Bird in flight /wildlife

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#1
Been having a crack at bif /wildlife photography recently with very mediocre results using my olympus omd em1 mk1 and 40-150 2.8 pro.
In fact iv got to be honest iv got nothing I'm prepared to show let alone print.
Which as usual has led me to thinking "ooh I'm crap at this what can I buy to make me great at it"
So I suppose what I'm trying to find out is what are good photographers using for this most frustraighting side of photography?

I'm currantly running 3routes through my mind
1) upgrade em1 to em1x (super duper expensive) because I have mft lenses
2) nikon d7200/Canon 7dmk2 and ruin my savings for lenses ( no real idea of what great bif lenses are)

3) grow up and realise I'll never be much use at things

I have access to a nikon d7100 as my son has one also if the d500 is the absolute best then a used one could make the shortlist but only if its the absolute must have for a while yet to come.
Please feel free to be totally honest, but I will say that I understand practice makes perfect.
 
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#2
Don’t think you can go far wrong with a D500 and 200-500 Nikon,some excellent shots posted on here from this combination.
There’s a 200-500 in the classified ads.
 
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#3
Iv seen that my thinking was along the lines of buy a cheaper body get the great lenses and upgrade the body a bit later on but I think deep down I know there is only one way to do bif photography
And I'm sure that kit is brilliant for a load of other uses as well.
Any one have any opinions on third party equivalent options to the 200-500?
 
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#4
You should post in the Olympus thread, I know that a few in there use this combination for sports and wildlife. It's very possible to get birds in flight with the Em1 II, maybe you just need some tips on technique. You could try another set up, the D500 is supposed to be excellent for this purpose, but what if you find the same after buying it?
 
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#5
You can do BIF with m4/3 but its not as easy as it is with a DSLR and often not as good, the EM1MK11 and panasonic100-400 would get you going but for less money you could get a Nikon D7200 and one of the 150-600s

Some EM1MK11 samples

p1010096_43922661691_o.jpg

p5210039_42206740882_o.jpg

p6130091_42772256781_o.jpg
 
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#6
The EM1 isn’t great for BIF tbh, the EM1-II is miles better. In fact I’m getter better results and performance with the EM1-II and Panny 100-400mm combo than I did with the D750 and D850 with Tamron 150-600mm :eek:
 
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#8
I have the luxury of both items a panasonic g80 and leica 100-400 and a Nikon d7200 plus sigma 150-600 C , BOTH are good for b.i.f without entering into the realms of silly money , with both and that really goes for any camera lens Combo you really have to learn the craft .. you just cant suddenly pick up a camera and lens and expect to to become a top flight photographer . both those combos mentioned above will do the job and theres more than a few examples on here of my work or find one of my pics and link back to my Flickr stream there are several thousand on there ..
the sigma lens on a crop factor body will give a bit more reach the leica lens will give you extreme close ups .. there is no one solution fits all ... my advise to any one starting up in bird in flight photography is buy a couple of loaves go find a open bit of land where you won't get disturbed and break up a few slices and throw them out it usually takes about 5 minutes for gulls to be flying overhead .. take a few hundred shots till your happy with your results .. do this every day for a week and it will all fall into place
 
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#9
I have the luxury of both items a panasonic g80 and leica 100-400 and a Nikon d7200 plus sigma 150-600 C , BOTH are good for b.i.f without entering into the realms of silly money , with both and that really goes for any camera lens Combo you really have to learn the craft .. you just cant suddenly pick up a camera and lens and expect to to become a top flight photographer . both those combos mentioned above will do the job and theres more than a few examples on here of my work or find one of my pics and link back to my Flickr stream there are several thousand on there ..
the sigma lens on a crop factor body will give a bit more reach the leica lens will give you extreme close ups .. there is no one solution fits all ... my advise to any one starting up in bird in flight photography is buy a couple of loaves go find a open bit of land where you won't get disturbed and break up a few slices and throw them out it usually takes about 5 minutes for gulls to be flying overhead .. take a few hundred shots till your happy with your results .. do this every day for a week and it will all fall into place
Excellent advice right there
 
