Another company profiteering from the coronavirus

DK602 said:
So ....... Who here actually believes that this won't happen?
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I've no doubt some will try to fiddle the system, but I doubt it will be on a large scale.
If it annoys you so much, and you know who they are, why not do the decent thing? :)
 
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DK602 said:
So ....... Who here actually believes that this won't happen?
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Don't think anyone is saying the system is perfect, every system is open to fraud but where you have businesses having to pay their staff and claiming it back from the government, it's very unlikely to be on any major scale, probably very much the opposite. Or do you think that all a business has todo is tell the government that they've furloughed staff and they'll just say "ok, here's a check"?


But you started of with these sentences

DK602 said:
I personally think it is ridiculous to get at least 80% of your pay for sitting at home doing sweet FA!

To claim 80% you should have to do at least 20 hrs of unpaid voluntary work (especially the self employed who are claiming the 80% because they have no work!) - there is plenty to be done!
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Are you saying no-one should get the 80% just in case someone gets it fraudulently?

Are you saying that those who are furloughed should not heed government advice and leave their homes to do voluntary work thus increasing the risk of spreading the virus?

Cockney said:
You haven't explained how your mates are getting this money.
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Yes, I'd like to know the answer to this. given that Doug has already said that the system isn't actually up and running yet, I'd love to know how they already seem to know how to defraud it.
 
Mikesphotaes said:
Greedy barstewards!
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BB are not milking the system anymore through Consort Healthcare - they've moved on to pastures new :)
They took enough over the 10 (or so) years they were involved.
Consort made £16M for 2018, if you look at the public accounts, through parking charges... (BB sold their interest in CH in Nov 2019)
 
Obviously the system isn't 'up & running' but aquantancies (not mates!) Have openly stated they will carry on working for cash then intend to make a claim. The number I have spoken too shows that this will be a lot more common place than what is being alluded to here.

There is lots of essential voluntary work available.

There is even essential voluntary work that can be done from home.
 
DK602 said:
Obviously the system isn't 'up & running' but aquantancies (not mates!) Have openly stated they will carry on working for cash then intend to make a claim. The number I have spoken too shows that this will be a lot more common place than what is being alluded to here.

There is lots of essential voluntary work available.

There is even essential voluntary work that can be done from home.
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How many?
Names?
Dates?
Details?

Seems like hearsay to me. Hardly common.
Most people are socially responsible, that's how things work.

Maybe you associate with the lower end of humanity?
 
kendo1 said:
How many?
Names?
Dates?
Details?

Seems like hearsay to me. Hardly common.
Most people are socially responsible, that's how things work.

Maybe you associate with the lower end of humanity?
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Maybe that's why the prisons, criminal justice system, police etc are all over run because most are sociably responsible?

I think fraud is a lot more prevelant than you would think.
 
DK602 said:
Maybe that's why the prisons, criminal justice system, police etc are all over run because most are sociably responsible?

I think fraud is a lot more prevelant than you would think.
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There are actually very few people in prison - especially compared with the US.
I would imagine there is quite a spread of different offences for which they are incarcerated - I doubt all of them are in for fraud or tax evasion. I would imagine very few compared with burglary etc.
Anyway, I just looked up the prison population figures for last year -83618 - considering the UK population is 67 million, give or take, that works out at less than 0.1%
So, also considering that fraud is not the main reason these people are in prison, I wouldn't say that fraud is more prevalent than one would think...
Edit, figures for 2018 show fraud accounted for around 3% of cases resulting in a prison sentence. So, 3% of 83618 which works out at 2508 people from a population of 66.4 million.
 
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DK602 said:
Never mind companies profiteering from the Coronavirus; there is a significant percentage of the UK workforce that is!

I personally think it is ridiculous to get at least 80% of your pay for sitting at home doing sweet FA!

To claim 80% you should have to do at least 20 hrs of unpaid voluntary work (especially the self employed who are claiming the 80% because they have no work!) - there is plenty to be done!

lets face it - this has become the ideal 'skivers charter' taking two weeks off then getting paid for nothing.
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Do you run your own business ?
 
Any chance of going back on topic please?
You are welcome, Doug, to start your own thread on how many people are currently fleecing the system.
 
kendo1 said:
BB are not milking the system anymore through Consort Healthcare - they've moved on to pastures new :)
They took enough over the 10 (or so) years they were involved.
Consort made £16M for 2018, if you look at the public accounts, through parking charges... (BB sold their interest in CH in Nov 2019)
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Where did you see it was Nov 2019?
The link I posted indicated 2015.
Not that it really matters, just curious.
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
Where did you see it was Nov 2019?
The link I posted indicated 2015.
Not that it really matters, just curious.
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I'd have to search again- the date mentioned was November 19th 2019

(I've been known to be wrong before :) )
 
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kendo1 said:
There are actually very few people in prison - especially compared with the US.
I would imagine there is quite a spread of different offences for which they are incarcerated - I doubt all of them are in for fraud or tax evasion. I would imagine very few compared with burglary etc.
Anyway, I just looked up the prison population figures for last year -83618 - considering the UK population is 67 million, give or take, that works out at less than 0.1%
So, also considering that fraud is not the main reason these people are in prison, I wouldn't say that fraud is more prevalent than one would think...
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Not quite the nice society you think it is?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-44207104

Agree most won't be for fraud but alot will be for 'honesty' type offences.

