Buying a medium format camera

foodpoison

foodpoison

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Sean
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So, I'm in the market for a medium format camera.

I can probably spend around £250.

I will add right here, right now, that I know next to nothing about medium format cameras. They are all very, very new to me.

I'm looking at either the Bronica SQ-A (Cherryrig on here has one and his photographs are beautiful, but then that's probably just him :p) or the Mamiya RB67.

I've seen the Bronica SQ-A complete on ffordes (that's body, 120 back, prism and 80mm lens) for £250, and the SQ-A seems to go for slightly cheaper than the RB67.

So, how about some advice? Which is easier to use? Which is 'better'? Which system is easier to get hold of parts? etc!

(p.s I wouldn't say no to some random snippets of info that might be useful, either :p Where to get film processed? Printed or scanned (or both)?)
 
pssst, I think you might find cherryrig is a lady tog :)

I'm not an expert on the bronny and it does seem like a great bit of kit. The Mamiya RB is a hefty bit of kit. I think, from memory, that they are both square format too? (someone will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure) Have a look at the various makes and models and decide what format would suit you. The Bronny, RB, and the Mamiya 645 which is a bit smaller and lighter and should fit your budget.

For film developing I use DS Colour Labs in Manchester.

Hope that helps.
 
Plenty of threads about developing, scanning etc so I'll let you get acquainted with the search function;).

I'm in the SQA camp and I love my camera but if I had your money (I didn't when I started and got mine cheaper from america) I'd be tempted to look at the Mamiya. The one reason for that is longevity. Mamiya are still alive and Bronica aren't so I would assume that the Mamiya is easier to support than the Bronica.

I've no idea about using a Mamiya though but I'm sure there some threads on here commenting on the weight of the thing, the Bronica isn't exactly light so the Mamiya must be a beast!

Although I got mine off eBay some of the prices on there are crazy and it certainly adds a bit of piece of mind having the 6 month guaruntee (never can spell that word) from somewhere like ffordes.

Not sure what else I can add other than I hope your tripod is effing sturdy. If yo've got any specific questions about the SQA just ask. Have you thought about the etrs cameras?
 
Have you handled an RB? They are quite heavy.

Depends on where and how you intend using it, handheld the SQ get's my vote, on a tripod the RB gets it.

Maybe out of budget but take a look at the Mamiya 7 (yes I'm a bit biased)
Just like a big 35mm slr, no exchangeable backs though, but one of the best 43mm wide angles ever.

Last time I had colour film processed it was by http://www.lab35imaging.com/

Clean slides, well sleeved and a quick turnaround, never tried their scanning as I have my own Nikon 120 Film scanner.
 
AliB said:
I think, from memory, that they are both square format too? (someone will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure)
Click to expand...

Sorry, you're wrong...it depends on the back you attach to the RB, they were avail from 6 x 4.5 up to 6 x 8, what is available now...different story.

An ex used to have an SQ-A - she used to turn it on it's side a lot...it's a square format, how that used to annoy me!
 
The RB67 is a 6X7 camera with the standard back, so not square format , but there are different format backs available for it, including 6X6 and of course Polaroid. There are digital backs available for i ttoo but I don't suppose that is a consideration.;)

The bellows focusing and revolving back make the RB67 a bit uinique. If I was really pushed to choose, it's probably my all time favourite camera.
 
I knew there was something about the format on the RB! :)

I knew someone would correct that too ha ha ha........
 
It's cos you're a Hassy person now Ali. ;)

There were three flavours of the RB67

Pro (1st version) Very easy to accidentally double expose shots. I'd avoid it.

Pro S. Virtually impossible to accidentally double expose.

Pro SD. Redesigned mag back and new lens mount to take new lenses. There's an adapter to fit the new lenses to the Pro and Pro S.

250 quid should get you a very tidy one so be a bit choosy.
 
That rotating back on the Mamiya is definately a plus I reckon. Put a 6x4.5 back on an SQA and you have to rotate the camera 90 degrees like you would and SLR excpet iw weighs twice as much and really isn't designed to use that way roud.

