. :)
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Indeed Graham, it has been surprisingly civil for a political debate, and that is a credit to the participants.

However, 'Fracster' who started this 'thread' way back in February said "just interested to see if Scottish members thought it to be a good idea or not.". So in effect, being English, I actually invited myself to the discussion. :sneaky:

It has been an interesting discussion, and some very valid point made by both 'sides', but some parts of the 'record' seem to have got stuck, as the same points have been made several times over, with the same resulting argument and counter argument perpetuated.

It may be of course that some members have joined the 'thread' quite late on (it has been going since February), and not bothered to read from the beginning.

I guess the 'thread' will continue in the same vein until the referendum, when it will likely change to one of :banana: or :(.

Dave
 
Steep said:
Graham the benefits of oil come from the taxes levied on the oil companies and on the sale of oil, that's worth far more to Scotland than the few million gallons of fuel we might use per year ourselves.
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I still don't see why we should have to pay so much duty on fuel when we would be allegedly self sufficient? Most other countries don't impose such high duties.

If it's for the benefit of Scotland then it should be on the export of oil only. This would also allow Scotland to be far more competitive when it comes to transportation of goods both within Scotland and Internationally. It's also a disgrace that VAT is charged on Duty, so effectively a tax on a tax.
 
DaveS2 said:
Indeed Graham, it has been surprisingly civil for a political debate, and that is a credit to the participants.

However, 'Fracster' who started this 'thread' way back in February said "just interested to see if Scottish members thought it to be a good idea or not.". So in effect, being English, I actually invited myself to the discussion. :sneaky:

It has been an interesting discussion, and some very valid point made by both 'sides', but some parts of the 'record' seem to have got stuck, as the same points have been made several times over, with the same resulting argument and counter argument perpetuated.

It may be of course that some members have joined the 'thread' quite late on (it has been going since February), and not bothered to read from the beginning.

I guess the 'thread' will continue in the same vein until the referendum, when it will likely change to one of :banana: or :(.

Dave
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And not even February this year ;)
 
gman said:
I still don't see why we should have to pay so much duty on fuel when we would be allegedly self sufficient? Most other countries don't impose such high duties.

If it's for the benefit of Scotland then it should be on the export of oil only. This would also allow Scotland to be far more competitive when it comes to transportation of goods both within Scotland and Internationally. It's also a disgrace that VAT is charged on Duty, so effectively a tax on a tax.
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I don't disagree with you on any of that, vote yes!
 
This is my concern though, they haven't given any reasonable guideline on what their plans are other than they'll just look at it. I appreciate it may not be entirely possible as they'd need to see how the rest of the country's income pans out, but then that just reinforces my current belief that the UK Fuel Duty is just a stealth tax imposed to make up for either a shortfall in income elsewhere or an excess in expenditure on things we don't want or need.

On saying that, the price at the pumps is something which has a substantial impact on almost everyone in the country and were they to promise to scrap the duty enabling the price at the pumps to drop below the pound then the amount of support they would get would probably be overwhelming. It would certainly make me think twice seeing as I get about 22mpg (Urban) at the moment lol

If this were to happen then we'd definitely need a big wall at the border! Or proof of Scottish residency before being able to fill up! lol
 
Of course fuel duty is a stealth tax, Iraq and Afghanistan have to be paid for and income tax doesn't cover it.
I can see some cross border fuel fiddling going on if Scottish pump prices fall but between Eire and NI the price is about 15p? lower in the South, you'd have to buy an awful lot to make it worthwhile driving any distance to get it.
 
Steep said:
I love the way you two are sooo definite. You must let me know your source of information, especially you Nick, I've not heard the 7 years one before.
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It's been mentioned previously in this thread on numerous occasions. I have been following it from day one. It's also been mentioned in debates on national TV with some frequency.
 
I'm sure I've seen it mentioned somewhere that the moon is made of green cheese.
 
Keith W said:
You are misunderstanding

Scotland is only a member state of the EU by virtue of being in the UK - vote to leave the UK then you would no longer be a member of the EU
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that doesn't matter wither we are a member by being part of the UK. We simply can't stop being EU citizens because we gain independance due to article 50.
 
Of course fuel duty is a stealth tax, Iraq and Afghanistan have to be paid for and income tax doesn't cover it.
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And what the SNP don't tell you is, they say they want to be a full member of NATO.
Afghanistan was a result of an attack on a NATO member. As such the NATO charter meant that it was an atttack on all members of NATO, and it was expected that all members would join together to deal with the attackers

The idea that fuel duty is high because of Afghanistan & Iraq is complete rubbish, but even if it was true, you'd still be paying it in an Independent Scotland. Either that or it would have to be raised another way, like in reality it is currently.

I'd hazard a guess that it will stay as is, because it's the only way to finance the social security policy.
 
POAH said:
that doesn't matter wither we are a member by being part of the UK. We simply can't stop being EU citizens because we gain independance due to article 50.
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You really do not understand do you?

Have you actually read article 50?

Do you have any understanding of it and it's implications?
 
I don't think there is an article in the Lisbon treaty to cover Scotland's separation from the UK, considering that and other issues it's my view that the EU will choose the path of least resistance which is to accept Scotland as a continuing member. The one overriding factor in this is that all Scottish citizens are and will continue to be European citizens. How does the EU go about disenfranchising 5 million people? can you imagine the legal repercussions? the answer is it doesn't go there, Scotland will continue as a member state, newly created.
 
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