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#10
Now mr black fox that is excellent advice , I will definitely give that a go , I suppose I’ve got this romantic notion of going out braving the elements and getting amazing images but obviously nobody does that day one .
I am however very concerned that my em1mk1 isn’t really fast or accurate enough , more so after having just gone out and shot 2-300 pictures of my dogs and I maybe have 3-5 that I would consider acceptable.
I can’t accept that it’s unfamiliarity with my equipment because I’ve owned it for years and used it .
I suppose my real worry is do I put more money into mft or go back to a crop DSLR .
I don’t care about size and weight though .
 
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#11
I'm an idiot btw, my post earlier was based on me thinking you had the Em1 mkII, I should stop skim reading! The mkII is supposedly much, much better, just going on the reports from the guys that have used both. I do think that technique > whatever camera though. I mean, look at wildlife images from photographers who shot with much slower AF bodies way back, they learned to work with and get the best from what they had on hand. It's a very tricky genre, one I struck off my list long ago, don't need the stress :D I find macro another area that is very under-rated in terms of difficulty. You could spend an hour and 100+ shots trying to get your ideal close up of a bug say, and still come away with mediocre at best
 
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#12
Now mr black fox that is excellent advice , I will definitely give that a go , I suppose I’ve got this romantic notion of going out braving the elements and getting amazing images but obviously nobody does that day one .
I am however very concerned that my em1mk1 isn’t really fast or accurate enough , more so after having just gone out and shot 2-300 pictures of my dogs and I maybe have 3-5 that I would consider acceptable.
I can’t accept that it’s unfamiliarity with my equipment because I’ve owned it for years and used it .
I suppose my real worry is do I put more money into mft or go back to a crop DSLR .
I don’t care about size and weight though .
I found the EM1 pretty infuriating with relatively static wildlife let alone BIF, although that was with the 100-300mm which doesn’t have the best AF either.
 
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#13
I found the EM1 pretty infuriating with relatively static wildlife let alone BIF, although that was with the 100-300mm which doesn’t have the best AF either.
This is what I’m saying , I’m not saying these are bad cameras or that I don’t love it because i do but i do feel a bit hamstrung with it , maybe a refresh to Nikon will give me the flexibility i desire ,
 
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#14
But then there is the unknown em1x which means i can keep my small lenses ( that i love ) get loads of reach for less back ache but it costs a lot and although I know its better than me and what I already have is it really that good , in terms of autofocus . Hhhmmm .
What are peoples opinion of renting equipment with a view to buying ?
 
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#15
This is what I’m saying , I’m not saying these are bad cameras or that I don’t love it because i do but i do feel a bit hamstrung with it , maybe a refresh to Nikon will give me the flexibility i desire ,
But then there is the unknown em1x which means i can keep my small lenses ( that i love ) get loads of reach for less back ache but it costs a lot and although I know its better than me and what I already have is it really that good , in terms of autofocus . Hhhmmm .
What are peoples opinion of renting equipment with a view to buying ?
As I said, upgrading to the EM1-II (or EM1x) should give you the performance you need. Yes there will be better combos, but the Olympus with the right lenses are more than adequate. The best combo I’ve used is the D850 with 70-200mm f2.8 VRII, but then next is the EM1-II with Panny 100-400mm.
 
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#16
As I said, upgrading to the EM1-II (or EM1x) should give you the performance you need. Yes there will be better combos, but the Olympus with the right lenses are more than adequate. The best combo I’ve used is the D850 with 70-200mm f2.8 VRII, but then next is the EM1-II with Panny 100-400mm.
I get how amazing the d850 is but it’s not for me I don’t need full frame or those file sizes , and now the em1x is available the only reason I’d buy a em1mk2 is because I can’t afford a x . Then there is the lenses .....
 