I'd love to add a mamiya to the collection if I had the money.
 
I love my ProS, but I was very fortunate in buying a mint version off a gent who'd only used it a few times for amateur studio work and it came with the 120/220 power back.

I't s a a very modular camera Kev, so you could actually get one a bit at a time, although if you check the bay, they often go for daft money complete.

Much as I love the 'blad, I think it would have to go before the RB. :love:
 
CT said:
There's an adapter to fit the new lenses to the Pro and Pro S.
Click to expand...

It's an adaptor to fit the older lenses to the newer Pro SD which has a larger diameter lens mount.

The RB67 is a great camera. I can happily use it hand held with the left hand grip but you would need to try one yourself if that's how you intend to use it as it is heavy. Heavy is a good thing as it increases inertia and reduces camera shake.

I prefer to use the waist level finder with mine. With the rotating back there is never any need to rotate the camera.

I also have a Bronica ETRS and based on this, I would assume the SQ would be a good choice too.


Kev M said:
Anyone live near Maidstone? Check out pages 2 and 3 of the police auction site!
Click to expand...

My RB67 came from West Yokshire Police photographic department. It had been well looked after and some of it appeared to have not been used.





Steve.
 
I've also got an RB, and it is heavy, but just about handholdable. Loads of lenses available and its built like a tank, you have to do something really stupid to break it.

One positive is that the polaroid back exposes a 7x7 so you almost get a perfect picture on the fuji pack film.

Make sure you get the tripod bushing if you buy one, I didn't and its a right pain.:puke:
 
raathistle said:
One positive is that the polaroid back exposes a 7x7 so you almost get a perfect picture on the fuji pack film.

.:puke:
Click to expand...

So what's the make of Polaroid back of choice to go for for availabilty of film? There seems to be lot of different types.
 
I can't really help on which model to get as I got mine with the camera and don't know what model it is?

I have this model LINK
 
No probs -I think that answers the question. (y)
 
I think it's fairly definitive then! the RB67 (Pro S) is the one for me.
I'm looking at selling a bunch of stuff on, hopefully to fund this purchase, but I can see my car's MOT eating into those funds :(

However.
I have a few questions to ask:

1. What is the difference between a 120 and a 220 mag? (I know I could google it, but it's easier being able to bounce questions off of people if it doesn't make sense :p)
2. CT, you talk about bellows focusing. Does this mean the focussing is done in the lens, or by the bellows? :thinking:
3. Revolving back, I'm assuming that just swaps it from 6x7 to 7x6?
4. I'm not seeing many lenses go past 40mm. What would be the standard of the camera? (i.e. 50mm is the standard for 35mm traditional)
5. I'm not that fussed about a prism viewfinder thingy, but I'm assuming the body comes with one of those split-focus waist level finders? i.e. the thing you can see that's popped up on the top of the body in this picture:
9655_1.JPG


That's about all for the time being but I'm looking forward to the next round of Q and A's :p
 
120 film is the standar MF film size, 220 is twice as long (so 20 shots with the RB instead of 10) but with no backing paper. 220 is pretty hard to get hold of though so just go for the 120 backs.

Bellows focusing means that instead of internal elements in the lens rearranging themselves the whole thing moves back and forth on a set of light tight bellows. With the Rb you can do pretty near macro stuff with standard lenses with no other equipment, you just have to remember to factor in the bellows to the exposure. Its pretty cool as it means you can focus really tight and the next frame go to infinity focus without doing anything other than turning th focus knob

Revolving back does exactly that, meaning you dont have to rotate the camera to go from portrait to landscape and vice versa, useful as this is heavy gear

Standard is 90mm or so, 50 is wide(!), 35 is fisheye, 180 is about 90-100mm equivalent

The waist level finder is the thing on the top, its basically a shade around a ground glass focusing screen, usually with a flip up magnifier to enable finer focusing
 
Thanks for the replies Chris.

I know this is a question that will probably be more suited to when I actually have the camera, but when you talk about factoring in the bellows for the exposure, what do you mean?
 
