Buying a 'Grey' import camera body Yes or No?

should I buy an IMPORT camera body?

  • Yes

    Votes: 70 87.5%

  • No

    Votes: 10 12.5%
  • Total voters
    80
Mitzyboy said:
So far the level of service is fine
If the camera was faulty, it would be returned to them under normal UK law, and in any case most people pay by credit card which has its own protection

Theres too much greyness and misinformation about what you call grey imports. In most cases the product is the same ... apart from the price
You've only got to look on here about the duty and vat issues I guess.
Click to expand...

And therein lies the real nub of this issue - the tax treatment, which allegedly some suppliers will undervalue the product and rely upon a complicit customer to not pay the correct VAT. If a UK supplier has met their full fiscal obligations and can provide a quality service and is cheaper by eg having lower overheads then thats a free market with customer choice
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Life is all about choices with an element of luck thrown in..........
Click to expand...

It certainly is.

I'd buy a grey import with no hesitation.

I bought a grey import Kawasaki ZX9R in the late 90's from Germany.
Couldn't get the hang of left hand drive though.

I'm pretty sure if anyone could save a load of money and STILL get a warranty they'd do it.
Whatever they say here.
 
taxboy said:
And therein lies the real nub of this issue - the tax treatment, which allegedly some suppliers will undervalue the product and rely upon a complicit customer to not pay the correct VAT. If a UK supplier has met their full fiscal obligations and can provide a quality service and is cheaper by eg having lower overheads then thats a free market with customer choice
Click to expand...

I dont understand what you mean taxboy :)
The goods are declared on invoice from exporting country to the UK. The invoice value inspected by HMRC when the customs entry is made in the UK at the port.
If you are saying that they declare a lower value than the official Canon importers do, then maybe thats possible but then that would be the purchase value in China or the US or wherever. Some would say that the difference in sales price is soley down to the profits that Canon UK make, but I'd say its probably a combination.

Oooh ... got to go, HDEW have just delivered my camera in 3 days as promised. Will report later :)
 
Mitzyboy said:
and unless you actually smuggle the goods undeclared into the UK you cannot avoid paying that on import
Click to expand...

That seems to happen quite regularly though. Some of these sellers actually state they will reimburse you if the goods you've ordered (purchaser is the importer btw) get stopped & you have duty/tax to pay. Some also mis-describe the goods & undervalue them when sending out for delivery.
 
Mitzyboy said:
I dont understand what you mean taxboy :)
The goods are declared on invoice from exporting country to the UK. The invoice value inspected by HMRC when the customs entry is made in the UK at the port.
If you are saying that they declare a lower value than the official Canon importers do, then maybe thats possible but then that would be the purchase value in China or the US or wherever. Some would say that the difference in sales price is soley down to the profits that Canon UK make, but I'd say its probably a combination.

Oooh ... got to go, HDEW have just delivered my camera in 3 days as promised. Will report later :)
Click to expand...

For the sake of clarity my comments are not directed at any one supplier. However for many grey market imports the terms and conditions are that the customer acts as the importer
In these cases the responsible person for paying any import duty and VAT is the customer. It has been alleged that the overseas supplier on occasion will show a lower sales price than that actually paid by the customer. This will reduce the amount of the import duty and VAT and hence the overall purchase price.
In such cases the legal obligation rests with the customer to advise HMRC and pay the outstanding tax.

It is these circumstances that many people feel strongly when forum posters boast about how much money they have saved and why the grey market is a wonderful thing.
 
Okay

Camera arrived well packed, and in an unsealed box which I sort of expected

In the box is everything stated in the manual. The lead for the charger was in a different coloured bag than the charger, may mean nothing but probably inserted in the box when opened. It's unlikely that there was a lens in the box originally as in small print on one side it says lens not included. Everything else sealed and camera just like you would expect a new camera to look like. Serial number on box label matches serial number on camera

Everything sealed. Warantee card inside, extended to 3 years. Read through it and it seems to cover all but damage (obviously) and consumer replaceables.

Camera seems to be working fine in the limited 40 minutes or so I've had to play with it.
 
OldCarlos said:
That seems to happen quite regularly though. Some of these sellers actually state they will reimburse you if the goods you've ordered (purchaser is the importer btw) get stopped & you have duty/tax to pay. Some also mis-describe the goods & undervalue them when sending out for delivery.
Click to expand...

But in most cases with the suppliers discussed you are buying from a UK supplier duty paid, not buying from a foreign company such as the ones on ebay, so that doesnt apply

taxboy said:
For the sake of clarity my comments are not directed at any one supplier. However for many grey market imports the terms and conditions are that the customer acts as the importer
In these cases the responsible person for paying any import duty and VAT is the customer. It has been alleged that the overseas supplier on occasion will show a lower sales price than that actually paid by the customer. This will reduce the amount of the import duty and VAT and hence the overall purchase price.
In such cases the legal obligation rests with the customer to advise HMRC and pay the outstanding tax.