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#17
I get how amazing the d850 is but it’s not for me I don’t need full frame or those file sizes , and now the em1x is available the only reason I’d buy a em1mk2 is because I can’t afford a x . Then there is the lenses .....
Sorry, I wasn’t suggesting the D850 as an option, just trying to show that the Olympus with the right lens(es) isn’t far off. I’ve not tried the EM1x, but obviously this is even closer and I would expect the EM1-III to at least match it. Basically what I’m saying is that any format is now good enough for most scenarios (y)
 
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#18
D I know little of oly your gear or it's suitability to BIF. I'd always lean towards your skillset bringing you better images than gear ,with that caviat 150mm is on the short side. Wildlife is never going to be easy especially BIF jeffs right on hammering the muscle memory. The other side I'd point you towards is actually getting to know your chosen subjects even the duck in the park pond will give cool photo ops if you are there right place right time. Start with easier tamer birds...animals parkland deer(do becareful show them respect etc obviously).

Mate i'm very fortunate and use some of the best tools for action photography : they haven't made me any better as an image maker Sure they help. right tool for the job always does But the more time I spend with my subjects, the better my fieldcraft, is the better my chances of taking something I actually Iike. I still have to have that photographers skillset at the end though.

Damien the guys will cover the gear side so I thought I'd have a stab at the other bit. I get the feeling many of us feel we are crap at this, and sure, for demanding subjects the right tools are a massive asset,so we ponder that first . But one needs to make the best of the tools we each have. With 150 at the long end you'll need to think either small in frame animal scape types of image or be VERY close. Very close demands you knowing your subjects I feel many folks don't really understand the oppurtunities good fieldcraft gives one in wildlife. Put it this way your chances of a cool frame are much better if your subject isn't running away it's simple really no amount of reach will help in this situation.

All the luck do the gulls ;)

stu
 
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#19
D I know little of oly your gear or it's suitability to BIF. I'd always lean towards your skillset bringing you better images than gear ,with that caviat 150mm is on the short side. Wildlife is never going to be easy especially BIF jeffs right on hammering the muscle memory. The other side I'd point you towards is actually getting to know your chosen subjects even the duck in the park pond will give cool photo ops if you are there right place right time. Start with easier tamer birds...animals parkland deer(do becareful show them respect etc obviously).

Mate i'm very fortunate and use some of the best tools for action photography : they haven't made me any better as an image maker Sure they help. right tool for the job always does But the more time I spend with my subjects, the better my fieldcraft, is the better my chances of taking something I actually Iike. I still have to have that photographers skillset at the end though.

Damien the guys will cover the gear side so I thought I'd have a stab at the other bit. I get the feeling many of us feel we are crap at this, and sure, for demanding subjects the right tools are a massive asset,so we ponder that first . But one needs to make the best of the tools we each have. With 150 at the long end you'll need to think either small in frame animal scape types of image or be VERY close. Very close demands you knowing your subjects I feel many folks don't really understand the oppurtunities good fieldcraft gives one in wildlife. Put it this way your chances of a cool frame are much better if your subject isn't running away it's simple really no amount of reach will help in this situation.

All the luck do the gulls ;)

stu
Useful advice. For the record though 150mm on m4/3 gives the same reach/FOV as 300mm on FF. Granted 300mm still isn’t long for wildlife/BIF but OK if you can get relatively close.
 
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#20
Guys let me say thanks for the advice I do appreciate it
Im probably not explaining my self
The only lense I have with any reach is 150 (mft) so I know it's a bit silly of me to go try to take pictures of eagles soaring.
I'm spending a lot of time practicing trying to get good technical shots of my 2 dogs running about and iv got to admit it's severely frustraighting shooting 100s of images and finding between 1-5 to be in focus, I am more than willing to spend time and a certain amount of money achieving what I want but as always its how and where to do these things.
This is why I love forums because I can ask questions to people with much more experience and not have to go insane trying to get there with out help
 
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#21
But then there is the unknown em1x which means i can keep my small lenses ( that i love ) get loads of reach for less back ache but it costs a lot and although I know its better than me and what I already have is it really that good , in terms of autofocus . Hhhmmm .
What are peoples opinion of renting equipment with a view to buying ?
You can use your lens with the EM1ii which is great for shooting action/birds in flight. You could add the extender to to the 40-150 pro lens - it works really well. I would definitely not buy an EM1 mark 1 for BIF as I believe there is a massive difference in the capability of the two bodies, though I have never used one.