Anyway - enough on this - I'll let you carry on with criticising companies.
 
DK602 said:
Obviously the system isn't 'up & running' but aquantancies (not mates!) Have openly stated they will carry on working for cash then intend to make a claim. The number I have spoken too shows that this will be a lot more common place than what is being alluded to here.

There is lots of essential voluntary work available.

There is even essential voluntary work that can be done from home.
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So these people defrauding the system have earned precisely nothing so far.
 
DK602 said:
Because they are people I know personally.

Can you tell me how you have been furloughed?

What proof is there?

A business can just say they have furloughed staff but the staff could still be working.
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I suspect they will have some measures in place to help identify fraud, but they will need to find a balance between effective fraud detection whilst not making it too restrictive.

With regard to fraudulently claiming that staff are furloughed when they are in fact working, for PAYE employees I suspect that HMRC will probably use RTI submissions to cross compare and to pull off this fraud the employees would have to agree to work for 80% of their wages, or have the difference made up via cash in order to be less detectable.

In my opinion highly unlikely for any company of any reasonable size because the employees would have to be part of the fraud and this would also leave the company very vulnerable against these employees and any potential demands etc.

But, as wages can typically be a very expensive cost to any company, I'm quite sure there will be some fraud. A further area of fraud would be to put a maximum cap of £2,500 claim in for low paid workers. Because of the RTI system the employer would have to front and pay this money to the employee and then get the difference back off them.

But again in my opinion highly unlikely for any company of even moderate size and probably only a small number of micro companies may try this.

Self Employed possibly even harder to submit a fair claim as it goes by previous SA submissions. Those currently having a bad year may come out better off but those having an excellent year will lose out somewhat. However, it is probably easier for a self employed worker to work whilst claiming they are furloughed.

However, of all the employees, companies and fraudsters there will only be one true winner in my view and and usual it will be the banks.

Two things are for certain in my opinion. Firstly, the Government isn't going to be able to sustain this and I doubt the end date of 31/05 will be extended. Perhaps at the most they may extend it for vulnerable people only.

Secondly, we are all going to pay for this afterwards one way or another. So the sooner this ends the better for a multitude of reasons.
 
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DK602 said:
Have you received any written proof or any form of contract from your employer?

Where has it been recorded?

There is no portal available untill later this month for employers to claim the money back.

I think you may be a bit trusting in human nature TBH.
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Yes, I and all of my furloughed colleagues have a letter from our managing director clearly laying out the terms of our furlough - stay at home and don't do any work until we tell you to come back into the office. Previous to that I was working from home as a distancing measure (I normally work in an office). I believe these letters are required as part of the compny's claim for the government contribution.

A slight difference than other companies that I know of is that my employer has guaranteed 80% of my salary even if the government doesn't accept the company's claim.

Personally, I would much rather be working than sat at home.
 
Bristolian said:
Yes, I and all of my furloughed colleagues have a letter from our managing director clearly laying out the terms of our furlough - stay at home and don't do any work until we tell you to come back into the office. Previous to that I was working from home as a distancing measure (I normally work in an office). I believe these letters are required as part of the compny's claim for the government contribution.

A slight difference than other companies that I know of is that my employer has guaranteed 80% of my salary even if the government doesn't accept the company's claim.

Personally, I would much rather be working than sat at home.
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This is exactly my experience. I was already working from home for a couple of weeks before the lockdown.My employers are topping up anyones 80% that is over the £2.5k (not that that applies to me)
 
I believe the letters are primarily for employment law reasons to keep things contractually sound. But certainly no harm having them just in case for HMRC.
 
So this is what came from Sykes...

sykes.jpg
They are stating that they will ask the owner for a refund, but it's up to them if they do or don't. However, the owner has stated that they have agreed to a refund, but it seems that Sykes won't pass it through...
 
According to the BBC an NHS trust has been told it would have to pay almost £10,000 a month to provide patients with free phone calls during the pandemic. The company responsible was awarded the contract to provide bedside phones and TV services to many NHS Trusts across England......... nice to see everyone is rallying round ..........

An example of their charges for patients:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52128047
 
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gman said:
I suspect they will have some measures in place to help identify fraud, but they will need to find a balance between effective fraud detection whilst not making it too restrictive.

With regard to fraudulently claiming that staff are furloughed when they are in fact working, for PAYE employees I suspect that HMRC will probably use RTI submissions to cross compare and to pull off this fraud the employees would have to agree to work for 80% of their wages, or have the difference made up via cash in order to be less detectable.

In my opinion highly unlikely for any company of any reasonable size because the employees would have to be part of the fraud and this would also leave the company very vulnerable against these employees and any potential demands etc.

