Buying a 'Grey' import camera body Yes or No?

should I buy an IMPORT camera body?

  • Yes

    Votes: 70 87.5%

  • No

    Votes: 10 12.5%
  • Total voters
    80
chuckles said:
Isn't that a contradiction?
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I expected it to be honest, though DR could have set it up to English language for me, but it only took a couple of minutes googling and a few more button presses. Just might be something the OP might want to consider before purchasing. Saved a small fortune though. Have had a few bits and bobs via grey market, without any issues (thankfully!)
 
big soft moose said:
Have you had to claim off warranty with any of them ? (honest question as warranty is generally then other issue mooted with greys)
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....I may have posted this information before but I bought a Canon L lens from HDEW and dropped it (my fault I'm embarrasssed to say) and so they were unable to repair it under warranty but they were extremely helpful and put me in direct contact with the Canon approved repair centre which would have been used in a warranty case. So the only difference was the payment for the repair - Subsequently paid for without question by my Home Insurance policy. I was kept regularly informed and the repair was turnaround including shipping both ways was 10 days.

By contrast, my Canon D-SLR body which I had bought from Park Cameras (not a 'grey' importer) also needed repair but I found Park's aftersales customer service to be lacking and consequently switched the body repair to HDEW's warranty repairer A.J.Johnstone up north in Glasgow.

However, I am not inclined to buy from other 'grey' importers. HDEW are based with premises in Surrey.
 
Hdew are distinctly the best of the grey bunch (IMO) I also used kerso back in wab days because he used to offer wab members a discount (this was in 05/06).

The main issue with warranty is when your warranty is with the dealer and they go pop (per big norman and others) - but that said how often does anyone need a warranty repair on modern camera gear anyway, so you pay your money and take your choice
 
big soft moose said:
Have you had to claim off warranty with any of them ? (honest question as warranty is generally then other issue mooted with greys)
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I had a Canon S100 P&S of Digital rev that developed a fault, they told me to send it to Canon UK they sorted it all out for me and gave me a full brand new replacement camera.
 
Been reading through some but not all the comments here.
So sorry if this has been covered.
If some one buys a second hand camera or lens, how do you know it, s a grey import ?. Would it be the serial number?.
 
If you were to go on holiday and purchase a camera body that was a lot cheaper than your home country but it went wrong 6 months later, you would have to pay for it to be fixed anyway. This would be the same as buying the cheapest grey imports without any sort of warranty.

By going to an importer that also offered some kind of warranty would give extra peace of mind in case anything goes wrong.
 
Rocket said:
If some one buys a second hand camera or lens, how do you know it, s a grey import ?. Would it be the serial number?.
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....No, it would not be determined by the serial number as ALL (I refer to Canon) cameras and lenses are manufactured by them in their established factories and part of their serial code identifies which factory. The camera/lenses then start their journey to distributors and/or retailers anywhere and everywhere throughout the world. Fundamentally, Canon UK and other *** UK organisations are merely national distributors whose best interests are served by operating a cartel. As they understandably don't want the price competition from 'grey' retailers they tend to try to diminish their reputation. Of course there are both good and bad grey importers and the bad ones, as always, can spoil the overall reputation.

If you are buying secondhand privately all you can do is ask the seller and hope that they either still have their purchase receipt as proof or don't tell you a lie. Most sellers here on TP Classifieds seem to be open about their product if it was a grey import.

Ironically, if you are buying secondhand from a retailer you have no way of knowing because retailers don't offer you proof of their purchase. So for example, I could trade in my grey imported product to a shop without needing to show my proof of purchase and they could sell it on.

The only thing to consider from wherever you buy is the warranty and aftersales service.

Personally, my first port of call for brand spanking new gear is the so-called 'grey' importer HDEW and then secondly 'non-grey' Wex Photographic. My experience with Park Cameras on several occasions is poor and so now I avoid buying from them.
 
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the main point is that there is unlikely to be warranty on a second item anyway (other than from the 2nd hand dealer) so its grey import or otherwise status is irrelevant.

