Battery Powered Outdoor Lighting

Garry Edwards said:
As Bob Dylan famously sang, The Times They Are A-Changin

In a few days from now there will be a flash trigger set available that will allow Nikon DSLR cameras to be used at a genuine 1/8000th sec - and no, this is not Hypersynch, HSS, tail end hack or anything else, it simply allows any Nikon DSLR camera to be used with any flash at any shutter speed.

This will produce effective flash durations of 1/8000th sec with the Safari Li-on, and come to that with any flash. And you don't need to understand how t.1 and t.5 flash durations are measured, you'll get exactly the same result with flash, in terms of action stopping potential, as you'll get with daylight at the same shutter speed.

The first batch will be for Nikon only. They will also be available for Canon soon.
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Is it secret squirrel or can you tell us who, what, when, where? :)
 
JonathanRyan said:
Yeah - tried those. They are pretty nice. Limited power though :(
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I don't think you have:) And they produce full power
So are they similar to Hyper sync on a speedlite, fast shutter speed but naff all power coming from the flash?
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No, totally different technology and no loss of power
Is it secret squirrel or can you tell us who, what, when, where?
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It won't be secret for much longer

They use all the power produced by the flash and captured by the shutter.
Obviously, if the flash duration is say 1/1000th and you set the shutter to 1/2000th then you will only use half of the power, so will need to open up by a stop, this becomes 2 stops at 1/4000th and 3 stops at 1/8000th - but if necessary you can increase the ISO to compensate. The dramatic reduction in the amount of ambient light entering the camera at very fast shutter speeds allows day to be turned into night if required, so increasing the ISO is the perfect solution - unlike existing technology, where ND filters often have to be used in bright lighting conditions, to effectively reduce the ISO
 
Garry Edwards said:
They use all the power produced by the flash and captured by the shutter.
Obviously, if the flash duration is say 1/1000th and you set the shutter to 1/2000th then you will only use half of the power, so will need to open up by a stop, this becomes 2 stops at 1/4000th and 3 stops at 1/8000th - but if necessary you can increase the ISO to compensate.
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Sorry. As you know all these number things baffle me. But doesn't that mean they have massively reduced power?

Yes the flash burns at full power (typically for 1 ms on the ones I've used) but if the shutter only opens for 1/8,000 it only captures a very small amount of that light. Effectively you have a powerful continuous light.

Which is kind of what I meant by "limited power".

Unless you have something different. I'd be fascinated to see how that would work.
 
Garry Edwards said:
They use all the power produced by the flash and captured by the shutter.
Obviously, if the flash duration is say 1/1000th and you set the shutter to 1/2000th then you will only use half of the power, so will need to open up by a stop, this becomes 2 stops at 1/4000th and 3 stops at 1/8000th - but if necessary you can increase the ISO to compensate. The dramatic reduction in the amount of ambient light entering the camera at very fast shutter speeds allows day to be turned into night if required, so increasing the ISO is the perfect solution - unlike existing technology, where ND filters often have to be used in bright lighting conditions, to effectively reduce the ISO
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If this is correct, that's a pretty big game changer.
 
2012-09-04_001.jpg


1/8,000s in sunlight with flash.
 
treeman said:
If this is correct, that's a pretty big game changer.
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It is correct, and it will be a massive game changer. There will no longer be any point in paying a lot of money for short flash durations, either in the studio or outdoors.
1/8,000s in sunlight with flash.
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Nice shot Jonathan, but that was taken at very close distance with extremely low power. What I'm talking about will light a motocross bike from several metres away
 
Garry Edwards said:
Nice shot Jonathan, but that was taken at very close distance with extremely low power. What I'm talking about will light a motocross bike from several metres away
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:)

That should be interesting. Somebody clever could do the maths on how much light you'd need at source to get a reasonable amount of light on a target several meters away at 1/8,000s.

My calculator says "a lot".
 
I'm really struggling to see how this will work, I must admit...


there's timing tricks, and there's.... simply not working or being accurate / consistent throughout the frame.

From a technical standpoint, I'm confused as to how it could possibly work. Certainly at anything higher than very minimum flash powers on all flashes other than the highest end profoto packs, the duration is wayyy longer than 1/8000th of a second, so whatever happens you'd not be getting the full flash.
 