Olympus have the test and Wow scheme where you can borrow the equipment for free to try it out.

Here is a SOOC example (not cropped even) with Em1ii 40-150 pro + 1.4 extender - not a great day for light (or great photograph!), but you can see it was able to focus despite things in the background.
181016120637-BC167271.jpg
 
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#22
What is the iso performance like with the em1. 2?
Obviously I'm doing some Web reading and all I keep seeing is that "usable high iso" images are possible, what does this actually mean in this context please? I'm going to go back out side and remove the iso limit from my em1. 1 and shoot some "action" shots of my dogs to further see how I feel about my camera.
 
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#23
What is the iso performance like with the em1. 2?
Obviously I'm doing some Web reading and all I keep seeing is that "usable high iso" images are possible, what does this actually mean in this context please? I'm going to go back out side and remove the iso limit from my em1. 1 and shoot some "action" shots of my dogs to further see how I feel about my camera.
The above is ISO 640. It's definitely not as good as full frame, as you would expect, so it is a compromise - but it's lighter and smaller. Tesni Ward who photographs wildlife with Olympus gear said she doesn't go beyond ISO 3200

I'm lucky enough to have a choice. If I'm shooting a football match under floodlights, I use my FF camera, but if I'm going on a long walk and want to photograph birds I use my EM1ii. If the light is okay, I sometimes use the EM1ii with 40-150mm. The only problem is I tend to come back with too many shots from the Em1ii!

Here are a few just to demonstrate ISO.
1. SOOC EM1ii 40-150 + 1.4 ext at 70mm ISO 2500 1/1600s f/4
181016141814-BC167540.jpg
2. EM1ii 300mm f/4 ISO 3200 processed, but no noise reduction - terrible weather and light.. and not action. This was 1/500s
190305160831-BC055640.jpg

3. EM1ii 40-150 pro ISO 6400 processed and with noise reduction added
181016161500-BC167909.jpg
 
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#24
So I can see the "noise" but it doesn't make me feel like the photo (both of which I love by the way) is no good I'd be proud of both of those on my wall
If they were, shall we say worse for now could they be "de noised" sufficiently in light room to be printed at a reasonable size say a3 or a2?
I suppose what I'm asking is em1mk2 files do they clean up OK
Never having tried one I can't know this and also iv only ever took photos in what I'd call decent light
 
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#26
What is the iso performance like with the em1. 2?
Obviously I'm doing some Web reading and all I keep seeing is that "usable high iso" images are possible, what does this actually mean in this context please? I'm going to go back out side and remove the iso limit from my em1. 1 and shoot some "action" shots of my dogs to further see how I feel about my camera.
It's as you would expect, good but not as good as FF. These are 6400, with some NR in PP. Light was poor, so had to drop shutter to 1/250 and ISO was still 6400 :eek:


P2201220-Edit-2
by TDG-77, on Flickr

P2201277-Edit
by TDG-77, on Flickr

P2201980-Edit
by TDG-77, on Flickr
 
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#27
Very nice , a little development this afternoon , i had cause to go to see my son in his pit and decided to liberate the Nikon D7100 and have a crack with that .......HATE IT ....... I’m staying with mft so now I’m trying to see how i can sell a kidney to buy the em1x and panaleica 100-400 , ( when i say hate it I’m referring to ergonomics etc not its output which is great )
I’m seriously considering the Panasonic 100-300 that’s in the classifieds as a stop gap , any major reason I shouldn’t do that ?
 