It is these circumstances that many people feel strongly when forum posters boast about how much money they have saved and why the grey market is a wonderful thing.
Click to expand...

Yes maybe, but possibly being a tax man (by your name on here :) ) you may possibly know that all this is monitored by HMRC in their statistics so goods were being misdeclared by the suppliers it would eventually be flagged. As it is, with these big importers, it would become fairly obvious fairly quickly. I'm unaware that in the examples we are talking about, that an individual would be held to account for the misdeclaration of commercial goods coming in to the UK.

I'm not boasting about getting a good deal, indeed I dont think I mentioned price, but it seems to me (not aimed at you) that people are often making up all kinds of reasons without any actual proof, for why someone shouldnt buy an imported item. You only have to google HDEW for instance to see that almost all people who deal with them are tremendously happy. There is also, to my knowledge, no actual proof that these companies are misdeclaring values to HMRC to enable them to sell at lower prices. As I said, maybe this is highlighting the profits that are being made by Canon UK
 
If HDEW were doing anything illegal surely HMRC would shut them down (at least their UK presence) or bring a lawsuit against them?

Is this correct or am I barking up the wrong tree?
 
GreenNinja67 said:
If HDEW were doing anything illegal surely HMRC would shut them down (at least their UK presence) or bring a lawsuit against them?

Is this correct or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Click to expand...
It's a good question.

There have been suggestions that HDEW's accounting practices are perhaps not as ... rigorous ... as might be desired. There have been allegations that the owners of HDEW are also behind one or more overseas-based traders on eBay who are facilitating the evasion of import duty and VAT. Some people find it ... curious ... that many of their prices are very similar to what you'd get if you deducted VAT from the mainstream retailers' prices. But nobody has any actual evidence of wrongdoing. And HMRC really do require evidence before they'll investigate. Realistically the only way such evidence could come to light (in the hypothetical case that HDEW actually are doing something illegal, of course) would be if an internal whistleblower were to produce it. But clearly that's not going to happen.
 
StewartR said:
It's a good question.

There have been suggestions that HDEW's accounting practices are perhaps not as ... rigorous ... as might be desired. There have been allegations that the owners of HDEW are also behind one or more overseas-based traders on eBay who are facilitating the evasion of import duty and VAT. Some people find it ... curious ... that many of their prices are very similar to what you'd get if you deducted VAT from the mainstream retailers' prices. But nobody has any actual evidence of wrongdoing. And HMRC really do require evidence before they'll investigate. Realistically the only way such evidence could come to light (in the hypothetical case that HDEW actually are doing something illegal, of course) would be if an internal whistleblower were to produce it. But clearly that's not going to happen.
Click to expand...

And the suggestions and allegations come from? Hmmmmm ... at a guess, the camera sales industry in the UK? :)

And meanwhile people just keep casting aspersions, even though there is, as you say, no proof. The difference between what I paid for my camera is far far more than the amoutn of VAT by the way, probably double. So does that stack up?

HMRC dont require evidence, they GET the evidence, and they wouldnt have to look far to discover under valuation of imports because they have all the statistics and figures at their fingertips.

Ahh well, the discussion will go on and on. Maybe .... just maybe, it might one day cause the "mainstream retailers" to drop their prices a little :)
 
Unfortunately the "mainstream UK retailers" are somewhat limited in the prices they charge. If anyone is to blame it's the manufacturers I would guess that need to lower their profit margins.
 
Bought a 5ds from panamoz saved a ton of money
when they come back from holiday im going to order a 16-35 f4 or maybe from hdew its £1 pound cheaper
 
Mitzyboy said:
And the suggestions and allegations come from? Hmmmmm ... at a guess, the camera sales industry in the UK? :)
Click to expand...
Actually, no.

You would have thought that the likes of WEx and Park Cameras would be really really interested in trying to stop the black [sic] market trade. But they don't seem to be particularly enthusiastic about doing so. I don't know why.
 
Mitzyboy said:
But in most cases with the suppliers discussed you are buying from a UK supplier duty paid, not buying from a foreign company such as the ones on ebay, so that doesnt apply
Click to expand...


I was replying to your comment; `..and unless you actually smuggle the goods undeclared into the UK you cannot avoid paying that on import...`
Which seems to be a fairly common issue, so you're not correct with that statement.

BTW, the thread title is about `buying from grey importers` not necessarily specific sellers mentioned in the thread.
 
