An Independent Scotland?

Cobra said:
However if you are correct Hugh,
it looks like a no vote will start it all off again,
and it (the debate) will continue for many years to come.

Which is rather a shame, if it really is "tearing Scotland apart"
(If some sources are to be believed :( )
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Scots have always been an argumentative bunch of eedjits, the stuff you see in the papers is tame compared to the average page on a football clubs forum/site. If the vote is yes I suspect a lot of no voters will be secretly relieved and will just get down to it with the rest of us. Once they see that we're not going to be attacked by aliens or invaded by the French life will go on as normal.

The thing about no not being the end of it, I've said before in this thread that a close vote either way would be the worst result, a close yes win leaves the door open for a revived no campaign to try to get the decision reversed, or a future no leaning government to try to rejoin the union. I'll take a yes win by one vote if I have to but I'd much rather win by a big margin.
 
By all accounts we are going to be invaded anyway! Ed Millyvanillyband says he's sending hundreds of Labour MPs up to Scotland to tell us they love us.
 
Steep said:
The thing about no not being the end of it, I've said before in this thread that a close vote either way would be the worst result, a close yes win leaves the door open for a revived no campaign to try to get the decision reversed, or a future no leaning government to try to rejoin the union. I'll take a yes win by one vote if I have to but I'd much rather win by a big margin.
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TBH I think everyone is hoping for a large margin win (both "up there" and "down here" )
( so that it is settled, once and for all either way. :) )
 
Steep said:
By all accounts we are going to be invaded anyway! Ed Millyvanillyband says he's sending hundreds of Labour MPs up to Scotland to tell us they love us.
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Any chance of keeping them up there?
Hold them to ransom or something?
(We don't want them back :D )
 
Cobra said:
"tearing Scotland apart"
:( )
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Tearing Scotland apart.

It should have been the slogan for the Yes campaign because regardless of the outcome - that's what this referendum has already done.

'Better together' on the other hand should have been an anti referendum Scottish Slogan.
 
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A curious thought just occurred to me,
supposing England decided to go it alone,
deciding to disenfranchise (Is the the right word?)
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
We would no longer be there to be the "fall guy"

Now that would create a political stink
and some serious issues.
Obviously half (?) of Scotland would be happy
a portion of Wales and NI would also be happy.
Perhaps we should :D
 
Cobra said:
A curious thought just occurred to me,
supposing England decided to go it alone,
deciding to disenfranchise (Is the the right word?)
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
We would no longer be there to be the "fall guy"

Now that would create a political stink
and some serious issues.
Obviously half (?) of Scotland would be happy
a portion of Wales and NI would also be happy.
Perhaps we should :D
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That would be like being dumped rather than saying 'it's not you it's me'.:)
 
dinners said:
That would be like being dumped rather than saying 'it's not you it's me'.:)
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Aren't they both the same?
You still get "dumped" how ever it happens. ;)

A curious thought though, no? :)
 
Steep said:
, I've said before in this thread that a close vote either way would be the worst result, a close yes win leaves the door open for a revived no campaign to try to get the decision reversed, or a future no leaning government to try to rejoin the union. I'll take a yes win by one vote if I have to but I'd much rather win by a big margin.
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If it's a "yes" even by one vote …….. then IMHO it is all over and "thank God" will be the cry from many ……………. one side of me hopes it is a "yes" to end it once and for all ………………. the other side of me thinks "no" as it will really be a "bugger" to sort out if it is a "yes" - and we, the Scots and anyone else just do not need it ……. we should be working to "come together" not move apart ……… it really is a waste of productive energy for all concerned.
We do not need Politicians like Alex Salmon, (do not get me wrong, I am not saying that we need Politicians like Milliband and Cameron)

I expect a "yes" and what a relief that will be

Can such a change ever be practically reversed once it has been fully implemented ….. hopefully they will start "driving on the right" to sort not once and for all…. does Alex drive ……. but the chauffeur can sort that for him anyway?
 
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If it's a YES - we'll witness silly flag waving followed by 18 months of bumbling politicians.

If it's a NO - we'll witness silly flag waving followed by 18 months of bumbling politicians.

Either way we're left the same apart from a freshly divided Scotland which is bad.[/QUOTE]
 
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dinners said:
If it's a YES - we'll witness silly flag waving followed by 18 months of bumbling politicians.

If it's a NO - we'll witness silly flag waving followed by 18 months of bumbling politicians.