If your belows are over a certain length then it reduces the intensity of the light getting to the film. You basically need to add to the exposure, and there is a handy scale on the side of the camera which lets you know how much to add. It only really matters when doing pretty close work though
 
Something you should be aware of is how shallow the DOF is compared to your current camera and how bloody difficult it can be to nail focus. I've just been going through some shots with a model where the hair is pin sharp about level with the ears and the eyes are soft. Overall the image is alright but it'd get ripped apart on here for softness.

Every time you move you have to re-focus and I'm not 100% confident there isn't a conflict between my glasses, the magnifier or eye-piece on the prism and the ground glass. With a horizontal split screen it can be hard to nail the focus and vertical split would be better. When you're shooting from a tripod it's a pain in the arse turning the camera on it's side to change the direction of the split.

Don't let it put you off just be warned about how hard it is.
 
raathistle said:
If your belows are over a certain length then it reduces the intensity of the light getting to the film. You basically need to add to the exposure, and there is a handy scale on the side of the camera which lets you know how much to add. It only really matters when doing pretty close work though
Click to expand...

There is some maths behind this which you may or may not care about.

Basically, the F stop setting of a lens is equal to the focal length of the lens divided by the diameter of the aperture,

So if you take the standard 90mm lens, at f8 it has an aperture diameter of 11.25mm

If you now extend the bellows by another 90mm to get a close object in focus then you have effectively turned the lens int a 180mm one.

If you are still set at f8 then the aperture diameter is still 11.25mm however, the actual f stop is now 180/11.25 = f16

This means you need to give an extra 2 stops of exposure.



Steve.
 
Kev M said:
Something you should be aware of is how shallow the DOF is compared to your current camera and how bloody difficult it can be to nail focus. I've just been going through some shots with a model where the hair is pin sharp about level with the ears and the eyes are soft. Overall the image is alright but it'd get ripped apart on here for softness.

Every time you move you have to re-focus and I'm not 100% confident there isn't a conflict between my glasses, the magnifier or eye-piece on the prism and the ground glass. With a horizontal split screen it can be hard to nail the focus and vertical split would be better. When you're shooting from a tripod it's a pain in the arse turning the camera on it's side to change the direction of the split.

Don't let it put you off just be warned about how hard it is.
Click to expand...

All part of the fun :)
 
foodpoison said:
I think it's fairly definitive then! the RB67 (Pro S) is the one for me.
I'm looking at selling a bunch of stuff on, hopefully to fund this purchase, but I can see my car's MOT eating into those funds :(

However.
I have a few questions to ask:

2. CT, you talk about bellows focusing. Does this mean the focussing is done in the lens, or by the bellows? :thinking:
Click to expand...

It depends:-

Some lenses, like the 90mm 'standard' lens have no focusing ring on the lens at all, and focusing is done entirely with the bellows.

Some others like the 50mm f4.5 have a floating lens element which needs to be focused independently of the bellows, and for this reason there's a focusing ring on the lens barrel. The drill with these lenses is :- focus in the viewfinder using the bellows, then set the lens scale to the distance focused at by estimation. Looking through the viewfinder while focusing the floating element doesn't help, as you'll see no difference at all. What it does though, is ensure that the image is sharp right out to the corners. People not understanding this 2nd focusing step is the main reason for these lenses getting a bad rep. If it sounds like it's easy to forget the 2nd focusing step - it is. ;)

5. I'm not that fussed about a prism viewfinder thingy, but I'm assuming the body comes with one of those split-focus waist level finders? i.e. the thing you can see that's popped up on the top of the body in this picture:
9655_1.JPG


That's about all for the time being but I'm looking forward to the next round of Q and A's :p
Click to expand...

If you buy a complete camera it's almost certain to come with the standard waist level finder shown above. Just be careful of buying a body only as it varies enormously as to what you're likely to get. It probably wont come with a finder and may or may not come with the revolving back adapter to which the film mag attaches.