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#28
Since moving to Fuji from Canon, I have really struggled with BIF work. I was never brilliant at it, but my old combo of a 7D2 & Siggy 150-600 Sport worked well. My X-T2 just doesn't have the same ability to capture moving subjects like my 7D2 did. I'm sure the X-T3 is where I need to go, but can't afford it yet.

There is also a lot to be said for good technique, which means a lot of practice. Jeff really hit the nail on the head, spend time getting it wrong until you get it right, but a good body with well set up AF-C really helps.
 
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#29
Just some thoughts ;)

AFAIK for BiF C-AF on the EM1.2 is as good as it gets but not with Tracking engaged (the new EM1X appears to have improved Tracking)..............but no idea if the Mk1 has Traacking and whether that is part of the setting you have been trying to use?

The 40-150mm Pro that you say you have is a fine lens including for BiF......................a longer lens will be of little help if your basic BiF cameracraft has yet to be improved (note ~ I do not say perfected ;) ) Please bear in mind that part of BiF technique is to hold the focus point on the bird..........both the 100-400 and the 100-300 that you mention at the long ends will (depending on the size of the bird) mean that you are needing to keep a lens with a very narrow angle of view on a fast moving & frame filling bird.

So, I think you have been some good pointers to what the EM1.2 will give you over the mk1. Therefore rather than going out and buying a longer lens to use with your mk1, which I think will only frustrate you, I suggest you try the Olympus WoW service and get both the EM1.2 (and the 300mm f4) and see how you can in the time you have to improve your technique ;)

PS an alternative ~ is to perhaps hire the camera (and lens?) from http://www.lensesforhire.co.uk/product/olympus-om-d-e-m1-mark-ii @StewartR is a member here and can advise as needed?
 
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#30
Very nice , a little development this afternoon , i had cause to go to see my son in his pit and decided to liberate the Nikon D7100 and have a crack with that .......HATE IT ....... I’m staying with mft so now I’m trying to see how i can sell a kidney to buy the em1x and panaleica 100-400 , ( when i say hate it I’m referring to ergonomics etc not its output which is great )
I’m seriously considering the Panasonic 100-300 that’s in the classifieds as a stop gap , any major reason I shouldn’t do that ?
The 100-300mm hunts a lot at the long end from my experience.
 
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#31
I will second the above, i think the version two is a bit better as it has the faster focus motor in it.
 
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#32
Since moving to Fuji from Canon, I have really struggled with BIF work. I was never brilliant at it, but my old combo of a 7D2 & Siggy 150-600 Sport worked well. My X-T2 just doesn't have the same ability to capture moving subjects like my 7D2 did. I'm sure the X-T3 is where I need to go, but can't afford it yet.

There is also a lot to be said for good technique, which means a lot of practice. Jeff really hit the nail on the head, spend time getting it wrong until you get it right, but a good body with well set up AF-C really helps.
I have the same problem with my XT2 and 100-400, just cannot get decent BIF's or anything which moves. I've tried every permutation in the tracking menu to no available. I came from Nikon D610+tamron 150-600 and do feel a bit frustrated. But on the positive side I do like the XT2 for all other types of photography and not forgetting it's much lighter to carry about.

If I could afford it I'd be tempted to get a D500+200-500 just for my trips to RSPB sites and the like.
 
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#33
But on the positive side I do like the XT2 for all other types of photography and not forgetting it's much lighter to carry about.

If I could afford it I'd be tempted to get a D500+200-500 just for my trips to RSPB sites and the like.
Once I had the T2 I just didn't use the Canon/Siggy set up, almost twice the weight. And if I did go for something bird specific, it would be a D850 with the 200-500. However, I'm sure the X-T3 will improve things no end.
 
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#34
My mk1 does have tracking but can't say if it's good (never used any before) I'm just sure a later body must be better.
Jelster how does the xt2/3 fair against the xh1?
 