Either way we're left the same apart from a freshly divided Scotland.
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Yes but they are going to waste a lot of real money if it is a yes ……… just not "cost effective"

but let them "bugger off" - I am really sick of seeing Alex S on TV
 
BillN_33 said:
Yes but they are going to waste a lot of real money if it is a yes ……… just not "cost effective"

but let them "bugger off" - I am really sick of seeing Alex S on TV
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Much of the 'Yes' is blind Patriotism.

From the heart - not the head.

Can't blame him as the audience is there and easy but it's what Salmond does sadly.
 
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I expect there to be significant government developments soon in an attempt to obtain a strong No vote. Dave boy will not want to be tarred with the reputation that he was the prime minister that lost the union (even if the actual cause was mostly Blair through creating a misconceived Scottish Parliament that has not worked as expected) because he would be stuck with that black mark for the rest of his life. Despite him saying he would not resign if there was a Yes vote (politicians always say they will not resign if X happens) it would prove the end of his career PDQ.
 
Whichever way the vote goes I hope that folk see it's not just about a few whinging Scots. I actually got my figures a bit wrong earlier, going by the Yougov poll results about 1.75 million are currently yes voters out of a total voter base of about 4.1 million (assuming 10% don't knows).
 
dinners said:
Much of the 'Yes' is blind Patriotism.

From the heart - not the head.

Can't blame him as the audience is there and easy but it's what Salmond does sadly.
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That's incredibly insulting to yes voters, comes from the same sort of mindset that conceived #patronisingBTwoman.

Too wee, too poor, too stupid.
 
Steep said:
That's incredibly insulting to yes voters, comes from the same sort of mindset that conceived #patronisingBTwoman.

Too wee, too poor, too stupid.
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all I want to know is are there any plans to "drive on the right" or to change the sign posts to metric ……… or you could do what the Irish do, (Eire), drive on the left, have the speedo in kms and all the sign posts in kilometres … keeps everyone happy

a Yes vote would be really exciting ………… lots of changes … but I live in France anyway!!!!

I really cannot take it seriously anymore … I have just see Alex Salmons grinning face too much on TV
 
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I think there might be more important things to worry about than what side of the road we'd drive on and no reason to change other than to p*** off the neighbours, which we would never do.
 
Actually I knew that but thanks for the info ;)
 
dinners said:
Much of the 'Yes' is blind Patriotism.

From the heart - not the head.

Can't blame him as the audience is there and easy but it's what Salmond does sadly.
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Steep said:
That's incredibly insulting to yes voters, comes from the same sort of mindset that conceived #patronisingBTwoman.

Too wee, too poor, too stupid.
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You're clearly 'Yes' and have obviously researched the things that matter. That's good.

Much of what you post is researched and informative. That's good.

In your quest to convince the world and his wife that 'Yes' is right - you must surely have stumbled upon an equal amount of unfactual information which you don't post because it doesn't promote your own personal view. That's obvious.

You've put so many good points across as to why you personally think we (the people of Scotland) will be better off with independence. That's good.

But if you honestly think the 'Yes' campaign aren't milking Patriotism - your surely blinded and not one of the 'maybe' folk they're trying to persuade.
 
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Phil the only people who continuously tout their patriotism are no campaigners. I'm a Proud Scot but...

It's as if they feel they're nationality as Scots is somehow being stolen when it's really being offered to them for real instead of just in words.
 
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Steep said:
Phil the only people who continuously tout their patriotism are no campaigners. I'm a Proud Scot but...

It's as if they feel they're nationality as Scots is somehow being stolen when it's really being offered to them for real instead of just in words.
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Hmm

As father of 4 I'm noticing that this referendum is bringing up a lot of anti English / uk feeling which amongst young people has no place and was on the decline.

I love Scotland but I feel the referendum is dividing us.

It's tit for tat as we have an important decision to make but I feel Salmond and the SNP's methods are stirring up a lot of bile which will rumble on regardless of the outcome.
 
dinners said:
Hmm

As father of 4 I'm noticing that this referendum is bringing up a lot of anti English / uk feeling which amongst young people has no place and was on the decline.

I love Scotland but I feel the referendum is dividing us.

It's tit for tat as we have an important decision to make but I feel Salmond and the SNP's methods are stirring up a lot of bile which will rumble on regardless of the outcome.
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That about describes my take on it, too.
 
Phil, bile is generally a product of having a belief but no faith in it. It's not stirred up by anyone but the person or persons suffering from it.