But, as wages can typically be a very expensive cost to any company, I'm quite sure there will be some fraud. A further area of fraud would be to put a maximum cap of £2,500 claim in for low paid workers. Because of the RTI system the employer would have to front and pay this money to the employee and then get the difference back off them.

But again in my opinion highly unlikely for any company of even moderate size and probably only a small number of micro companies may try this.

Self Employed possibly even harder to submit a fair claim as it goes by previous SA submissions. Those currently having a bad year may come out better off but those having an excellent year will lose out somewhat. However, it is probably easier for a self employed worker to work whilst claiming they are furloughed.

However, of all the employees, companies and fraudsters there will only be one true winner in my view and and usual it will be the banks.

Two things are for certain in my opinion. Firstly, the Government isn't going to be able to sustain this and I doubt the end date of 31/05 will be extended. Perhaps at the most they may extend it for vulnerable people only.

Secondly, we are all going to pay for this afterwards one way or another. So the sooner this ends the better for a multitude of reasons.
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Our accountants have been told that ALL furloughed employees will receive a wage slip that states the breakdown, so the retention scheme bit is clearly marked, this will easily stop employers claiming for people who have not been told and their employer is trying to claim. HMRC will find it easy to detect fraud, the simple way is to look at earnings vs the furloughed staff, you cannot earn the same as a business if you furloughed 3/4 of your staff.

As for self employed, thay can work and claim at the same time, weird rule but that’s what it is.

For me the retention scheme has worked, we would have probably spent 30-40 grand over a couple or three months and then Folded the company and retired, with what was left in the business, which is considerable, but there comes a point where you cut and run. The retention scheme has added a min of 3 months to the time line and that in theory is around 5-6 months which should be enough to get things back on track, if not and the scheme is not extended then we will default to the retirement plan.
 
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Jelster said:
So this is what came from Sykes...

View attachment 274056
They are stating that they will ask the owner for a refund, but it's up to them if they do or don't. However, the owner has stated that they have agreed to a refund, but it seems that Sykes won't pass it through...
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If you paid by Credit card speak to them they will sort it by simply processing a charge back.
 
Studio488commercial said:
Our accountants have been told that ALL furloughed employees will receive a wage slip that states the breakdown, so the retention scheme bit is clearly marked, this will easily stop employers claiming for people who have not been told and their employer is trying to claim. HMRC will find it easy to detect fraud, the simple way is to look at earnings vs the furloughed staff, you cannot earn the same as a business if you furloughed 3/4 of your staff.

As for self employed, thay can work and claim at the same time, weird rule but that’s what it is.

For me the retention scheme has worked, we would have probably spent 30-40 grand over a couple or three months and then Folded the company and retired, with what was left in the business, which is considerable, but there comes a point where you cut and run. The retention scheme has added a min of 3 months to the time line and that in theory is around 5-6 months which should be enough to get things back on track, if not and the scheme is not extended then we will default to the retirement plan.
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I never came across anything saying Self Employed could work if claiming, although I never saw anything saying they couldn't either. It seemed to stress that if you lost earnings then you could claim, so I wonder if they'll be a burden of proof involved?

The main one I know for sure is Company Directors. They can furlough and work because of their responsibilities to the company and also ensuring statutory duties are fulfilled.
 
gman said:
I never came across anything saying Self Employed could work if claiming, although I never saw anything saying they couldn't either. It seemed to stress that if you lost earnings then you could claim, so I wonder if they'll be a burden of proof involved?

The main one I know for sure is Company Directors. They can furlough and work because of their responsibilities to the company and also ensuring statutory duties are fulfilled.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52053914
  • Unlike the employee scheme, the self-employed can continue to work as they receive support.
company directors are very limited to what they can do they cannot do anything that generates a revenue.
 
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Jelster said:
Sykes would only accept debit cards....
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7.6 We currently accept various forms of payment including via credit and debit card. Please refer to our Payment Methods page for details of the payment cards and other methods of payment that we currently accept.
 
Studio488commercial said:
7.6 We currently accept various forms of payment including via credit and debit card. Please refer to our Payment Methods page for details of the payment cards and other methods of payment that we currently accept.
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At the time, we were told they could only accept debit cards......

And if you still don't believe me....

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/sykes-holiday-cottages-pocketing-money-3992789

Just do a Google search, there's hundreds of complaints.

letter.jpg
 
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Well, on a positive note - the opposite theme of the thread, oops :) - with regards to NHS parking, it’s all been postponed for 3 months now, at work last week, all the parking barriers were up, al, parking payment suspended for both patients and us staff.

It’s very quiet at the hospital at the moment, all visitation has been stopped and were cancelling as many face to face appointments / consultations as possible. Interestingly though one of my staff commented the other day, the staff and patients you do see are more friendly - say hello, how you doing... going back to how it was when I started in the NHS 30+ years ago.

Stay safe everyone, follow the guidelines and look after those around you ...
 
Studio488commercial said:
company directors are very limited to what they can do they cannot do anything that generates a revenue.
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In theory, I'm not sure they're even allowed to think about what to do "after" while they're furloughed.
 
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