RR is wrong though - grey imports are identifiabnle by their serial numbers because canon/nikon etc know which serial numbers they've shipped to which territories. (he's also wrong about the cartel thing , by the time a camera has been imported honestly with all tax and duty paid there is no real price competition with canon uk (etc) who after all have volume sales that no independent importer can match)
 
RedRobin said:
....Yes, very helpful and thanks for your clarification.

In the case of where I am happy to buy my so-called 'grey' products, the retailer provides a vat inclusive receipt, therefore exempting the purchaser from any responsibility. It is neither my business nor my moral concern how the supplier achieves such highly competitive and attractive retail prices. I think that it is often and unfairly assumed that it can only be as a result of not paying vat. Other factors such as price at source and low overheads are ignored by those retailers who are controlled by main UK distributors and also have much heavier overheads - They don't like the competition and consequently try to trash the reputation of their competitors by alleging that they are illegally avoiding/evading (or whatever you want to call it) vat. They operate a cartel.

Personally, I think that a vat rate of 20% is inequitable! But that is besides the point - That's just my opinion.
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Just come across this thread, are you saying that the items you bought from HDEW were supplied with a valid VAT receipt?

I find that very hard to believe!
 
Hdew will provide a Vat receipt if you ask for one - I've never got to the bottom of why they don't just provide them as a matter of course (unlike most grey importers Hdew are a bricks and mortar camera shop - in wallington surrey - so its not beyond the realms of possibility that they are VAT registered in the uk)

also they are importing grey items and then selling them on, rather than selling them from overseas and making the customer the importer so the usual issues about goods getting held at customs etc don't apply. (if any evasion was going on - and i'm not saying there is - it would be between them and HRC not the customer who buys in the UK ... this is virtually unique in the grey import scene)

this is why Hdew are generally more expensive than the overseas based grey importers
 
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RedRobin said:
....No, it would not be determined by the serial number as ALL (I refer to Canon) cameras and lenses are manufactured by them in their established factories and part of their serial code identifies which factory. The camera/lenses then start their journey to distributors and/or retailers anywhere and everywhere throughout the world. Fundamentally, Canon UK and other *** UK organisations are merely national distributors whose best interests are served by operating a cartel. As they understandably don't want the price competition from 'grey' retailers they tend to try to diminish their reputation. Of course there are both good and bad grey importers and the bad ones, as always, can spoil the overall reputation.

If you are buying secondhand privately all you can do is ask the seller and hope that they either still have their purchase receipt as proof or don't tell you a lie. Most sellers here on TP Classifieds seem to be open about their product if it was a grey import.

Ironically, if you are buying secondhand from a retailer you have no way of knowing because retailers don't offer you proof of their purchase. So for example, I could trade in my grey imported product to a shop without needing to show my proof of purchase and they could sell it on.

The only thing to consider from wherever you buy is the warranty and aftersales service.

Personally, my first port of call for brand spanking new gear is the so-called 'grey' importer HDEW and then secondly 'non-grey' Wex Photographic. My experience with Park Cameras on several occasions is poor and so now I avoid buying from them.
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Given that some grey suppliers deliberately mis label their product when they send it to you you could understand why the main dealers and importers would be somewhat annoyed and try to diminish the grey suppliers reputation. Why should they not try and do so. The grey suppliers and people who buy from them are, for the most part, knowingly evading import taxes on the basis that HRMC cannot devote the time to do anything about it. Import quantities from these suppliers simply aren't big enough to warrant the effort to stop it.

I have no issue with buying grey as its the personal choice of the individuals. But I do find it tedious when people then try and justify why they have evaded import taxes as I've seen on other threads about this subject. If people got a tax bill from HRMC I'm sure they would then be hypocritical enough to whinge about getting it and how unfair it is that they've been caught and others haven't.
 
big soft moose said:
...also they are importing grey items and then selling them on, rather than selling them from overseas and making the customer the importer...
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Not according to the T&Cs on their website:
"Please note that by making a purchase on this website you will be acting as the importer of the product for all purposes including all customs regulations,copyright and trademark laws.You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.By purchasing a product through this website you authorise us to make arrangements for clearance of customs on your behalf for the products you have ordered."
 