I'd have no qualms about buying bits for this camera separately as it's very modular and it would be a good way of getting a nice one together - you just need to understand the parts involved to be complete.
 
AliB said:
pssst, I think you might find cherryrig is a lady tog :)
Click to expand...

:thinking::bat::bat:

Oi oi!!

I'm not a ladyyyyyyy :LOL:

How rude

Haven't really read through the rest of the thread but just depends if you want something a little more portable. If so then SQ-A as the body and everything is a bit smaller

End of the day just depends on what your looking for in a the MF camera. Both are going to give you so much picture than a 35mm camera, yea 6x7 is goin to have more image than 6x6, and people say 6x7 has a very similar ratio to 5x4 camera :shrug:
 
Sorry cherryrig, my mistake. Please don't take offence :)
 
CT said:
It depends:-

1. Some lenses, like the 90mm 'standard' lens have no focusing ring on the lens at all, and focusing is done entirely with the bellows.

Some others like the 50mm f4.5 have a floating lens element which needs to be focused independently of the bellows, and for this reason there's a focusing ring on the lens barrel. The drill with these lenses is :- focus in the viewfinder using the bellows, then set the lens scale to the distance focused at by estimation. 2. Looking through the viewfinder while focusing the floating element doesn't help, as you'll see no difference at all. What it does though, is ensure that the image is sharp right out to the corners. People not understanding this 2nd focusing step is the main reason for these lenses getting a bad rep. If it sounds like it's easy to forget the 2nd focusing step - it is. ;)

If you buy a complete camera it's almost certain to come with the standard waist level finder shown above. Just be careful of buying a body only as it varies enormously as to what you're likely to get. It probably wont come with a finder and may or may not come with the revolving back adapter to which the film mag attaches.

3. I'd have no qualms about buying bits for this camera separately as it's very modular and it would be a good way of getting a nice one together - you just need to understand the parts involved to be complete.
Click to expand...

1. Oh, that sounds far easier than this '2 part focusing'

2. How come you won't be able to notice a difference looking through the viewfinder? Or is it something that I'll recognise as soon as I get the camera :p

3. Well, I've seen body onlys w/ WLF for around £100-£150.
I've seen the 120 backs and revolving adaptors for around £80-£150, and lenses the same.
Hence the desire to get a complete, just to get me started.

Body only with WLF and what looks like the revolving back
Complete with lens, back, finder, body, only £100 more.

See my point?
If you buy complete you seem to get a lot more for your money.
 
cherryrig said:
:thinking::bat::bat:

Oi oi!!

I'm not a ladyyyyyyy :LOL:

How rude

Haven't really read through the rest of the thread but just depends if you want something a little more portable. If so then SQ-A as the body and everything is a bit smaller

End of the day just depends on what your looking for in a the MF camera. Both are going to give you so much picture than a 35mm camera, yea 6x7 is goin to have more image than 6x6, and people say 6x7 has a very similar ratio to 5x4 camera :shrug:
Click to expand...

I'm not really worried about portability. I don't ever look to handheld the camera.
If I'm honest I'm not bothered between 6x6 or 6x7.
 
The only thing that is concerning me is the cost.

Looking at SQ-A it tends to be that much cheaper in comparison to RB67 equipment.

Knowing I can find a complete RB67 for around the same price as a complete SQ-A is reassuring, but separate bits are more expensive.
 
foodpoison said:
2. How come you won't be able to notice a difference looking through the viewfinder? Or is it something that I'll recognise as soon as I get the camera :p
Click to expand...

You don't see a difference in the viewfinder because the lens is already bellows- focused, so the focus adjustment on the lens is simply to adjust the floating element so that the image is sharp right out to the edges. With these lenses you don't get optimum sharpness if you miss this step. It wont be a problem with the 90mm lens or any lens without the floating element.
3. Well, I've seen body onlys w/ WLF for around £100-£150.
I've seen the 120 backs and revolving adaptors for around £80-£150, and lenses the same.
Hence the desire to get a complete, just to get me started.