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GFWilliams said:
Garry - I've bought into your current lighting system and therefore support you, but you really are s*** at responding to people on this forum sometimes. About time you stepped off your moral high ground and just posted pictures with exif you'd taken which prove your point instead of claiming things while not actually backing up...
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George, I've tried to provide accurate answers.
As for photos with exif data, good point. I'll do that as soon as I can. So far, I've tested it with a variety of different studio and portable flash heads to prove to myself that it works with everything, but the only actual demo photos I have are of a moving fan, taken using a budget flash head. I need to repeat that test with the Safari Li-on, which I will do.
Right now though I'm like a big kid with a new toy:LOL:


From a technical standpoint, I'm confused as to how it could possibly work. Certainly at anything higher than very minimum flash powers on all flashes other than the highest end profoto packs, the duration is wayyy longer than 1/8000th of a second, so whatever happens you'd not be getting the full flash.
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Well yes, the amount of flash power actually used is directly related to the combination of shutter speed and flash duration. So far my tests are limited to the D200, D300, D700 and D3. On my own cameras, increasing the ISO a stop or 2 to compensate for the difference between shutter speed and flash duration really is a non-problem.
 
Hmm, ok (though of course, that does negate the many of the benefits of using such a fast shutter speed).

Watching this one closely, albeit skeptically as to its actual real world applications (beyond water droplets)
 
What will the ramifications of this be for the current market?
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well yes, the amount of flash power actually used is directly related to the combination of shutter speed and flash duration. So far my tests are limited to the D200, D300, D700 and D3. On my own cameras, increasing the ISO a stop or 2 to compensate for the difference between shutter speed and flash duration really is a non-problem.
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Ah ok, so the new trigger is more about getting shorter durations as opposed to better ability to over power the sun?
 
Steve T said:
What will the ramifications of this be for the current market?
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Nobody knows. Somewhere between "some" and "a lot". My guess is that a stand alone trigger like this will be all the rage for a short period and then a lot of people will decide they want a new toy. That's pretty much true of most cheapish camera accessories ;)

treeman said:
Ah ok, so the new trigger is more about getting shorter durations as opposed to better ability to over power the sun?
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:)
 
OK, so you want proof...
First, my apologies to George, this is my old, mud splattered off roader, I haven't got a pretty car to photograph.

Second, I used a Safari Li-on and placed it 20' from the car, to demonstrate that it has enough power. I didn't measure the distance, just paced it out but it will be about right.

Third, all these shots are straight OOC except for re-sizing. I didn't even save them for web, all the exif data is there to see.
t_1.jpg

The shot above is with the camera set to shutter priority, 1/8000th second, f/2.8, no flash
t_3.jpg

The shot above is with flash, at the shutter speed at the normal max of 1/250th. You can see the contribution from the flash on the headlamp/bumper but the amount of ambient light at that shutter speed doesn't allow the sun to be overwhelmed by the flash at that distance. f/6.3
t_5.jpg

The shot above is at 1/4000th sec, f/5.6, note again the flash hitting the headlamp/bumper. The ambient light is now having much less effect on the areas not affected by the flash and the background is now underexposed by 2 stops. Going from f/6.3 to f/5.6 isn't exactly eating power...
t_6.jpg

The shot above is at 1/8000th sec, f/4 - a linear reduction as you would expect. The background and parts not lit by the flash are now 3 stops under.

I also repeated that test with the flash at only half the distance (approx), predictably the apertures are 2 stops smaller, what has really changed here is the effect on the parts not lit by the flash.

I think that these photos prove that it works and that it doesn't result in a large power loss. If anyone wants the full size images, just get in touch and I'll email them via Yousendit. But of course these photos don't prove that it freezes action. The photos below do.
8000_compare.jpg
 
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Couple of questions Gary
Are they hot shoe with PC sync connectors?
When are they going on sale? more importantly from my perspective when are the canon ones coming?
What price are they going to be?
And any shots of the triggers available yet? ;-)
and any further explanation on how they work?
 
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1. Yes
2. Not certain, but soon
2a. Get yourself a Nikon:exit: Probably a couple of weeks or so, don't know yet.
3. Haven't been told yet
4. Not yet
5. Not ever:)

But the main thing is, I've got mine!:naughty:
 
Garry Edwards said:
OK, so you want proof...
First, my apologies to George, this is my old, mud splattered off roader, I haven't got a pretty car to photograph.

Second, I used a Safari Li-on and placed it 20' from the car, to demonstrate that it has enough power. I didn't measure the distance, just paced it out but it will be about right..................................
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Garry, I'm just trying to get my head around this, but I just don't understand your images.

I've been up since 3am this morning so I appreciate I may not be functioning as normal but, If no.1 is shot at 1/8000th at f2.8

Then in No.2, I don't understand how the background looks roughly the same exposure when you've dropped your shutter speed by 5 stops and your aperture by only 2 1/2 stops?