Hmm - thats changed, the last time i bought anything from them i went to surrey and collected it, so they were definitely the importer ... its possible they've changed practice to be more competitive with the offshore grey firms
 
big soft moose said:
Hmm - thats changed, the last time i bought anything from them i went to surrey and collected it, so they were definitely the importer ... its possible they've changed practice to be more competitive with the offshore grey firms
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Maybe that's the difference. If you buy on line (rather than visit/collect) you need to become the importer
 
I suspect they're just covering themselves, in case they need to import to order. It wouldn't stop me buying from them, given all the good things you hear about their service.
 
Survey results at 90% in favour of buying grey must be pretty depressing for anyone with camera shop
 
Just had a look on their website and on the home page it does state in store pick up is available by arrangement but there is no VAT number displayed anywhere on the site.
 
nog said:
Survey results at 90% in favour of buying grey must be pretty depressing for anyone with camera shop
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I doubt that any more than a tiny proportion of potential customers go the 'grey' route.
 
yep the vast majority of 'people in the street' will go with a known name like currys because they feel comfortable with the brand, or if they want to buy online they'll go with amazon (incidentally amazon have been caught sourcing grey stuff lately - vis sigma refusing cash back on amazon purchases), most people won't go with hdew/panamoz etc because they have no idea who they are or if they can trust them.

At the other end of the scale many pro's and busineses won't buy grey because if you are going to claim your purchase against pre tax income and submit receipts to HMRC, you don't want to be caught out on the goods not being properly tax paid. (also if you are VAT registered there is much less incentive to do so as you can claim back the VAT on a uk purchase , wheras a grey import with questionable vat status might give you problems)
 
big soft moose said:
the main point is that there is unlikely to be warranty on a second item anyway (other than from the 2nd hand dealer) so its grey import or otherwise status is irrelevant.
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....Of course. Some secondhand retailers issue their own, if somewhat limited, warranty and there are usually 'consumers rights' I think.



big soft moose said:
RR is wrong though - grey imports are identifiabnle by their serial numbers because canon/nikon etc know which serial numbers they've shipped to which territories.
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....I'm not wrong in the context of the question which Tony aka Rocket was asking (see quote immediately below) in that the purchaser would not be able to tell from the engraved serial number. Canon/Nikon etc would have to check specifically as you suggest.

Rocket said:
If some one buys a second hand camera or lens, how do you know it's a grey import ? Would it be the serial number?.
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big soft moose said:
(he's also wrong about the cartel thing , by the time a camera has been imported honestly with all tax and duty paid there is no real price competition with canon uk (etc) who after all have volume sales that no independent importer can match)
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....Just because a grey importer is able to undercut the prices set by Canon UK (etc) and also the prices offered by UK retailers who have large overheads, does not automatically mean that every grey importer is acting dishonestly. Especially those who supply a receipt which includes vat and who do not shift responsibility for import duties onto the purchaser via the smallprint. Any form of price dictation is by definition operating a cartel but I am not saying it's a sin to operate a cartel.

Eitherway, the bottom line is that it's fundamentally a free market and as consumers it's up to us as individuals what we feel happy about paying and to whom. Personally I am more than happy to buy from so-called 'grey' importer HDEW rather than from 'whiter-than-the-driven-snow' Park Cameras who have repeatedly given me poor service and have even charged me twice for the same camera body without informing me.
 
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I had a email back from HDew earlier today saying that they were not the same as DigitalRev as they were in Hong Kong and HDew were a UK company. How does HDew remain competitive with HK prices if they are not importing from there?
 