StewartR said:
You would have thought that the likes of WEx and Park Cameras would be really really interested in trying to stop the black [sic] market trade. But they don't seem to be particularly enthusiastic about doing so. I don't know why.
Click to expand...
Maybe in reality they don't really have that much of an impact on their profits,
and see them more as an annoyance, than competition, if indeed they do see them as "Anything"?
 
Just here to say that I bought a grey import (D7100) in December 2014 and sold it a couple of months ago. Nothing wrong with it at all. I umm-ed and ahh-ed about buying a grey but, in the end, I'm not made of money and it saved me a couple of hundred quid.

And, about the warranties etc, it's good to have a UK camera for peace of mind, but, in reality, anything electrical that I've ever taken an extended warranty out on, I've never needed to use it.

I'd rather buy a grey import body and put the money towards good glass.
 
In an ideal world I'd much rather buy from UK business and support the local economy but the fact is the UK shops are selling the cameras second hand for more than they can be purchased for new with 3 years warranty, I can't see how many can justify that.

As for the new prices on the high end cameras thats a weeks wages for a lot of people and going with trusted sellers like hdew and panamoz they give a much longer warranty than say jessops.

As nice as it is to do everything the "ethical" way not everyone can justify the hundreds of pounds to do it.
 
JYC said:
Because the implication was clear



Grey importers can operate under EU law and pay their taxes, including some being mentioned in this thread.

And the ethical argument was clear. Tax evasion is bad for society, so don't support firms who practise it. I want to know whether
@Mr Bump supports firms who don't pay their fair share of taxes.
Click to expand...

They can - but very few do - of the ones mentioned in this thread only one (AFAIK) are vat registered

also are you sure Amazon, Google etc practice tax evasion (which is illegal) , as opposed to tax avoidance (which isnt) ?
 
Mitzyboy said:
The import duty on cameras to the UK is zero, import VAT is paid on import to the UK, based on the value of the goods, insurance, import duty (of which there wouldnt be any) and unless you actually smuggle the goods undeclared into the UK you cannot avoid paying that on import
"
Click to expand...

you can if you misdeclare the value and label the goods as low value toy parts , or if you send them without paying it and hope you don't get caught (but refund the few that are), two common grey import tactics - also duty is zero on cameras, its not on lenses
 
Last edited:
Blank_Canvas said:
Fully aware of the above, I have been in this game for over 30 years using Nikon. I got a D750 from Panamoz in Hong Kong under warranty. Nikon UK honoured it. They were unable to fix the problem after two attempts and gave me a brand new Nikon D750.(UK Stock) Now that's good service but I would expect nothing less.
Click to expand...

So Nikon Uk honoured the warranty despite Nikon saying oon their website that they don't :thinking: - I don't disbelieve you but you may have just got lucky because that very much isnt their stated policy
 
big soft moose said:
So Nikon Uk honoured the warranty despite Nikon saying oon their website that they don't :thinking: - I don't disbelieve you but you may have just got lucky because that very much isnt their stated policy
Click to expand...

I'm not the only one Pete, it's not just down to Lady Luck, there were loads of people who had the internal flare issue fixed by Nikon UK that purchased from Panamoz, HDEW etc, If you put the serial number on the Nikon webpage and it was effected they they fixed it. Mine developed a circuit fault in their hands which if didn't have before so if ended up going back three times. In the end they give gave me a new replacement.
 
big soft moose said:
They can - but very few do - of the ones mentioned in this thread only one (AFAIK) are vat registered

also are you sure Amazon, Google etc practice tax evasion (which is illegal) , as opposed to tax avoidance (which isnt) ?
Click to expand...

I never claimed they evaded. What I said is that I don't think they pay their fair share and I think most would agree with me.
 
studioworks said:
the fact is the UK shops are selling the cameras second hand for more than they can be purchased for new with 3 years warranty, I can't see how many can justify that.
Click to expand...

Thing is, the prices for pre owned cameras (or any other equipment) depends on where they were purchased & new price paid originally (+ demand of course)

Look at it the other way round. UK sellers are being undercut by cheaper imports. It's the importers from outside the EU that don't have anywhere near the same overheads & costs, nor contribute little to the UK economy, that have skewed the market, not the other way round.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the prices btw, just the reasons. :cool:
 
OldCarlos said:
Thing is, the prices for pre owned cameras (or any other equipment) depends on where they were purchased & new price paid originally (+ demand of course)

Look at it the other way round. UK sellers are being undercut by cheaper imports. It's the importers from outside the EU that don't have anywhere near the same overheads & costs, nor contribute little to the UK economy, that have skewed the market, not the other way round.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the prices btw, just the reasons. :cool:
Click to expand...