And in the final shot at 1/8000th again but at f4.0 surely that means the background is only 1 stop under from your base exposure of f2.8 at 1/8000th, not 3 stops?
 
Garry, the kind of miracle machine you're appear to be suggesting is not possible. That would require a completely new design of camera shutter, and no trigger can change that.

I would respectfully suggest this is some variation of the tail-sync hack. Certainly looks like it from your middle fan shot (clearly brighter at the bottom).
 
treeman said:
Garry, I'm just trying to get my head around this, but I just don't understand your images.

I've been up since 3am this morning so I appreciate I may not be functioning as normal but, If no.1 is shot at 1/8000th at f2.8

Then in No.2, I don't understand how the background looks roughly the same exposure when you've dropped your shutter speed by 5 stops and your aperture by only 2 1/2 stops?

And in the final shot at 1/8000th again but at f4.0 surely that means the background is only 1 stop under from your base exposure of f2.8 at 1/8000th, not 3 stops?
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The first shot is a control shot, no flash, the camera decided that an acceptable exposure at 1/8000th was f/2.8

2nd shot - I take your point but the exif data proves that it's right. Maybe the light changed between those 2 shots. The loss of lighting power between the shots at 1/4000th and 1/8000th are exactly linear, making it even more likely that the light changed after the first shot.

Garry, the kind of miracle machine you're appear to be suggesting is not possible. That would require a completely new design of camera shutter, and no trigger can change that.

I would respectfully suggest this is some variation of the tail-sync hack. Certainly looks like it from your middle fan shot (clearly brighter at the bottom).
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Richard, with respect you should keep an open mind until the Canon version is available, as I'm kind of relying on you to be the first beta tester (I don't know anyone else who both uses Canon and who can be relied upon to test thoroughly and impartially):) If you then find that you're right, you can announce it on this forum.

Edit: You'll always get some variation with a subject like this, because of the shape of the fan blades and the fact that it's (virtually) impossible to get the blades in exactly the same position for every shot, even taking a dozen or so shots at each shutter speed . Therefore the light is reflecting off at different angles and so is affected by cosine law. I have control shots taken with continuous lighting and some of those are showing (apparent) uneven exposure, clearly because of this. If you like, I'll post them
 
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Garry Edwards said:
<snip>

Richard, with respect you should keep an open mind until the Canon version is available, as I'm kind of relying on you to be the first beta tester (I don't know anyone else who both uses Canon and who can be relied upon to test thoroughly and impartially):) If you then find that you're right, you can announce it on this forum.
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Thanks Garry, that's very kind. Always happy to look at new stuff :)

My mind is open, but you say this is a trigger that will work with any flash, eg Li-on? Then all it can do it adjust the timing of the firing signal.

Given that we're stuck with focal plane shutters then to work at high speeds like 1/2000sec, 1/4000sec etc it can only be a variation on the tail-sync hack. Nothing else is possible.

I can see that if a trigger is able to adjust the timing to optimise the result you get with that (as some Pocket Wizards can, eg Mini/Flex and also Multimax) we could see improvements but that would also vary according to the type of flash used, eg long duration like the Li-on would work better. But there would still be a huge loss of effective power at higher speeds.

I just don't see any possibility of this being a game-changer. For that to happen, we need a new type of camera shutter, probably an advanced form of electronic switching shutter (as we have seen before, eg Nikon D70). But until then, the most likely prospect seems to lie with IGBT flash technology, not any form of trigger.

BTW, I also have a Nikon D700 sitting here ;)
 
BTW, I also have a Nikon D700 sitting here
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Ah, I didn't know that you had a proper camera, in that case I may be able to let you have my set for the Nikon earlier, then you can see for yourself whether it really is a game changer or whether it's just another bodge.

I have some more testing to do first, because although it works with every flash head I want to do some much more detailed testing, and try to push the limits on a very short duration IGBT flash at low power settings (yes, I've got one of those too) and I also want to carry out some more detailed tests on some other equipment that has extremely short flash durations.

I take it you accept my point about apparently uneven illumination being caused by different angles of reflection from different positions of fan blades? If not, I can post the images that demonstrate it.

The fact that there isn't a huge loss of effective power at very short flash durations does indicate that there may be a technology that's completely new...
But until then, the most likely prospect seems to lie with IGBT flash technology, not any form of trigger.
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IGBT technology is pretty useful, but it has inherent bugs that limit the maximum rated power, and which then effectively cut that power in half, so it's not quite there yet - or at least, not on the ones that are currently on sale.
 