RedRobin said:
.. Especially those who supply a receipt which includes vat and who do not shift responsibility for import duties onto the purchaser via the smallprint. Any form of price dictation is by definition operating a cartel but I am not saying it's a sin to operate a cartel.
.
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Indeed - but how many grey importers don't do that - as has been pointed out #54 even Hdew do that.

On the latter point I'm not aware of any large camera manufacturer or national distributor dictating a price - hence why retailers are free to discount from the RRP if they wish (and can afford) to do so... I agree the service you've recieved from park sounds shocking but its not really typical of 'white' importers... personally my preference isfor WEX or Clifton if i'm buying new , or a grey importer on the rare occasions that the item is still significantly cheaper once tax and duty have been factored in at their propper rates
 
Tulipone said:
I had a email back from HDew earlier today saying that they were not the same as DigitalRev as they were in Hong Kong and HDew were a UK company. How does HDew remain competitive with HK prices if they are not importing from there?
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they are importing from there - its just that unlike Drev they are based in surrey - Digital Rev are based in hongkong iirc while panamoz are in kowloon and slr hut are in america (this does mean you have marginally more consumer protection as you could take them to a uk court if you had to (though my preference with a large purchase whether white or grey would be to use a credit card and let the CC company worry about that)
 
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Has anyone got the VAT number for HDEW?
 
Tulipone said:
I had a email back from HDew earlier today saying that they were not the same as DigitalRev as they were in Hong Kong and HDew were a UK company. How does HDew remain competitive with HK prices if they are not importing from there?
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....I think you will find that DigitalRev are usually cheaper than HDEW but I feel more secure buying from HDEW.

Amongst the 'white' suppliers I put my trust in Wex Photographic and have only had good experiences but who doesn't want to save money if they can?
 
admirable said:
Has anyone got the VAT number for HDEW?
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....Yes, it's printed on their customer receipt. I just checked :)

Also that vat is included at 20%.
 
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big soft moose said:
Hdew will provide a Vat receipt if you ask for one - I've never got to the bottom of why they don't just provide them as a matter of course (unlike most grey importers Hdew are a bricks and mortar camera shop - in wallington surrey - so its not beyond the realms of possibility that they are VAT registered in the uk)

also they are importing grey items and then selling them on, rather than selling them from overseas and making the customer the importer so the usual issues about goods getting held at customs etc don't apply. (if any evasion was going on - and i'm not saying there is - it would be between them and HRC not the customer who buys in the UK ... this is virtually unique in the grey import scene)

this is why Hdew are generally more expensive than the overseas based grey importers
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I thought they did, they have sent a vat invoice with everything I have purchased from them. Although that could be because I filled in the business details bit of the order forms. I have never requested a vat invoice from them but have always received one on the 6 maybe 7 orders that I have placed with them.
 
RedRobin said:
....Yes, it's printed on their customer receipt. I just checked :)

Also that vat is included at 20%.
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OK I give in, what is the number lol
 
RedRobin said:
....No, it would not be determined by the serial number as ALL (I refer to Canon) cameras and lenses are manufactured by them in their established factories and part of their serial code identifies which factory. The camera/lenses then start their journey to distributors and/or retailers anywhere and everywhere throughout the world.
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To me your reply to rocket reads that they (canon) don't know which serial numbers have gone where.
 
OldCarlos said:
To me your reply to rocket reads that they (canon) don't know which serial numbers have gone where.
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....Then my comment was ambiguous - Sorry. I think my subsequent reply made it clear what I meant :)
 
So no one has their VAT number then?
 
admirable said:
So no one has their VAT number then?
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....I already told you that my HDEW receipts had a vat # so why do you want to know it? Didn't you believe me?
 
RedRobin said:
....I already told you that my HDEW receipts had a vat # so why do you want to know it? Didn't you believe me?
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I did believe you but I can't see how they can bring these cameras into the country and still issue VAT invoices.
 
admirable said:
I did believe you but I can't see how they can bring these cameras into the country and still issue VAT invoices.
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And being in possession of a VAT receipt in no way suggests or proves that any Import Duty has been paid!
 
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