Yea I can understand the reasons and I actually much prefer a face to face purchase than mail order, I always look first for second hand but. The camera im looking at currently is going for the same price in mint condition second hand and only about 10% less average condition as i can get it new from panamoz. I just cant justify buying a used camera with no warranty for the same price as new with 3 years warranty.
 
I understand totally (y)

I was replying to;

studioworks said:
I can't see how many can justify that.
Click to expand...

I also try to use my local shop as much as poss & have bought 3 or 4 bodies & a few lenses etc from them, but I've also bought a couple of items `grey`. :cool:

Edit to add, lots of dealers won't take grey stuff in as part ex & buyers usually want to pay less if selling privately. No problem if you keep your gear for quite a while, but it can lessen the £ saving gap considerably.
 
Last edited:
OldCarlos said:
I understand totally (y)

I was replying to;



I also try to use my local shop as much as poss & have bought 3 or 4 bodies & a few lenses etc from them, but I've also bought a couple of items `grey`. :cool:

Edit to add, lots of dealers won't take grey stuff in as part ex & buyers usually want to pay less if selling privately. No problem if you keep your gear for quite a while, but it can lessen the £ saving gap considerably.
Click to expand...

Well I'm changing from Canon to Nikon just for this body so I'm hoping I will be keeping it more than long enough not to worry... Famous last words.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
I'm not the only one Pete, it's not just down to Lady Luck, there were loads of people who had the internal flare issue fixed by Nikon UK that purchased from Panamoz, HDEW etc, If you put the serial number on the Nikon webpage and it was effected they they fixed it. Mine developed a circuit fault in their hands which if didn't have before so if ended up going back three times. In the end they give gave me a new replacement.
Click to expand...

Ahh but asnt the internal flare issue one of those "holy s*** a known fault" things you sometimes see with new cameras (like the focussing thing on the 1DS3 and the oil spots on the D600) which the manufacturer is keen to eliminate across their market .. its not quite the same thing as developing an individual warranty fault like a shutter failure or similar (on the latter point if it develops another fault in their hands of course they should fix or replace it regardless of territory - again not quite the same thing as it developing a fault like that while in your hands)
 
JYC said:
I never claimed they evaded. What I said is that I don't think they pay their fair share and I think most would agree with me.
Click to expand...

This is true but the argument that you can't criticise an illegal practice if you use a company that's doing something legal but not entirely ethical is somewhat spurious, its like saying you can't say that badger baiting is wrong if you sometimes eat dutch pork, or that you can't criticise someone from driving an MOT failure if you drive VW... it just doesn't stack up

Yes google and amazon etc should pay their fair share - but the onus in preventing avoidance is on HMRC/Govt to close all the loop holes. Where grey importers are evading (through misdeclaration or send and hope etc) HMRC have already made the playing field level but the importer is breaking the rules to get round them

Incidentally a good indicator of send and hope is when they say on their website " we will refund any customs charges if necessary" - if everything was being properly declared customs charges would be part of the price as a matter of course, so what they are implicitly saying is "our parcel probably won't get caught but if it does we'll pay the charges you as the importer are liable for"

It is also worth noting that I have asked three grey importers if they'll refund customs charges if I voluntarily declare the value of the parcel to HMRC - to date none of them have come back saying "yes that's absolutely fine" which to me speaks volumes
 
big soft moose said:
It is also worth noting that I have asked three grey importers if they'll refund customs charges if I voluntarily declare the value of the parcel to HMRC - to date none of them have come back saying "yes that's absolutely fine" which to me speaks volumes
Click to expand...
I've done the same, with the same result.
 
big soft moose said:
It is also worth noting that I have asked three grey importers if they'll refund customs charges if I voluntarily declare the value of the parcel to HMRC - to date none of them have come back saying "yes that's absolutely fine" which to me speaks volumes
Click to expand...

Can you explain that further? A corporate body, such as the ones we are discussing, pays the VAT on import. The value on the invoice from the supplier to the UK "grey importer" is a financial transaction between the two companies. HMRC will not actually approach the end user for any VAT, it will be an issue between the the supplier, the importer and HMRC and it will probably be the UK seller that is penalised. You aren't the importer, you have bought a camera from a UK company. Now on the issue of invoice values, I'm not sure we are aware of actually how much (for instance) Canon UK pay to Canon Far East for their camera stock. We dont know either how much the "grey importers" pay their suppliers. So we are taking a huge leap to assume that the grey importer suppliers are misdeclaring invoice values. Just suppose that the difference in Uk sales prices is down to excessive profits by the mainstream supplier chain. It's a possibility isn't it, we cant deny that :)

Oh and someone mentioned grey importes "by proxy" earlier :). If that was aimed at me, I have nothing to do with any camera company. I'm just someone who has bought imported cameras in the past and also has experience of the HMRC side of things. It's a discussion, and we all have different points of view, which is fine.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top