Sorry to say Garry that I'm unconvinced of anything so far! The problem is the focal plane shutter. Your IGBT tests at lower power settings should nail it.
 
Will this trigger be available for Sony or work with a hot-shoe adaptor, or is there more to it than that?
 
jonesy_ni said:
Will this trigger be available for Sony or work with a hot-shoe adaptor, or is there more to it than that?
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Sorry, but no. It won't work with a hotshoe adapter. It could probably be done as a specific trigger for your camera, but the development cost involved, for a customer base that is potentially pretty small, would make it impossible.

Because of these costs, I very much doubt whether it will ever be available for anything other than Canon or Nikon.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Sorry, but no. It won't work with a hotshoe adapter. It could probably be done as a specific trigger for your camera, but the development cost involved, for a customer base that is potentially pretty small, would make it impossible.

Because of these costs, I very much doubt whether it will ever be available for anything other than Canon or Nikon.
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Even if I buy 2? :)

Will watch this with interest anyway
 
It would make more sense to start a new thread about these wonderful new flash triggers than tag it on to a thread entitled Battery Powered Outdoor Lighting.

To answer the OP if like me you just wanted to have a dabble with outdoor flash with a bit more power than a Speedlite or two then I can thoroughly recommend the Calumet Genesis 300B + battery pack as linked to in reply #11 of this thread. At just £330 it's very affordable, nicely made & well featured. Just add the Phottix Strato II wireless trigger at £69 to give a complete working setup for outdoor off camera flash for only £399.
 
HoppyUK said:
Sorry to say Garry that I'm unconvinced of anything so far! The problem is the focal plane shutter. Your IGBT tests at lower power settings should nail it.
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I know Garry is aware of all this, but for the benefit of others following the thread, here's a slow-mo video of a Canon 5D2 shutter working at 1/200sec (max x-sync speed) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfSW4eW25g Towards the end of the clip it is slowed down even further, and note the timings shown. Give or take a couple of milliseconds, this is typical of all focal plane shutters.

It clearly shows that the shutter curtains take about 4ms (1/250sec) to travel down the frame. At speeds above max x-sync, the gap between the first and second curtains travelling is reduced to give effectively much shorter exposures, but this means that at no time is the whole of the sensor uncovered at any one moment, so if a flash is fired at speeds above 1/200sec, you get a dark unexposed band at the bottom of the image.

This band gets progressively deeper as shutter speeds increase, doubling with every stop. At 1/500sec, only about 50% of the frame will be exposed, at 1/1000sec that's down to 25%, at 1/2000sec 12% and so on. At 1/8000sec, it's down to a tiny slit less that 1mm wide.

So it is clear from this that for flash to expose the whole frame, it must either a) be fired at 1/200sec or longer speed, or b) be configured to burn at an even brightness for at least 4ms while the shutter travels down over the image, regardless of shutter speed.

This latter trick is how high speed sync works with IGBT-type hot-shoe guns - by pulsing the flash extremely rapidly (like 20,000 times per second, or thereabouts) it effectively becomes continuous light for that very brief period. And it works just great, but because the power of the gun is now spread over a much longer period, the brightness is greatly reduced and effective exposures are hit hard, and progressively harder still as shutter speeds rise.

Conventional studio-type flash heads work in a very different way and can't do HSS. However, when they're triggered the light output rises very rapidly to a peak, but then fades much more slowly. It's this fading part of the flash output that is known as the 'tail' and by synching the shutter so that it opens just after the flash has peaked, the tail usually lasts long enough for the shutter to complete it's 4ms cycle so you can use any shutter speed right up to 1/8000sec.

However, exposure suffers in the same way as HSS, ie dramatically reduced and progressively reducing as shutter speeds rise. 'Tail-sync' also suffers from uneven exposure down the frame as the flash gradually fades away, and you can also get a slight colour shift top to bottom as well.

Garry's device can do nothing about these problems. All a trigger can do is optimise the exact timing of the firing signal to make best use of the tail. And used with something like the Safari Li-on that has a relatively long and flat tail, plus a very high output to start with so it can afford to lose some effective exposure and still be usable, it might just be a handy tool for some applications. But it cannot overcome the inherant drawbacks imposed by the camera's focal plane shutter.
 
Hi all,

Yes, the Lighting Rumours Portable Power Guide is unforgivably out of date. I'm going to do a big editing sesh soon, so if you PM me any products you think are missing, I'll be sure that they are added to the table!

- David
 
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