Could you point me towards something that the SNP have produced that you think has done this?

/edit question applies to Doug as well then.
 
I think I've been on this forum long enough to rule that out.
 
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Then it's just another typical 'no' camp style scare story. Make some statement that shows the opposite side in a bad light and walk away when asked to back it up.
 
Steep said:
Then it's just another typical 'no' camp style scare story. Make some statement that shows the opposite side in a bad light and walk away when asked to back it up.
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What scare story ?

Back what up ?

I'm not here to campaign or try to influence people.

What I said was the referendum (driven by SNP) has resulted in a lot of ill feeling and unwanted division.
 
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dinners said:
What scare story ?

Back what up ?

I'm not here to campaign or try to influence people.

What I said was the referendum (driven by SNP) has resulted in a lot of ill feeling and unwanted division.
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dinners said:
It's tit for tat as we have an important decision to make but I feel Salmond and the SNP's methods are stirring up a lot of bile which will rumble on regardless of the outcome.
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Back that up ^ I asked you to show me an example
 
dinners said:
The referendum
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That's it, it is an SNP driven referendum where people are are being fooled by the hype into thinking that if Scotland becomes independent we will all be better off. Hugh, you may think we will be better off (and I do believe that you sincerely hold that view, but you would still opt for independence if we were not). I don't think we will be better off and could be worse off. I also believe that to undergo the changes that independence would bring we would need to be massively better off to justify what is unfolding, i.e. a nation divided due to a devisive project.

There is another aspect that leaves a sour taste. You say the union is broken (I don't BTW) and your solution is to get out of it. Many folk see that as jumping ship. Not a nice thing to do to a partner with whom we have had to stand shoulder to shoulder in dire times when our survival was at stake. That aspect alone makes an independence campaign a no no for me. Sorry, Hugh, this referendum is all wrong in my view.
The way it is being executed could be debated forever. It is the fact the referendum is happening at all that is the main problem.
 
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A great shame …….. but that's life

better off?? - how do you define that

anyway let them get on with it ……. it will be sad to see either side celebrate (victory)
 
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arclight said:
That's it, it is an SNP driven referendum where people are are being fooled by the hype into thinking that if Scotland becomes independent we will all be better off. Hugh, you may think we will be better off (and I do believe that you sincerely hold that view, but you would still opt for independence if we were not). I don't think we will be better off and could be worse off. I also believe that to undergo the changes that independence would bring we would need to be massively better off to justify what is unfolding, i.e. a nation divided due to a devisive project.

There is another aspect that leaves a sour taste. You say the union is broken (I don't BTW) and your solution is to get out of it. Many folk see that as jumping ship. Not a nice thing to do to a partner with whom we have had to stand shoulder to shoulder in dire times when our survival was at stake. That aspect alone makes an independence campaign a no no for me. Sorry, Hugh, this referendum is all wrong in my view.
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Well a couple of points in response, while yes it is the SNP who started the ball rolling they wouldn't have (I believe) quite so soon if they had not been pressured into it by the opposition parties. To say that the referendum is being driven by the SNP is to show a complete misunderstanding of the situation, if anything it's the other way round, the SNP were as shocked as anyone else at the upswelling of support that the idea of independence has received from joe bloggs. What is driving the referendum is the (sorry for the tired cliche) grass roots effort from thousands upon thousands of ordinary people from all walks of life.

Whether others see us choosing independence as jumping ship or not is their concern, I feel confident in saying that had these other folk got off their asses and helped us to do something about the broken union there would be no jumping but the vast majority of Englandshire doesn't want to know, maybe if there was a Xfactor style tv program on politics that might do it. Faced with the apathy of the rUK and unable to change things ourselves, we choose to leave, which in itself could be the best thing for rUK, as Billy Bragg says, the kick up the ass they need.

I don't particularly blame those who don't see the problem because they aren't so much blind as blindfolded. How many people I wonder know about the Jarrow March to save the NHS? started out as meant to be 700 mothers but grew to be thousands of people marching from Jarrow to London to highlight the problems with the privatisation of the NHS in England, started on 16th of August and they reached London today, was it in the papers? don't think so, on TV news? don't think so, so it can't have happened right? No problem there then.

Nobody that I know in the yes camp expects iScotland to be all sweetness and light but your vision of devisiveness and Phil's bile simply don't exist outside of a few loud unrestrained individuals.
 
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