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#35
Useful advice. For the record though 150mm on m4/3 gives the same reach/FOV as 300mm on FF. Granted 300mm still isn’t long for wildlife/BIF but OK if you can get relatively close.
why thank you kind Sir........ yup Damo is way way better off listening to you guys than moi re the camera stuff,:cool:I just bumble about in the mud. Thanks for the kindness. Close is good !!
 
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#36
why thank you kind Sir........ yup Damo is way way better off listening to you guys than moi re the camera stuff,:cool:I just bumble about in the mud. Thanks for the kindness. Close is good !!
No no Stuart advice on any aspect of this frustrating almost masochistic game is great advice
I'm going to buy a longer lense and keep trying
I have a better hit rate this afternoon against my whirlwind dogs than ever before so next chance I get ill be after a sharp in focus gull shot
I am however also looking towards the em1x for its focus capabities
Oh and that 300 f4 prime...... I only need the one kidney right?
 
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#37
So I can see the "noise" but it doesn't make me feel like the photo (both of which I love by the way) is no good I'd be proud of both of those on my wall
If they were, shall we say worse for now could they be "de noised" sufficiently in light room to be printed at a reasonable size say a3 or a2?
I suppose what I'm asking is em1mk2 files do they clean up OK
Never having tried one I can't know this and also iv only ever took photos in what I'd call decent light
Thank you. The third image I added (possibly after you viewed the post) has been processed.

I've used the C-Af with tracking on the EM1ii and it's great if you have a clear sky for birds or aerial kitesurfers. I think for a dog running on the beach I'd stick with C-Af and keeping the focus point on the subject myself. I'm not sure how much better the Em1x is, but it's bulkier and more expensive. My limitations with the EM1ii are purely down to me and not the camera.

The 300mm lens is great. It works with the extender too.
 
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#38
Jelster how does the xt2/3 fair against the xh1?
I'm not sure to be honest, I've never used an X-H1, but it is basically the same unit as the T2 but with IBIS. The T3 is meant to be much better (on par with a 7D2) for tracking moving subjects.
 
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#39
Give me a bit of time and I’ll post a few shots .. to prove that most of the posts here just don’t make sense ..

right first one Panasonic g80+ Leica 100-400 hand held
incoming
by jeff and jan cohen, on Flickr

next one panasonic g80 + vivitar 200mm f3.5 manual focus lens , plus k&f adaptor to convert to MFT ,plenty more in focus shots in that set to

manual focus no.2
by jeff and jan cohen, on Flickr

next panasonic g80 + plus panasonic 100-300mm mk1 lens handheld

lift off
by jeff and jan cohen, on Flickr


next Olympus omd10-mkii + plus leica 100-400

downbeat
by jeff and jan cohen, on Flickr


there are four shots there with MFT cameras and lens ranging from a top end to a 50 year old manual focus lens of birds in flight . in all honesty there is not much between them it all involves learning your equipment and techniques , I'm not showing off just trying to prove that it can be done . the g80 is slightly more advanced than the o.p's olympus but the 100-300 lens and the Olympus omd10 mk2 and the manual focus lens are all way below his current equipment .. also take into account that all these shots are handheld and I'm no spring chicken at 73 years young
 
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#40
Thank you. The third image I added (possibly after you viewed the post) has been processed.

I've used the C-Af with tracking on the EM1ii and it's great if you have a clear sky for birds or aerial kitesurfers. I think for a dog running on the beach I'd stick with C-Af and keeping the focus point on the subject myself. I'm not sure how much better the Em1x is, but it's bulkier and more expensive. My limitations with the EM1ii are purely down to me and not the camera.

The 300mm lens is great. It works with the extender too.
Ahh yes just seen the third image, looks plenty good enough for me.

May I just say that some of you guys must have rea tions that put a electrified cat to shame, some of those shots are of very little birds! I ind it quite difficult even seeing them let alone finding them at 3-4-5or600mm!
 
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