Body only with WLF and what looks like the revolving back
Complete with lens, back, finder, body, only £100 more.

See my point?
If you buy complete you seem to get a lot more for your money.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not sure I'd agree - prices vary enormously I find. Having said that, it is more convenient to buy a complete camera. That camera in your second link looks well tidy for the money, but you'd just have to think about import duty from Taiwan which could give you a big hit on the cost.

Take your time I'd say and keep checking listings. Watch out for and avoid the really battered ones. The RB67 was the chosen studio weapon of more studio photographers than any other make, purely because of it's adaptability, but some of them have had a serious pro battering. Looked after ones tend to show in the general appearance.
 
Just as a quick qualifier to CTs comment about battered pro used ones, thats what mine is. However the guy looked after it well (!) and although the paint is chipped everything mechanically is perfect. I got lucky though because I went to see it before buying it. The only problem is one of the portrait orientation guide flaps on the WLF doesn't always pop up but its no biggie
 
Fair comment there from raa - often pro ones have been regularly serviced, but it's not always the case, and often they've changed hands and suffered neglect from subsequent owners.

I'd be very wary of one like THIS :eek:

Be interesting to see what it goes for. The twin cable release looks OK and they're pretty rare - and expensive!
 
Your first port of call should be to decide what you are going to use MF for - if you want city scapes or architecture thena standard lens is nowhere near wide enough and your budget will have to be much bigger to take on a 40 or 50mm lens.

Once you have some idea of your requirements then take a look on www.mxv.co.uk - they supplied my Bonica ETR-Si, with 75mm std lens, waist level finder and 120 back in exceptional condition and warranted for the price they were typically fecting on ebay. I've since added a 150mm lens and another back, so i'm now over £300 outley and still don;t have a wide angle for city use (i'll need another £250 to add that glassware ).
 
CT said:
The twin cable release looks OK and they're pretty rare - and expensive!
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Looks like a pretty good polaroid back with the P adaptor as well, plus a metered prism.

Thats like the one I bought, but I went to check it out before bidding. If its all in good nick and working:cautious: this is a perfect kit
 
CT said:
You don't see a difference in the viewfinder because the lens is already bellows- focused, so the focus adjustment on the lens is simply to adjust the floating element so that the image is sharp right out to the edges. With these lenses you don't get optimum sharpness if you miss this step. It wont be a problem with the 90mm lens or any lens without the floating element.


Well, I'm not sure I'd agree - prices vary enormously I find. Having said that, it is more convenient to buy a complete camera. That camera in your second link looks well tidy for the money, but you'd just have to think about import duty from Taiwan which could give you a big hit on the cost.

Take your time I'd say and keep checking listings. Watch out for and avoid the really battered ones. The RB67 was the chosen studio weapon of more studio photographers than any other make, purely because of it's adaptability, but some of them have had a serious pro battering. Looked after ones tend to show in the general appearance.
Click to expand...

I think it's going to be something that I'll have to see to figure out. :thinking:

That's the only problem with the second one. I have to agree, taking time in this is going to be a necessity.

I'm a bit away from buying yet, I just want to be fully prepared and not rush into it.
 
What type of photographic images are you looking to take?
 
If I'm honest I'm not bothered between 6x6 or 6x7.
Click to expand...

Sounds about the same doesn't it. IT'S NOT!!

There is something about shooting square that just makes you think in a totally different box to any of the rectangular formats. Of course you can crop back down from a 6*6 and anyone who has one will do a fair bit but there is something about nailing a shot with a square that feels way better in my book.

The SQ (the B is a great camera too btw) or the RB are both going to be a joy to use so it's win/win from here on in. (y)
 
chivers67 said:
What type of photographic images are you looking to take?
Click to expand...

Portraits, Still Life, Cityscapes and Landscapes.

Why does that matter though?

Dazza, what do you mean by the B?

I'm still feeling torn between the SQ-A and the RB67!

I think I'm going to have to handle both to see which I prefer, although I do like the availability of Mamiya parts and the idea of the bellows focussing.
 
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